Why Heisman Voters Have Zero Credibility

[Dos Equis]

I have no knowledge about Purdue so I can't address that but seeing enough of the Pac-10 I know that their defense progressed slightly last year but it is night and day compared to this year.  I'm not bashing Hawaii I just have opinions about certain teams, especially Oregon.  They beat teams but I felt that they were a Dixon-team and teams had to eliminate him from the equation to do anything and that their wins were more a part of bad defenses than their greatness.

Understood.  I was focusing on body's point about the level of competition and how, as far as UH is concerned, our offense and Colt performed the same regardless of competition. 

And back to my Heisman rant, Texas Tech WR Michael Crabtree had 125 receptions for 1861 yards and 21 TDs.  In addition to not going to the right school, he is probably a "system" WR, so we should discount his incredible season.   

[Cap]

The competition argument will always come up with BSU and UH and is justified to an extent.  In terms of teams who seems to blow some out of the water, I really wonder how guys like Brennan and Dixon will do in the NFL, assuming they make it.  Their systems do set them up for success but I'm not sure the NFL will be an easy transition.

As far as voting, Brennan and Johnson certainly had cases for last year and definitely got shafted.

[Dos Equis]

The competition argument will always come up with BSU and UH and is justified to an extent.  In terms of teams who seems to blow some out of the water, I really wonder how guys like Brennan and Dixon will do in the NFL, assuming they make it.  Their systems do set them up for success but I'm not sure the NFL will be an easy transition.

As far as voting, Brennan and Johnson certainly had cases for last year and definitely got shafted.

The system argument is bunk.  Every QB is in a system.  He has to read defenses and make all of the throws just like any other QB. 

Regarding the pros, players like Roethlisberger, Pennington, Leftwich, Romo, etc. have shown a good player is a good player, regardless of where they went to school. 

Now how many highly touted QBs out of Miami, Florida, Florida State et al. have bombed in the NFL?  (Rhetorical question.)

[body88]

My question is this. If Mcfadden can drop 300 yards on the best team in the nation (LSU) with no passing game , what would he do in the wac?

I am not saying Colt is not a great player , he is.

[CARTEL]

The system argument is bunk.  Every QB is in a system.  He has to read defenses and make all of the throws just like any other QB. 

Regarding the pros, players like Roethlisberger, Pennington, Leftwich, Romo, etc. have shown a good player is a good player, regardless of where they went to school. 

Now how many highly touted QBs out of Miami, Florida, Florida State et al. have bombed in the NFL?  (Rhetorical question.)

The system argument is not bunk. HI throws the ball 50 times a game no matter what. Tim Tebow would have the same numbers against better teams if FL let him loose.

[Dos Equis]

My question is this. If Mcfadden can drop 300 yards on the best team in the nation (LSU) with no passing game , what would he do in the wac?

I am not saying Colt is not a great player , he is.

He had 206 against LSU and 321 against South Carolina. 

He also had:

151 against Troy
122 against Chattanooga
88 against Mississippi State
61 against Florida International
43 against Auburn

I'm not sure what he would have done in the WAC.  Perhaps he would have run for 200 like he did against LSU or 61 like he did against Florida International. 

[Dos Equis]

The system argument is not bunk. HI throws the ball 50 times a game no matter what. Tim Tebow would have the same numbers against better teams if FL let him loose.

So is the "system" argument that Colt has been successful because he has thrown the ball "50 times a game" and therefore had more opportunities?  If that's your argument, then consider this:

- He is only 16th in the country in pass attempts. 
- He is 3rd in completion percentage at 71.4 percent.
- He is 3rd in TDs with 38 (also has 8 rushing TDs).
- He is 4th in yards at 4174.
- He is 3d in efficiency rating at 166.31.
- He is 1st all-time with 131 career passing TDs and 15 rushing TDs (146 total) in only three years, despite not having played in every game or completed every game.   

[body88]

Beach , do you think anyone in the wac could compete with LSU or OSU?

[Dos Equis]

Beach , do you think anyone in the wac could compete with LSU or OSU?

On neutral field, Boise, Hawaii, and Fresno.  But why are we comparing the supposed two best teams in the country to the WAC?  Why not simply look at the results of WAC teams playing against "BCS" schools:

- Fresno beat Kansas State this year 45-29.
- Fresno lost at Texas A & M 47-45 in three OTs.
- Boise beat Oklahoma 43-42.
- Miami barely beat Nevada in last year's bowl game 21-20.
- UH beat ASU 42-24 last year and in that same year beat Purdue and almost beat Oregon State and Alabama (on the road).

