Was Enoch Raptured?

[OzmO]

Gen 5:24,  And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; For God took him.

I'm curious about this, I've had conservative Christians tell me he was raptured and I'm curious about what some of the conservative Christians on this forum think.

Also, if he was raptured, then does it contradict this verse:

John 3:13  No man hath ascended up to heaven.

?

[loco]

This is a very old alledged contradiction, OzmO.  I'll post an answer when I get a chance.  For now,

1. Heavens in the Bible can mean one of three different things.  We'd have to see which is it that Jesus in John 3:13 is talking about. 

2.  Enoch and Elliah were both "taken up" by God out of this world, but not necessarily into the "Third Heaven" where God is, and they did not ascend on their own. 

3. We'd have to look at John 3:13 in context and see what Jesus is talking about: Is Jesus just saying that no man has "gone up" in the flesh, or is Jesus in John 3:13 establishing the authority of his message by saying that no man has gone up into the presence of God to bring back new revelations, a new message, good news from God?

[OzmO]

This is a very old alledged contradiction, OzmO.  I'll post an answer when I get a chance.  For now,

1. Heavens in the Bible can mean one of three different things.  We'd have to see which is it that Jesus in John 3:13 is talking about. 

2.  Enoch and Elliah were both "taken up" by God out of this world, but not necessarily into the "Third Heaven" where God is, and they did not ascend on their own. 

3. We'd have to look at John 3:13 in context and see what Jesus is talking about: Is Jesus just saying that no man has "gone up" in the flesh, or is Jesus in John 3:13 establishing the authority of his message by saying that no man has gone up into the presence of God to bring back new revelations, a new message, good news from God?

thanks,

I'll stay tuned for more elaboration. 

[Deicide]

Gen 5:24,  And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; For God took him.

I'm curious about this, I've had conservative Christians tell me he was raptured and I'm curious about what some of the conservative Christians on this forum think.

Also, if he was raptured, then does it contradict this verse:

John 3:13  No man hath ascended up to heaven.

?

Enoch didn't exist.

[loco]

Enoch didn't exist.

Let him be, Trapezkerl!  This isn't about Enoch.  This is about OzmO making a point, that "the Bible is not 100% the word of God".  That's what most of his threads on this board are all about.  OzmO asks questions he doesn't care to understand the answer to.  But we "Bible thumper nuts" on the board will patiently answer his questions anyway.

[Deicide]

Let him be, Trapezkerl!  This isn't about Enoch.  This is about OzmO making a point, that "the Bible is not 100% the word of God".  That's what most of his threads on this board are all about.  OzmO asks questions he doesn't care to understand the answer to.  But we "Bible thumper nuts" on the board will patiently answer his questions anyway.

Right, right...

[OzmO]

Let him be, Trapezkerl!  This isn't about Enoch.  This is about OzmO making a point, that "the Bible is not 100% the word of God".  That's what most of his threads on this board are all about.  OzmO asks questions he doesn't care to understand the answer to.  But we "Bible thumper nuts" on the board will patiently answer his questions anyway.

Man, loco, i can see why you would think such a thing, but really, this is not the case.  I really want to know about this issue.

Yes, most of what i do here is debate that exact point of the Bible not being the 100% WOG.  It's the most interesting thing on the forum for me these days, reading how many people justify contradictions and absurdity in the Bible to maintain the asertion hte bible is the WOG.  But you already know what i believe in that regard and i hope you do not categorically label my question or all other future questions about the literature of the Bible and some of it's historical figures as trying to debate it or "bait" you or someone else into a debate of such.

I've tried to be forth coming in my questioning of the bible and will continue to do so as more issues come up but in this case i am asking a question based on my  interest of Enoch and that verse in Genesis.

I have always been interested in some of the people in the OT.   Enoch is one of them. 

Why did God take him?
Where did God take him?
Was he raptured?
Why is the Book of Enoch included int he Bible?
Who was Enoch as why is he an important figure?
What were his prophecies?

These are some of my interests in him.

[OzmO]

Enoch didn't exist.

I think there is more evidence that Enoch existed than there is evidence that he didn't.   Now, i'm not sure all the things Enoch did, so that might be fictional, but the person most likely existed otherwise, why would there be anything written about him?

[Deicide]

I think there is more evidence that Enoch existed than there is evidence that he didn't.   Now, i'm not sure all the things Enoch did, so that might be fictional, but the person most likely existed otherwise, why would there be anything written about him?

There's about as much evidence that Enoch existed as there is for Hercules, Theseus, Achilles, Odysseus, Jason (of the Golden Fleece) or any other mythological figure.

Please, Oz, I want to believe you are smarter than that. Just because a name is in a book, does not mean the name has a real person behind it.

Adam and Eve?! Names in a book...etc...

[OzmO]

There's about as much evidence that Enoch existed as there is for Hercules, Theseus, Achilles, Odysseus, Jason (of the Golden Fleece) or any other mythological figure.

Please, Oz, I want to believe you are smarter than that. Just because a name is in a book, does not mean the name has a real person behind it.

Adam and Eve?! Names in a book...etc...

