Author Topic: Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'  (Read 1651 times)

Dos Equis

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Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
« on: December 11, 2007, 10:41:50 AM »
Well at least one person thinks waterboarding is effective . . . but he also believes it is torture.

Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'     

NEW YORK (CNN) -- A former CIA agent who participated in interrogations of terror suspects said Tuesday that the controversial interrogation technique of "waterboarding" has saved lives, but he considers the method torture and now opposes its use.

Ex-CIA agent John Kiriakou says he underwent waterboarding in training and cracked in a few seconds.

 1 of 2  Former CIA operative John Kiriakou also told CNN's "American Morning" that he disagrees with a decision to destroy videotapes of certain interrogations, namely of al Qaeda's Abu Zubayda. Kiriakou made the remarks as two congressional committees prepared to grill CIA Director Michael Hayden on the destruction of the tapes and on "alternative" means of interrogation.

Waterboarding begins by placing a suspect on a table with the suspect's feet slightly elevated, said Kiriakou, who was waterboarded several years ago as part of his CIA training. He said he elected not to learn how to perform the technique, which is designed to emulate the sensation of drowning.

Once a suspect is secured on the table, interrogators wrap his or her face in a cellophane-like material, Kiriakou said.

"There is a bladder, or a water source, above the head with water pouring down on the mouth, so no water is going into your mouth, but it induces a gag reflex and makes you feel like you're choking," Kiriakou said.  Watch the ex-agent describe the procedure »

Kiriakou said he lasted only a few seconds during his training because his body felt like it was seizing up almost immediately.

"It's entirely unpleasant," Kiriakou said. "You are so full of tension that you tense up, your muscles tighten up. It's very uncomfortable."

Abu Zubayda lasted a little longer, said Kiriakou, but not much.

The former agent, who said he participated in the Abu Zubayda interrogation but not his waterboarding, said the CIA decided to waterboard the al Qaeda operative only after he was "wholly uncooperative" for weeks and refused to answer questions.

All that changed -- and Zubayda reportedly had a divine revelation -- after 30 to 35 seconds of waterboarding, Kiriakou said he learned from the CIA agents who performed the technique.

The terror suspect, who is being held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, reportedly gave up information that indirectly led to the the 2003 raid in Pakistan yielding the arrest of Khalid Sheik Mohammed, an alleged planner of the September 11, 2001, attacks, Kiriakou said.

The CIA was unaware of Mohammed's stature before the Abu Zubayda interrogation, the former agent said.

"Abu Zubayda's the one who told us that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was so important in the al Qaeda structure, and we didn't realize at the time how important he was," Kiriakou said.

Abu Zubayda also divulged information on "al Qaeda's leadership structure and mentioned people who we really didn't have any familiarization with [and] told us who we should be thinking about, who we should be looking at, and who was important in the organization so we were able to focus our investigation this way," Kiriakou said.

Abu Zubayda reportedly told the agent who waterboarded him that "Allah had visited him in his cell during the night and told him to cooperate because it would make it easier on the other brothers who had been captured," Kiriakou said.

Though the information wrenched from Abu Zubayda "stopped terrorist attacks and saved lives," Kiriakou said he opposes waterboarding.

"Now after after all these years, time has passed, and we're more on our feet in this fight against al Qaeda, and I think it's unnecessary," he said.

In a separate CNN interview, Kiriakou said the Justice Department and National Security Council reportedly approved waterboarding and other "alternative" interrogation techniques in June 2002.

"It was a policy decision that came down from the White House," he said.

Despite the executive blessing, Kiriakou and other agents were conflicted over whether to learn the technique, he said.

"One senior officer said to me that this is something you really have to think deeply about," the former agent said, adding he "struggled with it morally."

Kiriakou conceded his position might be hypocritical and said that the technique was useful -- even if he wanted to distance himself from it.

"Waterboarding was an important technique, and some of these other techniques were important in collecting the information," he said. "But I personally didn't want to do it. I didn't think it was right in the long run, and I didn't want to be associated with it."

As for the tapes of the interrogations, Kiriakou -- who claims neither he nor the other CIA agents realized they were being recorded during the Abu Zubayda interrogation -- said he disagrees with the decision to destroy the tapes.

"I don't see the reason to destroy them," Kiriakou said. "There's a possibility that they could be used in a criminal investigation, and frankly, for the historical record, I think it's important to have things like that maintained."

The Justice Department and CIA have announced a preliminary inquiry into the matter. Hayden, the CIA director, is slated to go before congressional committees Tuesday and Wednesday.


Hayden has said the CIA destroyed the tapes "only after it was determined they were no longer of intelligence value and not relevant to any internal, legislative or judicial inquiries."

Congressional leaders said they were never properly notified about the decision.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/11/agent.tapes/index.html

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Re: Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2007, 11:21:30 AM »
Well at least one person thinks waterboarding is effective . . . but he also believes it is torture.

US signed agreement to follow Geneva Convention rules on torture.