Why not ask whether anyone in the WAC can compete against Baylor, Texas Tech, South Carolina, Northwestern, Iowa State, Stanford, etc.?   

Not sure what point you're trying to make, but I'm focused on good players.  Pretty clear that McFadden is a great player and I don't discount his stats simply because he laid eggs or was contained by inferior teams.  Nor do I trump them up because he plays in a "BCS" conference.  I don't discount Kevin Smith's stat's either.  He was head and shoulders better than McFadden (and Mike Hart) year.   

[Geo]

Troy Smith owns all you haters' minds!

yeah with any luck in a couple years they'll let him take snaps......





















and hold for the placekicker !

[Cap]

They even said last night that Hawaii's passing game is based solely on completions and many of his passes are dump off passes so his numbers make sense.  I think that Boise and Hawaii got where they did because of their schedule and Colt is good because of the program set up.  Hate me or not, that's what I think.  I make the same argument for a guy like Dixon.  Put him somewhere else and the guy would be less successful than other running QBs like Vince Young.

[Dos Equis]

They even said last night that Hawaii's passing game is based solely on completions and many of his passes are dump off passes so his numbers make sense.  I think that Boise and Hawaii got where they did because of their schedule and Colt is good because of the program set up.  Hate me or not, that's what I think.  I make the same argument for a guy like Dixon.  Put him somewhere else and the guy would be less successful than other running QBs like Vince Young.

lol . . . Okay cap. . . . Now tell me what offense in America that throws the ball isn't based on completions?  I'm not sure who said that, but they obviously don't watch UH play. 

Colt averages 8.8 in yards per attempt, which puts him 5th in the country, so it is absolutely not true that many of his passes are "dump off passes."  He is always throwing the ball down the field.  Did you watch the game last night?  He was throwing strikes all over the field.  Completed every throw you can make, including 20 in a row, and a 40 yard perfect strike to Jason Rivers for a TD. 

[Geo]

They even said last night that Hawaii's passing game is based solely on completions and many of his passes are dump off passes so his numbers make sense.

as opposed to what ?

a passing game that's based on incompletion's and running the ball ?

the hiesman isn't based on rewarding the best pro prospect,it's based on the best player working within whatever program he's in and playing against whatever schedule the player has to deal with...

Brennan passed all those tests and then some !

[Cap]

lol . . . Okay cap. . . . Now tell me what offense in America that throws the ball isn't based on completions?  I'm not sure who said that, but they obviously don't watch UH play. 

Colt averages 8.8 in yards per attempt, which puts him 5th in the country, so it is absolutely not true that many of his passes are "dump off passes."  He is always throwing the ball down the field.  Did you watch the game last night?  He was throwing strikes all over the field.  Completed every throw you can make, including 20 in a row, and a 40 yard perfect strike to Jason Rivers for a TD. 

The sideline announcer said June Jones looks for completions, which makes sense, but not every strike he makes is deep.  Don't take offense to the comments because they're not personal, they're logical based on how most people view Hawaii.  You have teams, albeit with losses, that lost to tough teams and are left sitting while Hawaii and Illinois are in big bowl games. 

Would you agree about Dixon?  I think certain guys only do well in their system because when you see them transition to the pros, they don't do anything special.

Geo: I realize that but this is where the "system" argument comes up because without a significant running game he has to pass and make those completions and they are not all long bombs.

[Geo]

Geo: I realize that but this is where the "system" argument comes up because without a significant running game he has to pass and make those completions and they are not all long bombs.

I think considering everyone knows Hawaii is gonna throw the ball 50 or 60 times a game makes his passing numbers all that more impressive...

the only thing I really heard the announcer say about june jones and  the passing attack is that the recievers and brennan are on the same page when they're looking at the DB's and coverage, and the patterns that brennans recievers run are'nt determined until about a second or two before the snap...


it's an advanced form of sandlot football that has these kids playing in a BCS.......


it dos'nt get much better than that !

[body88]

No doubt Brennen is a fantastic player. My only question is how much weight should the level of opponents Hawaii plays count when talking about stats?

I think colt is a exception to the question to an extent. He has all the tools necessary to make him a good pro one day. Touch, pocket awareness. Accuracy etc etc.

Does the level of d he faces add to that? I dont think you can flat out ignore the wac does not provide the defensive talent seen by top qb's in superior conferences.

Honestly I don't know for sure.

