Author Topic: Christianity:What's the point in praying for worldy matters? Divine Intervention  (Read 3564 times)

Hedgehog

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I see a lot of Christians praying for Divine intervention, and praying for worldly matters, such as that a relative will be saved by God from a disease eg.

If God were prepared to let his most beloved one, his Son, Jesus - the Messiah, die on the Cross, why then would God interfer in lesser matters?

I believe that it is a grave misinterpretation of Christianity to pray for changes in our worldy life, that is something God has to decide on. I wouldn't call it blasphemy, but I would definitely call it a fundamental misunderstanding of the Christian message.

We can only pray to be better persons, to be better Christians, and learn from Jesus, and try to understand his message.

Not pray to have God intervene in our life.
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Deicide

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I see a lot of Christians praying for Divine intervention, and praying for worldly matters, such as that a relative will be saved by God from a disease eg.

If God were prepared to let his most beloved one, his Son, Jesus - the Messiah, die on the Cross, why then would God interfer in lesser matters?

I believe that it is a grave misinterpretation of Christianity to pray for changes in our worldy life, that is something God has to decide on. I wouldn't call it blasphemy, but I would definitely call it a fundamental misunderstanding of the Christian message.

We can only pray to be better persons, to be better Christians, and learn from Jesus, and try to understand his message.

Not pray to have God intervene in our life.

How about not praying at all; it is a waste of time and does nothing.
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MCWAY

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I see a lot of Christians praying for Divine intervention, and praying for worldly matters, such as that a relative will be saved by God from a disease eg.

If God were prepared to let his most beloved one, his Son, Jesus - the Messiah, die on the Cross, why then would God interfer in lesser matters?

Jesus instructed His followers and disciples to pray. In fact, Jesus mentioned that, when speaking to the people. If God cares for the grass, that is here today and gone tommorrow, or He notices when a single bird falls from the sky (hence, the inspiration for the song, "His Eye Is On The Sparrow"), He certainly cares for us and wants us to come to Him with our burdens, whether they are "lesser matters" or not.


I believe that it is a grave misinterpretation of Christianity to pray for changes in our worldy life, that is something God has to decide on. I wouldn't call it blasphemy, but I would definitely call it a fundamental misunderstanding of the Christian message.

We can only pray to be better persons, to be better Christians, and learn from Jesus, and try to understand his message.

Not pray to have God intervene in our life.

There's a verse in the book of James (I think it's 4:3), that starts with the phrase, "You have not, because you ask not.". Another verse goes to the tune of "Cast all your cares upon Him for He cares for you". The point is that we're supposed to go to God, with our joys and sorrows. That's one of the reasons church has "testimony" time. It's when Christians sell of their burdens and how the Lord answered their prayers.

As for Jesus' message, it was simple: He is the Way, the Truth, and The Life. Freedom from sin and eternal life are found through Him. That's why He came; that's why He died; that's why He rose.


Hedgehog

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Jesus instructed His followers and disciples to pray. In fact, Jesus mentioned that, when speaking to the people. If God cares for the grass, that is here today and gone tommorrow, or He notices when a single bird falls from the sky (hence, the inspiration for the song, "His Eye Is On The Sparrow"), He certainly cares for us and wants us to come to Him with our burdens, whether they are "lesser matters" or not.

There's a verse in the book of James (I think it's 4:3), that starts with the phrase, "You have not, because you ask not.". Another verse goes to the tune of "Cast all your cares upon Him for He cares for you". The point is that we're supposed to go to God, with our joys and sorrows. That's one of the reasons church has "testimony" time. It's when Christians sell of their burdens and how the Lord answered their prayers.

As for Jesus' message, it was simple: He is the Way, the Truth, and The Life. Freedom from sin and eternal life are found through Him. That's why He came; that's why He died; that's why He rose.



Agree on everything.

But you are supposed to go to God, not to seek a change in life, eg to ask God to cure a disease, but to get, as you mentioned, "care".

To get the love connection to God.

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Deicide

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Jesus instructed His followers and disciples to pray. In fact, Jesus mentioned that, when speaking to the people. If God cares for the grass, that is here today and gone tommorrow, or He notices when a single bird falls from the sky (hence, the inspiration for the song, "His Eye Is On The Sparrow"), He certainly cares for us and wants us to come to Him with our burdens, whether they are "lesser matters" or not.