I don't care what this man believes.  It is irrelevant.  Waterboarding was considered torture until Bush took over.  Now it's vague, huh?  I honestly don't know the difference between a kamikaze pilot (you went to prison if you tortured in WWII) and a suicide bomber.  They will both die for their belief. 

Don't get me wrong, I have no love for terrorists and would be happy to plug ten of them to make my point.  So none of the liberal namecalling, bitches.  But if we're going to do it, let's pull out of Geneva.  You tell our soldiers.  They won't be happy at all about it.

Decker

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Re: Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2007, 11:59:31 AM »
US signed agreement to follow Geneva Convention rules on torture.

I don't care what this man believes.  It is irrelevant.  Waterboarding was considered torture until Bush took over.  Now it's vague, huh?  I honestly don't know the difference between a kamikaze pilot (you went to prison if you tortured in WWII) and a suicide bomber.  They will both die for their belief. 

Don't get me wrong, I have no love for terrorists and would be happy to plug ten of them to make my point.  So none of the liberal namecalling, bitches.  But if we're going to do it, let's pull out of Geneva.  You tell our soldiers.  They won't be happy at all about it.
The Bush administration created the fiction that torture is not torture unless there is organ failure resulting from the technique. 

There is no legal precedent to that, The Bush people just pulled it out of their asses to sound authoritative and conclusive on the matter.  It's pure fiction. 

Yet the US is now among the Commies, the Nazis and the Mafia as torture practitioners.  You can tell a lot about someone from the company he keeps.

Victor VonDoom

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Re: Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2007, 12:06:47 PM »
Doom disapproves.

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Re: Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2007, 12:08:12 PM »
Yet the US is now among the Commies, the Nazis and the Mafia as torture practitioners. 

I'd like to hear BB or someone else refute this.

Why was it wrong when the Commies and Nazis tortured, but right when we do it?

Decker

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Re: Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2007, 12:08:28 PM »
It also is enlightening to know that when the fate of the free world hung in the balance in WWII, the US did not adopt torture as an interrogation policy.

Or when nuclear annhilation was in the air in the '60s, the US didn't adopt torture as its policy.

Only under Bush did this come to be.

The Bush administration has undercut the American Way of Life.  

In other words, the Bush Administration has been pretty much Unamerican in the execution of its duties.

Dos Equis

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Re: Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2007, 12:37:53 PM »
I'd like to hear BB or someone else refute this.

Why was it wrong when the Commies and Nazis tortured, but right when we do it?

Refute what?  How can you refute hyperbole? 

Dos Equis

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Re: Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2007, 12:39:06 PM »
Here is one person who doesn't believe the Geneva Convention applies to terrorists:

The Geneva Convention does not apply to terrorists
Mary Mostert Mary Mostert
November 19, 2004

MSNBC reported on Wednesday in the Fallujah fighting that "a U.S. Marine was killed and five others were wounded when the booby-trapped body of a dead insurgent exploded." That happened the same day that NBC's Kevin Sites reported that a US Marine killed "a wounded an apparently unarmed Iraqi prisoner inside a mosque." Sites observed that "the Iraqi was a wounded prisoner and did not pose a threat."

Sites said the incident unfolded this way:

"The Marine battalion stormed an unidentified mosque Saturday in southern Fallujah after taking casualties from heavy sniper fire and attacks with rocket-propelled grenades. Ten insurgents were killed and five others were wounded in the mosque and an adjacent building."

While the first incident does not seem to have gotten much attention, the second one has become worldwide news. Al Jazeera, which broadcast the pictures and Sites' story, said the second incident "shocked Arab television audiences and the pictures dealt a major blow to the image of the U.S. occupation forces in Iraq."

Al Jazeera also stated "The United Nations senior human rights official condemned the killing of civilians and wounded people in Fallujah, saying that violators of international humanitarian law should be brought to justice."

Neither Al Jazeera nor Kevin Sites tells their readers why the Marines attacked the mosque. According to the US Marine website report of the incident, written by written by Sgt. Robert E. Jones,

"Marines of Company K, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, assaulted a mosque recently, in Fallujah during Operation Al Fajr; by a tactical assault with air strikes and artillery fire. The Mosque was one storage facility for weapons used by insurgents to assault United States forces."

This story is of considerable interest to me since my son, Dr. Guy Grooms of Muskogee, Oklahoma, was the battalion surgeon for the same Marine unit involved in this story and was with those Marines when they liberated Kuwait City in 1991. In similar battles with the Iraqis, prisoners were taken and taken to him for medical treatment after they had been searched for weapons. However, sometimes the rules were not followed.

He was preparing one Iraqi prisoner for treatment when, in cutting off his shirt, he spotted booby trap wires. Fortunately, the explosives did not detonate before my son and his medics bolted out of the tent.

We are being told that the Iraqi in the mosque was a prisoner of War and therefore should have been treated in accordance with the Geneva Conventions. Actually, he was not a prisoner of war since he had not been under the control of nor guarded by the Marines. While it was Sites' opinion that the Iraqi was unarmed, from the account Sites' gave, the Marine had a different opinion. The Marine Commander's goal in battle is bringing his men home, not playing guessing games with reporters.