[Dos Equis]

The sideline announcer said June Jones looks for completions, which makes sense, but not every strike he makes is deep.  Don't take offense to the comments because they're not personal, they're logical based on how most people view Hawaii.  You have teams, albeit with losses, that lost to tough teams and are left sitting while Hawaii and Illinois are in big bowl games. 

Would you agree about Dixon?  I think certain guys only do well in their system because when you see them transition to the pros, they don't do anything special.

Geo: I realize that but this is where the "system" argument comes up because without a significant running game he has to pass and make those completions and they are not all long bombs.

Dude . . . I am not offended and I'm sorry if I appeared to sound offended.  Just talking sports mang.    

I don't think inaccurate analyses is logical.  Any commentator saying Brennan is successful because of "dump offs" is just flat wrong. 

I don't believe in "system" players.  Is Brady a "system" QB because NE plays the spread and throws the ball about 80 percent of the time?  No. 

I do believe that there are legitimate issues regarding players who have to do things differently in the pros that they did not do in college.  For example, Brennan has taken 99 percent of his snaps out of the shotgun for the past three years, so it is legitimate to question whether or not he will have trouble taking snaps from under center.  Same with a defender that hasn't played with his hand on the ground, a running back that hasn't caught passes out of the backfield, a WR who hasn't blocked much, etc. 

I think that applies to Dixon as well.  I've watched him play and he is very good.  Do I think he has a very good arm and excellent mobility because of his "system"?  Nope. 

And regarding the running game, coming into this season, UH has averaged at least 100 yards rushing a game.  I think we're down to about 80 this year, but we had 96 last night. 

[Dos Equis]

I think considering everyone knows Hawaii is gonna throw the ball 50 or 60 times a game makes his passing numbers all that more impressive...

the only thing I really heard the announcer say about june jones and  the passing attack is that the recievers and brennan are on the same page when they're looking at the DB's and coverage, and the patterns that brennans recievers run are'nt determined until about a second or two before the snap...


it's an advanced form of sandlot football that has these kids playing in a BCS.......


it dos'nt get much better than that !

Completely agree.  Everyone knows we will be throwing the ball and still can't stop it.

[Dos Equis]

No doubt Brennen is a fantastic player. My only question is how much weight should the level of opponents Hawaii plays count when talking about stats?

I think colt is a exception to the question to an extent. He has all the tools necessary to make him a good pro one day. Touch, pocket awareness. Accuracy etc etc.

Does the level of d he faces add to that? I dont think you can flat out ignore the wac does not provide the defensive talent seen by top qb's in superior conferences.

Honestly I don't know for sure.

I think it's irrelvant.  He has done the same thing to "BCS" schools that he has done to Utah State.  That's the answer. 

Gotta run and watch my Lakers get drubbed . . .

[Cap]

Dude . . . I am not offended and I'm sorry if I appeared to sound offended.  Just talking sports mang.    

I don't think inaccurate analyses is logical.  Any commentator saying Brennan is successful because of "dump offs" is just flat wrong. 

I don't believe in "system" players.  Is Brady a "system" QB because NE plays the spread and throws the ball about 80 percent of the time?  No. 

I do believe that there are legitimate issues regarding players who have to do things differently in the pros that they did not do in college.  For example, Brennan has taken 99 percent of his snaps out of the shotgun for the past three years, so it is legitimate to question whether or not he will have trouble taking snaps from under center.  Same with a defender that hasn't played with his hand on the ground, a running back that hasn't caught passes out of the backfield, a WR who hasn't blocked much, etc. 

I think that applies to Dixon as well.  I've watched him play and he is very good.  Do I think he has a very good arm and excellent mobility because of his "system"?  Nope. 

And regarding the running game, coming into this season, UH has averaged at least 100 yards rushing a game.  I think we're down to about 80 this year, but we had 96 last night. 

You make good points.  I think the same explain Reggie Bush having moderate success this year in the NFL because he never pounded the rock in the way Lendale White did.  I think Colt is good but I will wait and see before I can make definite conclusions about his future success.  I'm leaning more towards the Chang route but I could be wrong. 

I said the same thing about UH and Oregon.  It's easy to know what they can do but nobody stops them and that's why I get pissed watching most of their games.  I think in another program Dixon wouldn't be as good.  His physical skills are good anywhere but in another program he would likely be different player. 

Just to mess with you...Jones believes in system players.  See what this crazy football year does to us.   

Don't worry BB, I'm not going to turn into 240 on you....or am I??

[Dos Equis]

You make good points.  I think the same explain Reggie Bush having moderate success this year in the NFL because he never pounded the rock in the way Lendale White did.  I think Colt is good but I will wait and see before I can make definite conclusions about his future success.  I'm leaning more towards the Chang route but I could be wrong. 