There's a verse in the book of James (I think it's 4:3), that starts with the phrase, "You have not, because you ask not.". Another verse goes to the tune of "Cast all your cares upon Him for He cares for you". The point is that we're supposed to go to God, with our joys and sorrows. That's one of the reasons church has "testimony" time. It's when Christians sell of their burdens and how the Lord answered their prayers.

As for Jesus' message, it was simple: He is the Way, the Truth, and The Life. Freedom from sin and eternal life are found through Him. That's why He came; that's why He died; that's why He rose.



Prayer doesn't do shit. There have been double blind tests done where patients were prayed for to recover. No difference, in fact the ones who knew they were being prayed for got sick and died. Likewise just as many in New Orleans were 'miraculously' saved by praying, many others drowned in their attics spewing prayers as the water filled their lungs.

Seriously, people like you have something wrong with them psychologically.
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Deicide

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Agree on everything.

But you are supposed to go to God, not to seek a change in life, eg to ask God to cure a disease, but to get, as you mentioned, "care".

To get the love connection to God.



Hey Hedgehog, didn't you know that god has been dead for as about as long as man has invented him?
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loco

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Jesus instructed His followers and disciples to pray. In fact, Jesus mentioned that, when speaking to the people. If God cares for the grass, that is here today and gone tommorrow, or He notices when a single bird falls from the sky (hence, the inspiration for the song, "His Eye Is On The Sparrow"), He certainly cares for us and wants us to come to Him with our burdens, whether they are "lesser matters" or not.

There's a verse in the book of James (I think it's 4:3), that starts with the phrase, "You have not, because you ask not.". Another verse goes to the tune of "Cast all your cares upon Him for He cares for you". The point is that we're supposed to go to God, with our joys and sorrows. That's one of the reasons church has "testimony" time. It's when Christians sell of their burdens and how the Lord answered their prayers.

As for Jesus' message, it was simple: He is the Way, the Truth, and The Life. Freedom from sin and eternal life are found through Him. That's why He came; that's why He died; that's why He rose.



Great post! 

And I'd like to add that prayer also changes the person praying, for the better!

MCWAY

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Prayer doesn't do shit. There have been double blind tests done where patients were prayed for to recover. No difference, in fact the ones who knew they were being prayed for got sick and died. Likewise just as many in New Orleans were 'miraculously' saved by praying, many others drowned in their attics spewing prayers as the water filled their lungs.

Seriously, people like you have something wrong with them psychologically.

My, my, my! A little crank today, huh? Something wrong with me psychologically? This coming from a guy, blubbering, bleating, and wailing about someone he doesn't believe to exist.  ;D

As for the double-blind tests to which you reference......BIG DEAL!! How many times have the “experts” been royally rebutted and made to look silly, when someone defied their analysis and did something that they said couldn’t be done?

Remember when scientists said that no one could run a mile in under 4 minutes? I guess someone forgot to tell Roger Bannister about these “expert” findings. Time - 3 minutes, 59.4 seconds: Read it and weep!!

Or, how about it being impossible (according to the “experts”) to clean and jerk 500 lbs. Arnold Schwarzenegger has mentioned this several times, when speaking about motivation in his books and articles. Vasily Alexeev silenced the critics when he hit 501; less than a week later, Ken Patera broke the 500-lb. mark.

In other news, the new home run king is going to trial for lying about taking something that the "experts" claimed doesn't work (as far as enhancing athletic performance goes) in the first place. Strange, ain't it? Then, there are those geniuses who state that bodybuilders don't need any more protein than the average Joe does (i.e. the RDA) to build muscle and increase strength.


As far as prayer goes, thousands of years of Christian faith and millions of testimonies can pretty much squash that pitiful study you’re trumpeting, Trapezkerl. But, if you’re looking for a specific example, this looks like a neat one, appropriately because this is a bodybuilding site. It involves 2005 North American Champion, Marcus Haley.

In the June 2007 issue of FLEX, Haley tells a bit of his life story and how his mother’s drug addiction resulted in his being separated from his brothers and put in foster care. He wound up being adopted by a football coach, who got him on the gridiron and in the weight room. He got a full-ride scholarship at a small school and took up bodybuilding, when his football days ended.

