Author Topic: Report: one gunman suspected in Colorado shootings  (Read 7527 times)


sgt. d

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Re: Report: one gunman suspected in Colorado shootings
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2007, 09:03:47 PM »
keep rolling your eyes.  If some asshole ever walks into the room and decides to start popping ppl at dinner, I'll more than likely see him and prepare for an exit or to try to stop him.  You'll have your back to him enjoying your dinner.   It's your choice, and that's fine.  I prefer to up the odds every little % I can.

You sound like you are living in fear. I wouldn't want to live my life paranoid all the time. Where the hell do you live? Iraq?  ???

sgt. d

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Re: Report: one gunman suspected in Colorado shootings
« Reply #52 on: December 12, 2007, 09:05:01 PM »

Dos Equis

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Re: Report: one gunman suspected in Colorado shootings
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2007, 09:06:56 PM »
How so?  you don't believe the stats gathered by law enforcement?  You don't believe the census stats on poverty?  I can understand they could be off some, but to call them, "completely unreliable" is odd...  You're all over the election polls being accurate for Ron Paul, but you doubt the stats gathered on the ethnicity of violent criminals?  What do you base this on?

First of all, I don't think Ron Paul's poll numbers have any relationship whatsoever to race-based statistics.  Not even going to address that one.  Really not a good comparison at all.    

Regarding race-based stats, they are completely unreliable for several reasons:

1.  They don't take into account education and income, which are far greater predictors than race when it comes to crime.

2.  They don't account for mixed-race people, which make up a huge percentage of the population.  

3.  They don't indicate how race was determined when these crime statistics are compiled.  Does the perp indicate his or her race?  Does the arresting officer do a visual identification?  What about all the halfricans who people consider "black."  Just look at Obama.  How many people consider the man white?  

That's a start. . . .

Dos Equis

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Re: Report: one gunman suspected in Colorado shootings
« Reply #54 on: December 12, 2007, 09:09:34 PM »
BB,

Seriously -

Your use of polls and stats, then ability to downplay the legitimacy of any stat or poll you disagree with... well, it's astonishing to see you use that tool in a debate.

You can't tell us why the stats are incorrect - or how police dept and census bureau got it all wrong.  You just know they're wrong. 

It just makes you look like you don't understand the numbers - that's the only conclusion I can find.  In order to be so sure that Zogby and Census and everyone else are just so wrong, you need to give some sort of evidence.  Otherwise, you're a... CT.... a crazy conspiracy nut claiming that the police and govt are lying in all their numbers. 

My own opinion - and you admitted you left high school to work for the new family you had - is that you haven't had many math classes and just don't understand the numbers we're discussing here.

LOL.  Do you ever tell the truth?  Now . . . ask me if I really care what the heck you think?  Go ahead . . . I'm dying to answer.  :)

I know you really like me, but honestly, do try and avoid turning so many threads into Beach Bum subjects. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Report: one gunman suspected in Colorado shootings
« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2007, 09:11:39 PM »
I should say that I think anybody claiming some kind of high ground on violence in general is out of their freaking minds...  I can litterally go from race to race and find all sorts of atrocity.  We can toss these numbers around all day long and you will indeed find that cultural influences lead to violence through different means but what you will find as a constant among all races is violent tendencies.

Nobody has the high ground here.  It's human nature and we need to get past blaming others so we can get on to valid solutions.  That won't happen with everyone locked into some kind of delusional superiority. 

With the exception of "cultural influences," I agree with everything you said. 

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Report: one gunman suspected in Colorado shootings
« Reply #56 on: December 12, 2007, 09:17:21 PM »
You sound like you are living in fear. I wouldn't want to live my life paranoid all the time. Where the hell do you live? Iraq?  ???

BWHAHAHHAHahahhhhahhahah aha.... look who's talking :P

Can't say why, but anytime I go into a restaurant, bar, or club (which is rare), I'm always looking to see where the exits are. 

Another white male goes on a killing spree. The only way to be safe is not attend school, mall, work, or church. The only place left to go is the grocery store :-\

98% of school, mall, church, and job shootings are by white males. I am really scared of those kind of people.

He was dating a White girl and thought he was White.