I said the same thing about UH and Oregon.  It's easy to know what they can do but nobody stops them and that's why I get pissed watching most of their games.  I think in another program Dixon wouldn't be as good.  His physical skills are good anywhere but in another program he would likely be different player. 

Just to mess with you...Jones believes in system players.  See what this crazy football year does to us.   

Don't worry BB, I'm not going to turn into 240 on you....or am I??

lol.  No you're not 240.  Man I can only handle one man crush on this board.     

Colt and Timmy are very different, but this horse is about dead.  I didn't intend for this to be some Colt Brennan thread.  It was created to discuss my decades-long disdain for the Heisman.  That's why I mentioned the Smith kid first from Central Florida.  It is a crime to leave him out of the discussion. 

[Cap]

lol.  No you're not 240.  Man I can only handle one man crush on this board.     

Colt and Timmy are very different, but this horse is about dead.  I didn't intend for this to be some Colt Brennan thread.  It was created to discuss my decades-long disdain for the Heisman.  That's why I mentioned the Smith kid first from Central Florida.  It is a crime to leave him out of the discussion. 

Well, if I make 8 threads today about you then you know I've lost it and need to log off.

I think you are right about last year's Heisman.  If you look at the guy that won and compare him to a Brennan and Johnson, the voting was shit. 

[Dos Equis]

Well, if I make 8 threads today about you then you know I've lost it and need to log off.

I think you are right about last year's Heisman.  If you look at the guy that won and compare him to a Brennan and Johnson, the voting was shit. 

Yep.  As Tre said, Troy Smith wasn't even the best player on his team. 

But back to my rant:

I recall last year at the START of the season Beano Cook saying that if Brady Quinn beat USC late in the season he would vote to give the Heisman to him over Troy Smith. 

I read that 10 to 15 percent of the Heisman ballots were mailed in BEFORE this weekend's games.  That means they voted before seeing Kevin Smith have 39 carries for 284 yards and 4 TDs to help clinch a conference championship.

The whole process stinks. 

BTW, June Jones called Tebow a "system QB" yesterday.   

[SinCitysmallGUY]

Beach I am with you no doubt. Same thing wtih BSU beating Oklahoma last year. THE BCS IS PURE BULLSHIT! We kept up with Oklahoma and beat them. The little guy. Colt has put up great numbers and I wouldn't be suprised to see his WR squad all go by the middle second round. There is no way in fuck a team should have two losses and be eligable for a top 10 spot when you have a undefeated team in the running where they are putting up 600+ yd games. The reason teams like HI and BSU get such a bad rap is because your lil BCS and pac-10 teams are to big of pussies to play us. What would USC or Ohio gain from coming to Boise or Hawaii. If they beat them the nation will just say wow you beat a WAC team. Yet if you lose it will just show that we can compete and make that big top team look like shit. FUCK THE BCS FUCK THE PAC-10, FUCK THE SEC, FUCK THE NCAA. I'm sick of this shit.



Okay I melted a little but these schools need to check if they got anything in their fucking pants other then a big wet dripping snatch. It must be nice to play for the national championship when two WAC teams have been undefeated the last 2 years. 


DONE MELTING!

[Dos Equis]

Beach I am with you no doubt. Same thing wtih BSU beating Oklahoma last year. THE BCS IS PURE BULLSHIT! We kept up with Oklahoma and beat them. The little guy. Colt has put up great numbers and I wouldn't be suprised to see his WR squad all go by the middle second round. There is no way in fuck a team should have two losses and be eligable for a top 10 spot when you have a undefeated team in the running where they are putting up 600+ yd games. The reason teams like HI and BSU get such a bad rap is because your lil BCS and pac-10 teams are to big of pussies to play us. What would USC or Ohio gain from coming to Boise or Hawaii. If they beat them the nation will just say wow you beat a WAC team. Yet if you lose it will just show that we can compete and make that big top team look like shit. FUCK THE BCS FUCK THE PAC-10, FUCK THE SEC, FUCK THE NCAA. I'm sick of this shit.



Okay I melted a little but these schools need to check if they got anything in their fucking pants other then a big wet dripping snatch. It must be nice to play for the national championship when two WAC teams have been undefeated the last 2 years. 


DONE MELTING!

lol.  Tell me how you really feel mang.     You almost took the words right out of my mouth.   

Hey we had 11 players named first team All WAC today.  Should have been 12 (Jason Rivers was second team, should have been first).  http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/Dec/03/br/br2548309176.html