Despite his eventual bodybuilding success, his past still haunted him. When his mother had an aneurysm, he finally had to face his history. When Haley found out what happened, he knew he had to forgive her, as holding past anger had hampered his personal and spiritual life.

According to Haley, his simple prayer was that his mother stay alive long enough for him to forgive her, face-to-face. The doctors later pronounced her clinically dead and told Haley to start making funeral arrangements. Sometime after that, they called Haley back and told him (to their utter shock) that his mother had recovered and was asking to see him. They, however, could NOT explain how she came back.

Why don't you tell Mr. Haley about this double-blind study, that his prayer was worthless. Or, tell that to his mama, for that matter. I'm sure brother Loco will pick up where I leave off and tell you of more people, whose prayers have been answered, contrary to this  oh-so-convincing double-blind study that says that prayer doesn't work.

While you're at it, you can perhaps get some couch time yourself and figure out why an alleged non-existent God has you (and Lord knows how many other atheists) all bent out of shape (Hint: Grab your ears and chant, "WOOOOO-SAAAAAAH!!!!!").

Necrosis

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How about not praying at all; it is a waste of time and does nothing.

 i wouldnt agree with that. their has been a few studies on the effects of prayer on health, with the majority showing positive results.

however, this is not because god gives some health benefits. its mainly due to the comfort in the pleasant thoughts, positive emotions which cause neurochemical cascades which have all kinds of biochemical effects. for instance CBT is known to cause changes in neurotransmitter levels(due to reverse engineering, obvioulsy theres no test) which alleviate depression and anxiety. the act of praying in my theory serves as some form of talk therapy in a way which elevates mood, immune function etc..

im all about increasing quality of life, but for prayer to work it seems you have to beleive someone is listening and that something will come of it. i realize you where just fuggin around, i just thought it was an interesting fact.

Necrosis

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Prayer doesn't do shit. There have been double blind tests done where patients were prayed for to recover. No difference, in fact the ones who knew they were being prayed for got sick and died. Likewise just as many in New Orleans were 'miraculously' saved by praying, many others drowned in their attics spewing prayers as the water filled their lungs.

Seriously, people like you have something wrong with them psychologically.

LOL i didnt see this post before i posted, there are studies providing evidence that church attendence and religious acts provide benefits. it has a very simple explanation. i dont think praying for someone will have any effect, but there are studies that show positive effects of intercessory prayer. i cant remember if they are flawed or not however.

Necrosis

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My, my, my! A little crank today, huh? Something wrong with me psychologically? This coming from a guy, blubbering, bleating, and wailing about someone he doesn't believe to exist.  ;D

As for the double-blind tests to which you reference......BIG DEAL!! How many times have the “experts” been royally rebutted and made to look silly, when someone defied their analysis and did something that they said couldn’t be done?

Remember when scientists said that no one could run a mile in under 4 minutes? I guess someone forgot to tell Roger Bannister about these “expert” findings. Time - 3 minutes, 59.4 seconds: Read it and weep!!

Or, how about it being impossible (according to the “experts”) to clean and jerk 500 lbs. Arnold Schwarzenegger has mentioned this several times, when speaking about motivation in his books and articles. Vasily Alexeev silenced the critics when he hit 501; less than a week later, Ken Patera broke the 500-lb. mark.

In other news, the new home run king is going to trial for lying about taking something that the "experts" claimed doesn't work (as far as enhancing athletic performance goes) in the first place. Strange, ain't it? Then, there are those geniuses who state that bodybuilders don't need any more protein than the average Joe does (i.e. the RDA) to build muscle and increase strength.


As far as prayer goes, thousands of years of Christian faith and millions of testimonies can pretty much squash that pitiful study you’re trumpeting, Trapezkerl. But, if you’re looking for a specific example, this looks like a neat one, appropriately because this is a bodybuilding site. It involves 2005 North American Champion, Marcus Haley.

In the June 2007 issue of FLEX, Haley tells a bit of his life story and how his mother’s drug addiction resulted in his being separated from his brothers and put in foster care. He wound up being adopted by a football coach, who got him on the gridiron and in the weight room. He got a full-ride scholarship at a small school and took up bodybuilding, when his football days ended.