According to Article IV of the Geneva Convention,(http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm) prisoners of war are: "Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, color, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria."

It also states it applies to:

"Persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfill the following conditions:

That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

That of carrying arms openly;

That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

The Iraqi wired to explosives that was brought to my son for treatment did not fit those criteria. And, certainly the Iraqi in the Fallujah Mosque did not fit the criteria inasmuch as he was not in uniform, his leader is not conducting operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war and many of his ilk do not carry their weapons openly.

The government of Iraq and by far most of the people of Fallujah are on the same side as the US Marines. When the Iraq government urged the people of Fullujah to leave the city, most of them did so. Those assaulting the US and Iraqi forces in Fullujah are not Iraq's military or an opposing political party. They are Iraq's criminals.

It would be helpful if reporters like Kevin Sites could manage to get that straight.

http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/mostert/041119

Tre

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Re: Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2007, 12:45:00 PM »
Here is one person who doesn't believe the Geneva Convention applies to terrorists:

But here's the thing - I could give less than a damn about the Geneva Convention when it comes to torture. 

Torture is barbaric and un-American, period. 

Although I'm saddened by how far this idiot has 'succeeded' in setting us back, I'm disturbed that so many Americans still buy his bullshit. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2007, 12:51:12 PM »
But here's the thing - I could give less than a damn about the Geneva Convention when it comes to torture. 

Torture is barbaric and un-American, period. 

Although I'm saddened by how far this idiot has 'succeeded' in setting us back, I'm disturbed that so many Americans still buy his bullshit. 

I agree torture--the way we typically define it--is barbaric and un-American.  But what you have these days is people contending any kind of harsh interrogation and punishment are torture.  Sleeping in a cold room.  No blankets.  Too much light.   ::) 

I've said this before, but what I went through in Basic Training would be outlawed under the definition of torture used by some of the people complaining about how we treat suspected terrorists today. 

I'm also a little torn about what to do if we know a certain tactic will save American lives.  You have to draw the line somewhere, but I don't think it is as cut and dried as some make it out to be.     

Tre

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Re: Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2007, 01:00:47 PM »
The Department of Homeland Security  ::) is supposed to protect us.  What do we need to torture anyone for? 

And with all the money we've given the DHS, how is it that we still have domestic terrorists on the loose?  There are just as many terrorist attacks in the U.S. now as there were before the DHS was formed.  Those bitches ain't doing shit!

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Re: Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2007, 01:40:05 PM »
whats the difference between a japanese kamikaze and a muslim extremist?

BB?

They'll both give life for the cause in most cowardly manner.

Dos Equis

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Re: Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2007, 01:52:12 PM »
 ???  Decker compared the U.S. to "Commies, the Nazis and the Mafia."

Hyperbole.   


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Re: Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2007, 02:40:53 PM »
If an enemy is not considered a POW then it is not torture under the Geneva convention.  I'm not sure how the Terrorists are classified but they are non-state actors and the nature of war has shifted as the enemy has changed.  As far as the Vietnam War, we just killed the enemy and then some.  You can't torture people shot or burned by napalm.  The rules of engagement were soldier-friendly then.  Now we have to capture everyone.  Hell, if you have a weapon and point it at me you should be killed.  Now you get brought up on charges.

If there was a better nicer way it wouldn't work.  What else can we do to get intel? Suggestions?  First hand intel from combatants is good and necessary.
Squishy face retard

Tre

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Re: Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2007, 03:47:20 PM »
If an enemy is not considered a POW then it is not torture under the Geneva convention.

Hold on.

It's the Bush people and apologists who keep referring to their so-called 'War on Terror'. 

If it's a 'war' - THEIR WORDS - then wouldn't the prisoners of said war be 'POWs', by definition?

Even still, though, I could care less how the prisoners are labeled.  WE should not stand for torture in this country.  By promoting or condoning it, we are no better than the other savages in the world.


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Re: Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2007, 03:52:38 PM »
Hold on.

It's the Bush people and apologists who keep referring to their so-called 'War on Terror'. 

If it's a 'war' - THEIR WORDS - then wouldn't the prisoners of said war be 'POWs', by definition?

Even still, though, I could care less how the prisoners are labeled.  WE should not stand for torture in this country.  By promoting or condoning it, we are no better than the other savages in the world.


Labels mean everything.  Why do you think we stripped Noriega of military uniform before arresting him?  He would have been a POW otherwise.  This is nothing new. 

I wouldn't call it barbaric, especially in comparison to the shit other countries do.  For debate purposes, what would you propose for information extraction?  Would beating be better than torture?  Are they the same? 
Squishy face retard

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Re: Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2007, 04:41:59 PM »
The Department of Homeland Security  ::) is supposed to protect us.  What do we need to torture anyone for? 

And with all the money we've given the DHS, how is it that we still have domestic terrorists on the loose?  There are just as many terrorist attacks in the U.S. now as there were before the DHS was formed.  Those bitches ain't doing shit!

DHS is a bunch of organizations that already existed, and combined them together, for better law enforcement and intelligence sharing.. easy to criticize, but you dont even know the first thing about it.