Republican Presidential Debate (28 Nov)

[Dos Equis]

I only saw excerpts, but my two cents:

- Romney looked and sounded awful when trying to answer a question about his flip flop on gays in the military.  I was not impressed.  Looked and sounded flat out dishonest. 

- McCain actually showed some life and didn't look like a corpse for a change. 

- I think I understand why Paul hasn't made much movement.  As Bill Bennett said:  "Paul just does not come off convincing or presidential."  I agree.  He seems too soft.  Looks good on paper, but does not present himself well.  He'd be much stronger if he had Romney's presence.

- Overall, I still believe the top contenders are miles ahead of Hillary.   

Some info on last night's debate:

Scorecard from CNN commentators.  Bill Bennett thinks Romney won.    http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/debates/scorecard/youtube.debate.112807/

Debate summary:  http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/11/28/debate.main/index.html

Anderson Cooper's interviews with the commentators:  http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0711/28/acd.01.html

Looks like Huckabee, Romney, and McCain came out ahead, although there was some criticism of Huckabee:

COOPER: Jeffrey, who do you think had a good night?

TOOBIN: Well, you know, I think Mike Huckabee is clearly the best debater in this group. I mean, he is someone who is very charming and funny and articulate.

But, you know, if he's going to be a serious candidate, he's going to have to start answering serious questions, like calling for the abolition of the Internal Revenue Service. Well, no one likes to pay taxes. But I mean, what serious person thinks you can get rid of the Internal Revenue Service? What's the government going to make its money on?

I mean, just -- you know, that's -- I think if you want to be a serious candidate, I think you've got to say serious things. And you can't sound like Ron Paul, who is still on national television, talking about a trans-international highway that some secret forces are planning between Mexico and Canada, that is a figment of his imagination.

I mean, I think, you know, people need to address the facts of what they say. And Huckabee's got to explain what he -- what he means to do by getting rid of the IRS.

CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, can I ask -- just Jeffrey's point, I agree with him. I think we all agree Huckabee did have a good night, but -- but he was -- I mean, he got a lot of lay-up questions. You asked a preacher to talk about the Bible, and he's going to hit it out of the ballpark.

He is extremely likable. I mean, that's his gift. But he does have to get beyond that, beyond the charm, and get deeper into the issues. And -- and I don't think the other candidates really pressed him that hard for reasons that he is so likable. It's hard to go after him. And if you go after him too much, do you then elevate him even further at a time when he does seem to be taking off in terms of the polls?

[Hugo Chavez]

I only saw excerpts, but my two cents:

- Romney looked and sounded awful when trying to answer a question about his flip flop on gays in the military.  I was not impressed.  Looked and sounded flat out dishonest. 

- McCain actually showed some life and didn't look like a corpse for a change. 

- I think I understand why Paul hasn't made much movement.  As Bill Bennett said:  "Paul just does not come off convincing or presidential."  I agree.  He seems too soft.  Looks good on paper, but does not present himself well.  He'd be much stronger if he had Romney's presence.

- Overall, I still believe the top contenders are miles ahead of Hillary.   

Some info on last night's debate:

Scorecard from CNN commentators.  Bill Bennett thinks Romney won.    http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/debates/scorecard/youtube.debate.112807/

Debate summary:  http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/11/28/debate.main/index.html

Anderson Cooper's interviews with the commentators:  http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0711/28/acd.01.html

Looks like Huckabee, Romney, and McCain came out ahead, although there was some criticism of Huckabee:

COOPER: Jeffrey, who do you think had a good night?

TOOBIN: Well, you know, I think Mike Huckabee is clearly the best debater in this group. I mean, he is someone who is very charming and funny and articulate.

But, you know, if he's going to be a serious candidate, he's going to have to start answering serious questions, like calling for the abolition of the Internal Revenue Service. Well, no one likes to pay taxes. But I mean, what serious person thinks you can get rid of the Internal Revenue Service? What's the government going to make its money on?

I mean, just -- you know, that's -- I think if you want to be a serious candidate, I think you've got to say serious things. And you can't sound like Ron Paul, who is still on national television, talking about a trans-international highway that some secret forces are planning between Mexico and Canada, that is a figment of his imagination.

I mean, I think, you know, people need to address the facts of what they say. And Huckabee's got to explain what he -- what he means to do by getting rid of the IRS.

CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, can I ask -- just Jeffrey's point, I agree with him. I think we all agree Huckabee did have a good night, but -- but he was -- I mean, he got a lot of lay-up questions. You asked a preacher to talk about the Bible, and he's going to hit it out of the ballpark.

He is extremely likable. I mean, that's his gift. But he does have to get beyond that, beyond the charm, and get deeper into the issues. And -- and I don't think the other candidates really pressed him that hard for reasons that he is so likable. It's hard to go after him. And if you go after him too much, do you then elevate him even further at a time when he does seem to be taking off in terms of the polls?

You have got to be kidding...  Paul doesn't look presidential?...BLAAAAA Well, unless you're into the liar dishonest look, he's the most presidential out of all of them... And McCain, I appreciate his question on torture, but looked alive? not really... Check that look after 5 years   The guy is older than dirt and I think it shows in him.

[Dos Equis]

You have got to be kidding...  Paul doesn't look presidential?...BLAAAAA Well, unless you're into the liar dishonest look, he's the most presidential out of all of them... And McCain, I appreciate his question on torture, but looked alive? not really... Check that look after 5 years   The guy is older than dirt and I think it shows in him.

No, he really doesn't.  I think Bill Bennett is right.  Paul has no stage presence at all.  I think that is part of the reason Romney is so far ahead of Paul, despite flipping on so many issues.  Same with Huckabee.  He has great presence and is very engaging.  I've said previously that Paul has not sold himself very well, like Wes Clark.  I think his lack of presence is one of the primary reasons. 

McCain looked pretty feisty to me.  Check back next week though.  Might have been Viagra or something.      

[Hugo Chavez]

No, he really doesn't.  I think Bill Bennett is right.  Paul has no stage presence at all.  I think that is part of the reason Romney is so far ahead of Paul, despite flipping on so many issues.  Same with Huckabee.  He has great presence and is very engaging.  I've said previously that Paul has not sold himself very well, like Wes Clark.  I think his lack of presence is one of the primary reasons. 

McCain looked pretty feisty to me.  Check back next week though.  Might have been Viagra or something.      

I will agree that Huckabee has a great presence.  He comes across very well.  But none of the others do and Mitt/Giuliani come across as total scumbags.  But you're wrong about Ron Paul, he has an odd manner about him which taken alone could seem unpresidential, but looking at his overall charisma, so many other factors pump up the appearance and that's what you fail to see.  The appearance of honesty alone is a dynamo that many of the other candates struggle to get and fail.  You listen to Ron Paul and you're left believing he believes exactly what he just said and no other candidate carries that as well as Ron Paul--a trait in a president America is desperately thirsty for.  I think Americans are willing to look past a little awkwardness for the "Right Stuff" example: Lincoln, who had a lot of awkwardness to him... Example (for Republicans, not me): George W. Bush, who is about as unpresidential as it has ever gotten.

[Dos Equis]

I will agree that Huckabee has a great presence.  He comes across very well.  But none of the others do and Mitt/Giuliani come across as total scumbags.  But you're wrong about Ron Paul, he has an odd manner about him which taken alone could seem unpresidential, but looking at his overall charisma, so many other factors pump up the appearance and that's what you fail to see.  The appearance of honesty alone is a dynamo that many of the other candates struggle to get and fail.  You listen to Ron Paul and you're left believing he believes exactly what he just said and no other candidate carries that as well as Ron Paul--a trait in a president America is desperately thirsty for.  I think Americans are willing to look past a little awkwardness for the "Right Stuff" example: Lincoln, who had a lot of awkwardness to him... Example (for Republicans, not me): George W. Bush, who is about as unpresidential as it has ever gotten.

I agree in part.  Honesty and sincerity, or at least the appearance of those qualities, does help a public speaker quite a bit.  But I'm not wrong about my opinion.  My opinion is what it is.  Some (like you) obviously have a different opinion.  Different speakers affect people in different ways, but I think stage presence goes a long way to helping a public speaker, particularly when people make judgments on sound bites.  Unfortunate, but true. 

What a presidential candidate has to do is move the masses with his voice and presence.  Paul doesn't do that.  And if you really step back and look at why he has made no significant movement in the polls, I think that has to be one of the primary reasons.  It isn't because he is dishonest, lacks a great family, education, and moral background.  It isn't because he is totally in left field (although some of his positions are a little untenable).  I think it's the package.  Not sure there is anything he can do about it.

That's one of the things that really helped Clinton.     