Despite his eventual bodybuilding success, his past still haunted him. When his mother had an aneurysm, he finally had to face his history. When Haley found out what happened, he knew he had to forgive her, as holding past anger had hampered his personal and spiritual life.

According to Haley, his simple prayer was that his mother stay alive long enough for him to forgive her, face-to-face. The doctors later pronounced her clinically dead and told Haley to start making funeral arrangements. Sometime after that, they called Haley back and told him (to their utter shock) that his mother had recovered and was asking to see him. They, however, could NOT explain how she came back.

Why don't you tell Mr. Haley about this double-blind study, that his prayer was worthless. Or, tell that to his mama, for that matter. I'm sure brother Loco will pick up where I leave off and tell you of more people, whose prayers have been answered, contrary to this  oh-so-convincing double-blind study that says that prayer doesn't work.

While you're at it, you can perhaps get some couch time yourself and figure out why an alleged non-existent God has you (and Lord knows how many other atheists) all bent out of shape (Hint: Grab your ears and chant, "WOOOOO-SAAAAAAH!!!!!").

for one your examples are of opinions of people being proven wrong. you have a skewed view of science. if something shows positive results in a RCT we suspect it may help and look for more research, alot of science and medicine is geussing. but its not geussing in the dark, its educated and well substantiated hunches per se based on evidence(of which there are many levels of). your case study is not very good evidence and just because doctors CAN not explain something doesnt mean something supernatural caused it. this is my problem with religious folk, superstitions etc... if we dont know something... GOD DID IT. thats a bonehead conclusion based on ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. you deny the varacity of double blinds, and logical explanations yet are comfortable accepting that marcus haley's mom came back to life and they DIDNT know. oh my god, they dont know what happened, god snuck in and magical changed everything. your conclusion seems much more ridiculous and is entirely based on nothing at all, its actually a more complex answer.

windsor88

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Prayer doesn't do shit. There have been double blind tests done where patients were prayed for to recover. No difference, in fact the ones who knew they were being prayed for got sick and died. Likewise just as many in New Orleans were 'miraculously' saved by praying, many others drowned in their attics spewing prayers as the water filled their lungs.

Seriously, people like you have something wrong with them psychologically.

Trapezkerl laying down the TRUTH.  LOL.

I love how you get all these holy rollers jumpy.  Good Job.  Keep kicking that crutch they use.

Deicide

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My, my, my! A little crank today, huh? Something wrong with me psychologically? This coming from a guy, blubbering, bleating, and wailing about someone he doesn't believe to exist.  ;D

As for the double-blind tests to which you reference......BIG DEAL!! How many times have the “experts” been royally rebutted and made to look silly, when someone defied their analysis and did something that they said couldn’t be done?

Remember when scientists said that no one could run a mile in under 4 minutes? I guess someone forgot to tell Roger Bannister about these “expert” findings. Time - 3 minutes, 59.4 seconds: Read it and weep!!

Or, how about it being impossible (according to the “experts”) to clean and jerk 500 lbs. Arnold Schwarzenegger has mentioned this several times, when speaking about motivation in his books and articles. Vasily Alexeev silenced the critics when he hit 501; less than a week later, Ken Patera broke the 500-lb. mark.

In other news, the new home run king is going to trial for lying about taking something that the "experts" claimed doesn't work (as far as enhancing athletic performance goes) in the first place. Strange, ain't it? Then, there are those geniuses who state that bodybuilders don't need any more protein than the average Joe does (i.e. the RDA) to build muscle and increase strength.


As far as prayer goes, thousands of years of Christian faith and millions of testimonies can pretty much squash that pitiful study you’re trumpeting, Trapezkerl. But, if you’re looking for a specific example, this looks like a neat one, appropriately because this is a bodybuilding site. It involves 2005 North American Champion, Marcus Haley.

In the June 2007 issue of FLEX, Haley tells a bit of his life story and how his mother’s drug addiction resulted in his being separated from his brothers and put in foster care. He wound up being adopted by a football coach, who got him on the gridiron and in the weight room. He got a full-ride scholarship at a small school and took up bodybuilding, when his football days ended.

Despite his eventual bodybuilding success, his past still haunted him. When his mother had an aneurysm, he finally had to face his history. When Haley found out what happened, he knew he had to forgive her, as holding past anger had hampered his personal and spiritual life.