Like Paul Mooney, I am AFRAID OF WHITE PEOPLE - y'all gon' kill every damn body!

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Report: one gunman suspected in Colorado shootings
« Reply #57 on: December 12, 2007, 09:21:12 PM »
Can't handle the truth "Berserker"
truth, Tre's truth that what happened in Colorado was a terrorist attack ::)  Really, fill me in on how that's truth sgt. d, what was the guy's motive?  Now go look up terrorism and come back to tell me how this is a terrorist attack ::)  Tre earned that eye roll...

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Report: one gunman suspected in Colorado shootings
« Reply #58 on: December 12, 2007, 09:24:40 PM »
With the exception of "cultural influences," I agree with everything you said. 
how so, clearly I'm right on that... why else do you think whites are far more likely to commit murder by poison than blacks?  You think it's a built in racial difference?  No, I think it's a cumulative influence from one's surroundings.  The input they're exposed to through life.  Would that same white person choose poison if they were completely raised in a different culture?  I doubt it.

Dos Equis

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Re: Report: one gunman suspected in Colorado shootings
« Reply #59 on: December 12, 2007, 09:39:34 PM »
how so, clearly I'm right on that... why else do you think whites are far more likely to commit murder by poison than blacks?  You think it's a built in racial difference?  No, I think it's a cumulative influence from one's surroundings.  The input they're exposed to through life.  Would that same white person choose poison if they were completely raised in a different culture?  I doubt it.

I don't know if whites are more likely to commit murder by poison than blacks.  How do you reach that conclusion? 

I'm not sure we're using the same definition of "culture."  If by culture you mean environment, then I agree.  If by culture you mean certain practices by a particular race or ethnic group, then I disagree.  Based on your description, it sounds like we're saying the same thing (i.e., using culture synonymously with environment). 

I think a person's environment essentially determines their place in life.   

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Report: one gunman suspected in Colorado shootings
« Reply #60 on: December 12, 2007, 09:55:20 PM »
I don't know if whites are more likely to commit murder by poison than blacks.  How do you reach that conclusion? 

I'm not sure we're using the same definition of "culture."  If by culture you mean environment, then I agree.  If by culture you mean certain practices by a particular race or ethnic group, then I disagree.  Based on your description, it sounds like we're saying the same thing (i.e., using culture synonymously with environment). 

I think a person's environment essentially determines their place in life.   

I got the stats from the Bureau of Justice Statistics.  www.ojp.usdoj.gov Whites who choose poison in homicides: 78.8% while blacks who go the poison route make up only 18.4% and yes, I'm using the term culture a little different.  I could have as well said environment but there is cultural influences important in the factor of the environment one is raised in so that's why I went there.  But I think we agree on that one, just needed to clarify.

These are stats that you cannot deny.  even if they are off some do to some factors you mention, the numbers are so extreme they can still be used to point toward real trends in crime and race.

Dos Equis

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Re: Report: one gunman suspected in Colorado shootings
« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2007, 10:15:19 PM »
I got the stats from the Bureau of Justice Statistics.  www.ojp.usdoj.gov Whites who choose poison in homicides: 78.8% while blacks who go the poison route make up only 18.4% and yes, I'm using the term culture a little different.  I could have as well said environment but there is cultural influences important in the factor of the environment one is raised in so that's why I went there.  But I think we agree on that one, just needed to clarify.

These are stats that you cannot deny.  even if they are off some do to some factors you mention, the numbers are so extreme they can still be used to point toward real trends in crime and race.

Yes we agree on culture/environment. 

I can indeed deny stats.  I don't think they really establish anything.  You cannot take those stats and use them to make reliable judgments about people you happen to see on the street.  You cannot use them to make policy.  Honestly, I'm not sure why the government keeps them.  I've asked the same question about the race component of the census.  What's the purpose? 

I think the blood quantum issue is huge.  Not sure if you've ever been here, but a good half the population is mixed race.  Same is true for blacks in Hawaii.  Just in my church, there are kids who are black/Palauan, black/Korean, and black/Fijian.  A military family just moved away that was from the Virgin Islands.  They are very dark skinned, but the mom has a Chinese grandfather.  Her dark skinned boys have Chinese eyes.  It's wild.  Are all those kids black? 