[Hugo Chavez]

I agree in part.  Honesty and sincerity, or at least the appearance of those qualities, does help a public speaker quite a bit.  But I'm not wrong about my opinion.  My opinion is what it is.  Some (like you) obviously have a different opinion.  Different speakers affect people in different ways, but I think stage presence goes a long way to helping a public speaker, particularly when people make judgments on sound bites.  Unfortunate, but true. 

What a presidential candidate has to do is move the masses with his voice and presence.  Paul doesn't do that.  And if you really step back and look at why he has made no significant movement in the polls, I think that has to be one of the primary reasons.  It isn't because he is dishonest, lacks a great family, education, and moral background.  It isn't because he is totally in left field (although some of his positions are a little untenable).  I think it's the package.  Not sure there is anything he can do about it.

That's one of the things that really helped Clinton.     

One Word... "Bush" defies everything you just said.  Zero stage presence.  The guy comes across as a bumbling buffoon, he's president... unless you're saying he wasn't elected

Typical appearance of W goes like this:

"uh... uhm... I just don't know that..."
"mmmmm.... yea...uh uhm ummmm uh uh ummm uh..."
"uh... uhm... I just don't know that..."
"mmmmm.... yea...uh uhm ummmm uh uh ummm uh..."
"uh... uhm... I just don't know that..."
"mmmmm.... yea...uh uhm ummmm uh uh ummm uh..."

[Dos Equis]

One Word... "Bush" defies everything you just said.  Zero stage presence.  The guy comes across as a bumbling buffoon, he's president... unless you're saying he wasn't elected

Typical appearance of W goes like this:

"uh... uhm... I just don't know that..."
"mmmmm.... yea...uh uhm ummmm uh uh ummm uh..."
"uh... uhm... I just don't know that..."
"mmmmm.... yea...uh uhm ummmm uh uh ummm uh..."
"uh... uhm... I just don't know that..."
"mmmmm.... yea...uh uhm ummmm uh uh ummm uh..."

Nah.  Bush was very good.  When I listen to him I hear a man of conviction.  Yes his command of the English language is terrible, but he comes across as a tough Cowboy.  People liked that demeanor.  It helped him a great deal.     

[BayGBM]

You have got to be kidding...  Paul doesn't look presidential?...BLAAAAA Well, unless you're into the liar dishonest look, he's the most presidential out of all of them... And McCain, I appreciate his question on torture, but looked alive? not really... Check that look after 5 years   The guy is older than dirt and I think it shows in him.

McCain lost his big chance eight years ago when the Bush machine smeared and steamrolled him...  now, he looks like a corpse. 

I can't believe people are still willing to work on his campaign.  His wife needs to show some mercy and yank him out of the race.  He has served his country well; it's time to ride off into the sunset.  There is no shame in not becoming president.

[Hugo Chavez]

Nah.  Bush was very good.  When I listen to him I hear a man of conviction.  Yes his command of the English language is terrible, but he comes across as a tough Cowboy.  People liked that demeanor.  It helped him a great deal.     

I rest my case about your opinion

[Dos Equis]

I rest my case about your opinion

lol.  You disagree with my opinion?  I'm shocked.   

[Hugo Chavez]

lol.  You disagree with my opinion?  I'm shocked.   

In this case, most people disagree with your opinion... It's just funny you bought into his play cowboy farce.

Having lived in Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico and Arizona, I've seen a few cowboys...  He may fool someone from Hawaii... Bush bought his ranch in 1999 to go with this new persona.  He's not even from Texas not that being Texan makes you a cowboy.  His wannabe cowboy photo ops are absolutely laughable to everyone but the most gullable or those who just hate dems so bad they'll gladly accept it.

He's a regular Paul Bunyan too didn't ya know

[Eyeball Chambers]

In this case, most people disagree with your opinion... It's just funny you bought into his play cowboy farce.

Having lived in Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico and Arizona, I've seen a few cowboys...  He may fool someone from Hawaii... Bush bought his ranch in 1999 to go with this new persona.  He's not even from Texas not that being Texan makes you a cowboy.  His wannabe cowboy photo ops are absolutely laughable to everyone but the most gullable or those who just hate dems so bad they'll gladly accept it.

He's a regular Paul Bunyan too didn't ya know

Berserker your posts are always 100% dead on!

[Eldon]

He's not even from Texas not that being Texan makes you a cowboy.

wrong,

he may not have been born in Texas but his family moved their when he was just a baby.