According to Haley, his simple prayer was that his mother stay alive long enough for him to forgive her, face-to-face. The doctors later pronounced her clinically dead and told Haley to start making funeral arrangements. Sometime after that, they called Haley back and told him (to their utter shock) that his mother had recovered and was asking to see him. They, however, could NOT explain how she came back.

Why don't you tell Mr. Haley about this double-blind study, that his prayer was worthless. Or, tell that to his mama, for that matter. I'm sure brother Loco will pick up where I leave off and tell you of more people, whose prayers have been answered, contrary to this  oh-so-convincing double-blind study that says that prayer doesn't work.

While you're at it, you can perhaps get some couch time yourself and figure out why an alleged non-existent God has you (and Lord knows how many other atheists) all bent out of shape (Hint: Grab your ears and chant, "WOOOOO-SAAAAAAH!!!!!").

Prayer, like all things in religion is wishful thinking:


As for psychosis-Who is the psychologically incompetent one here? A person who looks at reality in the face, faces his material and finite existence, forthcoming death and oblivion, all the while realising how insignifcant, small and unimportant he is in an indifferent universe; and despite this he strives for knowledge and to live an ethical and interesting life...or someone who believes there is an invisible sky daddy who observes everything he does, from the passage of shit through the anus to the the breakfast cereal he eats to various other 'sins' and who believes he will be rewarded as an immaterial ghost eternally on another plane of existence for obedience to a curmudgeon of a deity who is mentioned in a disparately cobbled together text a few millenia ago, who needs to believe this for terror of the death and the unknown? Which one is it?
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MCWAY

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Prayer, like all things in religion is wishful thinking:

Again, I invite you to tell that to one Marcus Haley or his mother. Please inform her that she's supposed to be dead, because her son's prayer for her isn't supposed to work, according to these glorious double-blind studies you reference  ::) .

Or, would you like another refresher of some of the things that have come to pass, despite the "experts" claiming that such was impossible.


As for psychosis-Who is the psychologically incompetent one here? A person who looks at reality in the face, faces his material and finite existence, forthcoming death and oblivion, all the while realising how insignifcant, small and unimportant he is in an indifferent universe; and despite this he strives for knowledge and to live an ethical and interesting life...or someone who believes there is an invisible sky daddy who observes everything he does, from the passage of shit through the anus to the the breakfast cereal he eats to various other 'sins' and who believes he will be rewarded as an immaterial ghost eternally on another plane of existence for obedience to a curmudgeon of a deity who is mentioned in a disparately cobbled together text a few millenia ago, who needs to believe this for terror of the death and the unknown? Which one is it?

How about the guy who, despite claiming that he looks reality in the face, has to continually squeal, rant, and rave about something he claims doesn’t exist? WAIT!! That would be you! You face reality yet wail about what's you call unreal. Again, grab both ears and chant "WOOOO-SAAAAH!!!!"

If you get any more discombobulated, you'll end up sounding like Howard Dean at the 2004 primary. I can see it now: "We're going to show that God doesn't exist! And, then we're going to show that Prayer DOESN'T WORK! And then, we're going to show that JESUS WAS A FRAUD! And, then we're going to show that everyone came from an unexplicable pile of 5-billion year old goo and is inherently worthless........YAAAAAA AAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!"


MCWAY

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for one your examples are of opinions of people being proven wrong. you have a skewed view of science. if something shows positive results in a RCT we suspect it may help and look for more research, alot of science and medicine is geussing. but its not geussing in the dark, its educated and well substantiated hunches per se based on evidence(of which there are many levels of). your case study is not very good evidence and just because doctors CAN not explain something doesnt mean something supernatural caused it. this is my problem with religious folk, superstitions etc... if we dont know something... GOD DID IT. thats a bonehead conclusion based on ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. you deny the varacity of double blinds, and logical explanations yet are comfortable accepting that marcus haley's mom came back to life and they DIDNT know. oh my god, they dont know what happened, god snuck in and magical changed everything. your conclusion seems much more ridiculous and is entirely based on nothing at all, its actually a more complex answer.

I deny the “veracity” of certain double-blind studies for one simple reason: Something in REAL LIFE happened, that the experts claimed could NOT happen, pure and simple.