We also have in my church white/Japanese, white/Filipino, white/Hawaiian, etc.  Are those kids white?

I've seen the same trend on the mainland.   

I remember having a discussion with that Oliver (?) kid on here a long time ago.  Trying to determine what blood quantum determines a person's race.  He actually came up with some percentage.  I think it's an absurd exercise. 

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Report: one gunman suspected in Colorado shootings
« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2007, 10:40:43 PM »
well I think you cannot deny the stats entirely.  No way... Look we actually agree that people are a product of their environment.  That means we should also agree that you can observe different trends in those raised in different environments.

In the stats taken, the most accurate percentage is going to be with those labeled white since they are easiest to identify.  If you have any relative percentage of black blood, it's real unlikely that person will appear anything but black or part and very unlikely they'll be recored as white.

If you look at the stats, they show definite trend differences between those who are labeled white and those who are recorded as black.  Regardless, that says something.

All of this matters not.  I do not intend on saying blacks are more likely to commit violent acts.  One cannot look at moments in time to obtain an accurate depiction of a people and when you take into account all our histories, it becomes quite clear we're all built with the same tendencies to harm and this is my primary contention with Sgt d. and Tre who are on some kind of evil whiteman misson.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Report: one gunman suspected in Colorado shootings
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2007, 10:44:25 PM »
oh and white is of European ancestry.  You cannot tell me you would not be able to tell the difference between a lite coloured Hawaiian/Japanese and a German, Irish etc.

Dos Equis

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Re: Report: one gunman suspected in Colorado shootings
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2007, 10:53:38 PM »
well I think you cannot deny the stats entirely.  No way... Look we actually agree that people are a product of their environment.  That means we should also agree that you can observe different trends in those raised in different environments.

In the stats taken, the most accurate percentage is going to be with those labeled white since they are easiest to identify.  If you have any relative percentage of black blood, it's real unlikely that person will appear anything but black or part and very unlikely they'll be recored as white.

If you look at the stats, they show definite trend differences between those who are labeled white and those who are recorded as black.  Regardless, that says something.

All of this matters not.  I do not intend on saying blacks are more likely to commit violent acts.  One cannot look at moments in time to obtain an accurate depiction of a people and when you take into account all our histories, it becomes quite clear we're all built with the same tendencies to harm and this is my primary contention with Sgt d. and Tre who are on some kind of evil whiteman misson.

We agree on much of this, particularly your first and last paragraphs.

What you essentially said in your second paragraph is race is sometimes determined by appearance, which is true.  That just confirms my belief that race-based statistics are unreliable.   

Dos Equis

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Re: Report: one gunman suspected in Colorado shootings
« Reply #65 on: December 12, 2007, 10:57:54 PM »
oh and white is of European ancestry.  You cannot tell me you would not be able to tell the difference between a lite coloured Hawaiian/Japanese and a German, Irish etc.

Is it really?  I'm pretty sure that certain parts of the government considers Hispanics and Jews to be "white" when it comes to certain race-based categories. 

I can pick out a hapa a mile away, but is a German/Japanese person white or Asian?  You don't see how problematic that is? 

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Report: one gunman suspected in Colorado shootings
« Reply #66 on: December 12, 2007, 10:58:09 PM »
We agree on much of this, particularly your first and last paragraphs.

What you essentially said in your second paragraph is race is sometimes determined by appearance, which is true.  That just confirms my belief that race-based statistics are unreliable.   
no, it could confirm they are partially off, not unreliable.  like anything there's going to be room for error of course.  I give that, but when you note extemes in the statistical trends as I have, that can indeed point out valid trends.  Which is no big deal as we agree on one being a product of environment/culture.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Report: one gunman suspected in Colorado shootings
« Reply #67 on: December 12, 2007, 11:00:35 PM »
Is it really?  I'm pretty sure that certain parts of the government considers Hispanics and Jews to be "white" when it comes to certain race-based categories. 

I can pick out a hapa a mile away, but is a German/Japanese person white or Asian?  You don't see how problematic that is? 
Jews are still recorded as white but they have stopped recording hispanics as white.  A german/japanese is going to not likely be recorded as white, that's just a fact I have nothing to do with.