All those people probably existed at some level, except Hercules, but what likely didn't exists is all the fantastical things they did. And their names were probably different, such as Jesus not being named Jesus until years after his death.  Those are stories written about people who over the years other people have added and altered into the myths we read today.

Every Rumor has an element of truth.  That doesn't mean all the "super natural stuff" is true or even some of it, it means some element of the rumor is true even if it is a most insignificant part of it.

Adam and Eve and the story of Cain and Able have some similarities to other creation stories in other cultures.  Did Adam and Eve actually exist as the Bible says?  Probably no more that Osiris and Ra and company, but those stories are based on something but probably not at the level Enoch was, because Enoch wrote prophecy and events occurred around him in many stories while, Adam and Eve were just written about and it's obvious when viewed objectively that Adam and Eve were more symbolic  than anything else to explain the "Creation of Man"

[Deicide]

All those people probably existed at some level, except Hercules, but what likely didn't exists is all the fantastical things they did. And their names were probably different, such as Jesus not being named Jesus until years after his death.  Those are stories written about people who over the years other people have added and altered into the myths we read today.

Every Rumor has an element of truth.  That doesn't mean all the "super natural stuff" is true or even some of it, it means some element of the rumor is true even if it is a most insignificant part of it.

Adam and Eve and the story of Cain and Able have some similarities to other creation stories in other cultures.  Did Adam and Eve actually exist as the Bible says?  Probably no more that Osiris and Ra and company, but those stories are based on something but probably not at the level Enoch was, because Enoch wrote prophecy and events occurred around him in many stories while, Adam and Eve were just written about and it's obvious when viewed objectively that Adam and Eve were more symbolic  than anything else to explain the "Creation of Man"

Well, sure, all those peoplemay have existed BUT we know nothing about their actual lives, what they did, when they lived, etc. As such it is blind speculation and wishful thinking to believe that meaningful information can be extracted from ancient mythology about their persons.

[OzmO]

Well, sure, all those peoplemay have existed BUT we know nothing about their actual lives, what they did, when they lived, etc.

Exactly.  But as i was saying earlier, there is more evidence they did exist and as both of us have pointed it probably wasn't in the context or detail they've been depicted in.

As such it is blind speculation and wishful thinking to believe that meaningful information can be extracted from ancient mythology about their persons.

True, but meaningful information is often translated by the stories themselves, stories of morality, struggles, over coming obstacles etc...

Some scholars and researchers have even proposed that some myths were a way of transferring scientific information in the form of stories.  I'll try and dig up some stuff on that, i believe i read about a book called "Hamlet's Mill", that theorized that.

[Deicide]

Exactly.  But as i was saying earlier, there is more evidence they did exist and as both of us have pointed it probably wasn't in the context or detail they've been depicted in.

True, but meaningful information is often translated by the stories themselves, stories of morality, struggles, over coming obstacles etc...

Some scholars and researchers have even proposed that some myths were a way of transferring scientific information in the form of stories.  I'll try and dig up some stuff on that, i believe i read about a book called "Hamlet's Mill", that theorized that.

All lost to time; they might as well have never existed.

[OzmO]

All lost to time; they might as well have never existed.

Yet their memories live on.................

[Deicide]

Yet their memories live on.................

The 'memories' are worthless, hundreds or thousands of years after the fact. At that point the accuracy is up at 0% percent for the stories.

[OzmO]

The 'memories' are worthless, hundreds or thousands of years after the fact. At that point the accuracy is up at 0% percent for the stories.

boy you really have it out for religion don't you?

Let's take the story of Noah and the flood.   Are you saying there was never a flood?  I'm NOT talking about a worldwide deluge.  I'm talking about a flood, as good size one.  Do you doubt there were survivors?  Do you doubt that similar flood stories from many different cultures are probably based on some large flood?  Do you doubt there were people who were prepared and loaded some of their animals on a boat dock on some river?  Do you doubt that with a primitive people's knowledge that chances are they thought the whole might have flooded when they couldn't see any land for miles in all directions?

So, saying the accuracy is at 0% is a little extreme when looked at in this context.

All these myths and stories are based on some truth.

To say Enoch never existed is in all likely hood false.  To say all of these myths have 0% accuracy is false also(which i know you are not saying, i think).  I'm sure some do.

[Deicide]

boy you really have it out for religion don't you?

Let's take the story of Noah and the flood.   Are you saying there was never a flood?  I'm NOT talking about a worldwide deluge.  I'm talking about a flood, as good size one.  Do you doubt there were survivors?  Do you doubt that similar flood stories from many different cultures are probably based on some large flood?  Do you doubt there were people who were prepared and loaded some of their animals on a boat dock on some river?  Do you doubt that with a primitive people's knowledge that chances are they thought the whole might have flooded when they couldn't see any land for miles in all directions?

So, saying the accuracy is at 0% is a little extreme when looked at in this context.

All these myths and stories are based on some truth.

To say Enoch never existed is in all likely hood false.  To say all of these myths have 0% accuracy is false also(which i know you are not saying, i think).  I'm sure some do.

I'm not saying he didn't exist; I'm saying he may have well never existed. We know nothing about such a figure and all we can do is speculate; that is the point.