Again, with my reference to Bannister, no matter how many double-blind (triple-blind, or quadruple-blind) studies the “experts” derived that claimed no one could run a mile under 4 minutes, Bannister’s time was 3:59.4, period.

I don’t care if you have more degrees than a thermometer, if you claim something can’t be done, yet someone comes along the way and DOES it, your theories, studies, findings, etc. have the value of the confederate dollar.

As for the story of Haley’s mother, the “evidence” proclaimed her clinically DEAD. The docs did nothing, except to inform Haley to get the arrangements ready for her funeral. Next thing you know, mama Haley is up, talking, breathing, watching TV, and asking for her son. As is always the case, where man’s knowledge ends, God’s knowledge barely begins.

And, by the way, where was the “sneaking”? Haley asked that this happen (or at least, that his mother remain alive long enough for him to forgive her).

My problem with certain non-religious folks is that they tend to go by the old adage, If the facts don’t match the theory, change the facts. BTW, if I'm "comfortable" accepting what happened to Haley's mother as an answer to Haley's prayer, my question to you is "Why are you so UNCOMFORTABLE with it?" What is it about the concept of a young man's prayer for his mother being answered, so that he can forgive her for past wrongs, that grates you pysche so much?

It appears that even the remote possibilty of her recovery, being due to supernatural intervention (when man's knowledge was completely exhausted), bugs the heck out of you. I truly wonder why. Perhaps, it's a stark reminder that, contrary to man's opinion, he is not the be-all-to-end-all in this world.

Marcus Haley believes the Lord answered his prayer, and based on the information about the account, that appears to be the case. But, if it makes you feel any better, you and Trapezkerl can find out where Haley is guest-posing next and show him these studies that unequivocally show that his prayer did nothing and his mama should be in the grave.


columbusdude82

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My problem with certain non-religious folks is that they tend to go by the old adage, If the facts don’t match the theory, change the facts.

The irony of you saying that, is lost on no one  ::) ::) ::)

Necrosis

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I deny the “veracity” of certain double-blind studies for one simple reason: Something in REAL LIFE happened, that the experts claimed could NOT happen, pure and simple.

Again, with my reference to Bannister, no matter how many double-blind (triple-blind, or quadruple-blind) studies the “experts” derived that claimed no one could run a mile under 4 minutes, Bannister’s time was 3:59.4, period.

I don’t care if you have more degrees than a thermometer, if you claim something can’t be done, yet someone comes along the way and DOES it, your theories, studies, findings, etc. have the value of the confederate dollar.

As for the story of Haley’s mother, the “evidence” proclaimed her clinically DEAD. The docs did nothing, except to inform Haley to get the arrangements ready for her funeral. Next thing you know, mama Haley is up, talking, breathing, watching TV, and asking for her son. As is always the case, where man’s knowledge ends, God’s knowledge barely begins.

And, by the way, where was the “sneaking”? Haley asked that this happen (or at least, that his mother remain alive long enough for him to forgive her).

My problem with certain non-religious folks is that they tend to go by the old adage, If the facts don’t match the theory, change the facts. BTW, if I'm "comfortable" accepting what happened to Haley's mother as an answer to Haley's prayer, my question to you is "Why are you so UNCOMFORTABLE with it?" What is it about the concept of a young man's prayer for his mother being answered, so that he can forgive her for past wrongs, that grates you pysche so much?

It appears that even the remote possibilty of her recovery, being due to supernatural intervention (when man's knowledge was completely exhausted), bugs the heck out of you. I truly wonder why. Perhaps, it's a stark reminder that, contrary to man's opinion, he is not the be-all-to-end-all in this world.

Marcus Haley believes the Lord answered his prayer, and based on the information about the account, that appears to be the case. But, if it makes you feel any better, you and Trapezkerl can find out where Haley is guest-posing next and show him these studies that unequivocally show that his prayer did nothing and his mama should be in the grave.



who are these experts that claimed people cannot survive?

for one the definition of dead doesnt apply to her as she obviously was not dead, since you cannot come back from death. if her heart was removed i would somewhat agree, but we dont fully understand the body. why do you feel the need to insert supernatural explanations for the unknown, do you think this is a smart tactic? what will happen when they find evidence to the contrary, will you just move your god back to another gap?