He grew up in Midland & Houston Texas,  went to Elementary school , Junior high and High school in Midland & Houston Texas



not defending the guy, as I think it is a sad what he has done, in not defending our border, and his out of control spending.
and then trying to push that Amnesty Bill through.

[Hugo Chavez]

wrong,

he may not have been born in Texas but his family moved their when he was just a baby.

He grew up in Midland & Houston Texas,  went to Elementary school , Junior high and High school in Midland & Houston Texas



not defending the guy, as I think it is a sad what he has done, in not defending our border, and his out of control spending.
and then trying to push that Amnesty Bill through.

but not exactly wrong and my main point is still true.  Nothing about him is Cowboy/Texas Cowboy in reality.  Same with Cheney, he isn't form Wyoming.

[24KT]

Oh Puleaze Eldon! The guy is all hat ...no cattle! He's even afraid of horses!

[Dos Equis]

In this case, most people disagree with your opinion... It's just funny you bought into his play cowboy farce.

Having lived in Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico and Arizona, I've seen a few cowboys...  He may fool someone from Hawaii... Bush bought his ranch in 1999 to go with this new persona.  He's not even from Texas not that being Texan makes you a cowboy.  His wannabe cowboy photo ops are absolutely laughable to everyone but the most gullable or those who just hate dems so bad they'll gladly accept it.

He's a regular Paul Bunyan too didn't ya know

Good picture.    

I don't stick my finger in the wind to form my opinions, so it doesn't really matter to me that a majority of people might not believe Bush has no stage presence.  In fact, I don't mind being a minority of one.  But I will point out that more than 50 million people voted for Bush in 2000 and more than 60 million voted for him 2004.    

[Hugo Chavez]

Good picture.    

I don't stick my finger in the wind to form my opinions, so it doesn't really matter to me that a majority of people might not believe Bush has no stage presence.  In fact, I don't mind being a minority of one.  But I will point out that more than 50 million people voted for Bush in 2000 and more than 60 million voted for him 2004.    

Again, you just backed up my points on all accounts perfectly, thanks

[Dos Equis]

Again, you just backed up my points on all accounts perfectly, thanks

How so?

[JBGRAY]

I'm sure that while some of you already know this, Bush Jr. was not always a poor speaker.  This is a recent event.  Dementia, or on purpose?  Is Bush smarter than he appears to be?  Or is perhaps even more stupid than what we all know.

 

[Hugo Chavez]

How so?

read the thread, read where we started, it should be obvious

[Dos Equis]

read the thread, read where we started, it should be obvious

Thanks for clearing that up.   

[Hugo Chavez]

Thanks for clearing that up.   

Oh brother...    I'll spell it out for you... I used Bush as an example of a man without stage presence that was elected.  You admit your opinion of his great stage presence is minority.  You make my case...

[Tre]

But I will point out that more than 50 million people voted for Bush in 2000 and more than 60 million voted for him 2004.    

We are not an intelligent nation.

The current housing crisis is irrefutable proof of my statement...as are your stats.

[Dos Equis]

Oh brother...    I'll spell it out for you... I used Bush as an example of a man without stage presence that was elected.  You admit your opinion of his great stage presence is minority.  You make my case...

That's why I asked for a clarification.  I made a general statement about being a minority of one.  I wasn't suggesting I'm the only person in America who believes Bush has good stage presence.  Too many people voted for him to reach that conclusion.  That's why I pointed out the millions who voted for him.     

[Cap]

Huckabee-execpt for the explanation on the IRS, I like his stances on issues.  He doesn't take himself too seriously which sits well with me.

Giuliani-I see him as the likely candidate.  I like his demeanor albeit arrogant at times but I'm not big on his abortion stance or at least former one.  I can set it aside with all other things considered because frankly I think outside of the Christian sect it isn't a major issue in politics right now.  It seems like an issue that should tackled in another 5 years.

Romney-There is something I don't trust about him.  He looks conniving and untrustworthy (good job field I guess).  He looked decent on paper but seems too robotic.

McCain-He's lost me.  I supported him but I also support information extraction and giving illegals the boot and he does not.  I agree that if a non-felon serves this country then they should get citizenship.  Seems fair enough to me but that's where my support ends.  Looking like a crippled geriatric patient does not help his cause though.

Paul-I don't give him any thought.  People my age love his revolutionary messages but he is no realist.