MCWAY

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who are these experts that claimed people cannot survive?

for one the definition of dead doesnt apply to her as she obviously was not dead, since you cannot come back from death. if her heart was removed i would somewhat agree, but we dont fully understand the body. why do you feel the need to insert supernatural explanations for the unknown, do you think this is a smart tactic? what will happen when they find evidence to the contrary, will you just move your god back to another gap?

I see! The doctors pronounced her dead and thought she was dead. But, since she's alive and conscious, she really wasn't dead, even thought they thought she was dead and all indicators had her as dead. AHHHHH!!!!

And what evidence are they going to find to back your claim that she really wasn't dead, in the first place? What supposedly "naturally" happened to get this woman, clinically DEAD, back up and breathing, talking, watching TV, and requesting the presence of her son?

This is, of course, assuming that these doctors are going to go through all the trouble of trying to "explain" what happened, just to assure you that Haley's prayer request really wasn't answered.

Again, what is it about the aspect of Marcus Haley's prayer for his mother being answered that burns your biscuits so much?


Necrosis

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I see! The doctors pronounced her dead and thought she was dead. But, since she's alive and conscious, she really wasn't dead, even thought they thought she was dead and all indicators had her as dead. AHHHHH!!!!

And what evidence are they going to find to back your claim that she really wasn't dead, in the first place? What supposedly "naturally" happened to get this woman, clinically DEAD, back up and breathing, talking, watching TV, and requesting the presence of her son?

This is, of course, assuming that these doctors are going to go through all the trouble of trying to "explain" what happened, just to assure you that Haley's prayer request really wasn't answered.

Again, what is it about the aspect of Marcus Haley's prayer for his mother being answered that burns your biscuits so much?



because you think something supernatural happens when something goes right and god is responsible, but when children in africa are dying by the thousands and being tortured your god is no where to be found. like the video and many debaters have asked, why doesnt god heal amputees then? why does he choose to heal people in which there is no way to tell if he did it, and natural explanations can be made. why did god answer haleys prayer and not all the dying people of the world? since he can intervene it makes no sense to answer some prayers and allow others to suffer.

no one has died and come back to life, NEAR death experiences, the definition of clinical death is up for debate. you use uncertainty for ammo, and its disgusting. your god will save marcus haleys mom but not the millions in africa, little children? shame on your god.

Deicide

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I see! The doctors pronounced her dead and thought she was dead. But, since she's alive and conscious, she really wasn't dead, even thought they thought she was dead and all indicators had her as dead. AHHHHH!!!!

And what evidence are they going to find to back your claim that she really wasn't dead, in the first place? What supposedly "naturally" happened to get this woman, clinically DEAD, back up and breathing, talking, watching TV, and requesting the presence of her son?

This is, of course, assuming that these doctors are going to go through all the trouble of trying to "explain" what happened, just to assure you that Haley's prayer request really wasn't answered.

Again, what is it about the aspect of Marcus Haley's prayer for his mother being answered that burns your biscuits so much?



Your flaw is to think that, barring standard explanations, your Christian deity is the only possible one. It reminds me of the god of the gaps argument; science doesn't know yet, so the Christian god did it. Not a terribly persuasive argument to the astute mind.

As for getting upset about the non-existent; we do not do that. We get upset about the advocates of the non-existent, not the non-existent itself.
I hate the State.

windsor88

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As for getting upset about the non-existent; we do not do that. We get upset about the advocates of the non-existent, not the non-existent itself.

lol.  I just wrote the similar in my last post on a different religion thread here at approximately the same time.  maybe it was....nah....nevermind.

MCWAY

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Your flaw is to think that, barring standard explanations, your Christian deity is the only possible one. It reminds me of the god of the gaps argument; science doesn't know yet, so the Christian god did it. Not a terribly persuasive argument to the astute mind.

Your flaw is to continually think that I (or any other believer here) resort to such an argument. Whether "science" knows it or not makes no difference in the matter. And what would these "standard explanations" be (regarding the Haley account)? The doctors exhausted their means to revive Haley's mother. She was pronounced dead. They did nothing from that point onward, except to inform Haley to get the casket ready. Next thing you know, his mother is alive, conscious, watching the tube, and asking for her son.

Again, I invite you to point to Marcus Haley or his mother this beloved double-blind study that declares that his prayers were worthless (and therefore, his mama should be dead).


As for getting upset about the non-existent; we do not do that. We get upset about the advocates of the non-existent, not the non-existent itself.

Your myriad of threads, screeching about the non-existence of God betrays this statement of yours.......BIG TIME!!!

MCWAY

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because you think something supernatural happens when something goes right and god is responsible, but when children in africa are dying by the thousands and being tortured your god is no where to be found. like the video and many debaters have asked, why doesnt god heal amputees then? why does he choose to heal people in which there is no way to tell if he did it, and natural explanations can be made. why did god answer haleys prayer and not all the dying people of the world? since he can intervene it makes no sense to answer some prayers and allow others to suffer.

So, what is the so-called natural explanation for what happened to Haley's mother? No matter how (or whom) God chooses to heal, you will continue to scratch that skull of yours in a futile attempt to explain such away. As for why Haley's prayer was answered with his mother's recovery and others were answered differently, that I do not know.


no one has died and come back to life, NEAR death experiences, the definition of clinical death is up for debate. you use uncertainty for ammo, and its disgusting. your god will save marcus haleys mom but not the millions in africa, little children? shame on your god.

Were He to do that, would you give Him credit? Of course not!!! I'm sure you'd come up with some "science doesn't know how" bit. If clinical death is up for debate, then your statement of "no one has died and come back to life" is worthless. It goes back to your circular argument, which I mentioned earlier: The doctors pronounced her dead and thought she was dead. But, since she's alive and conscious, she really wasn't dead, even thought they thought she was dead and all indicators had her as dead.

That leads me back to my original question: Again, what is it about the aspect of Marcus Haley's prayer for his mother being answered that burns your biscuits so much? Is it the aspect of his prayer being answered as opposed to others? Does this get your goat for philosophical reasons?




OzmO

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If you believe in prayer it does make you wonder why some prayers go unanswered and some prayers don't. 

Miracles, or at least events that are beyond explanation happen everyday, whether they are God or not, i believe is not the issue.  The fact that they happened are the real issues.

My question is if the Haley's were muslim and prayed to Allah would we be saying the same thing?  Would we be praising Allah?  Are muslims saying it was really Allah and not the Christian God that brought her back?  Or would it be the other way around?   ;D

People being pronounced dead and coming back to life is not something new, especially these days.   Heck, Betty Eiddy, in her book wrote that she met Jesus in heaven when she died, and came back to life hours later.

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So, what is the so-called natural explanation for what happened to Haley's mother? No matter how (or whom) God chooses to heal, you will continue to scratch that skull of yours in a futile attempt to explain such away. As for why Haley's prayer was answered with his mother's recovery and others were answered differently, that I do not know.


Were He to do that, would you give Him credit? Of course not!!! I'm sure you'd come up with some "science doesn't know how" bit. If clinical death is up for debate, then your statement of "no one has died and come back to life" is worthless. It goes back to your circular argument, which I mentioned earlier: The doctors pronounced her dead and thought she was dead. But, since she's alive and conscious, she really wasn't dead, even thought they thought she was dead and all indicators had her as dead.

That leads me back to my original question: Again, what is it about the aspect of Marcus Haley's prayer for his mother being answered that burns your biscuits so much? Is it the aspect of his prayer being answered as opposed to others? Does this get your goat for philosophical reasons?





see your not even readin my posts. just because we dont know doesnt mean god did it, this is called god of the gaps. its also called argument from ignorance, where because we dont know,you make up and explanation. we dont know much about death, and id like to read the reports about her conditions when she died, sorry a half wit story doesnt mean anything.

when we cant explain something, we keep looking and eventually we find the answer. for instance, we didnt know how lightning occured, if this was hundreds of years ago you would be saying, you cant explain lightning, where is your natural explanation. then we figure it out and your god disappears. science is littered with dead gods.


no because these "prayers" occur in situations where its not obvious god helped, or what happened. ask god to cure and amputee, its an argument dawkins presented years ago. where ambiguity, and ignorance exists, there your god is, how convient.

if god can intervene and interfere with life it indicates that he made mistakes in his design, since he knew the future. use your brain please.