Author Topic: Jesus Christ is a myth?  (Read 6351 times)

EL Mariachi

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Jesus Christ is a myth?
« on: December 15, 2007, 04:34:59 PM »
discuss

loco

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Re: Jesus Christ is a myth?
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2007, 09:23:01 PM »
Jesus Christ is no myth

Dos Equis

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Re: Jesus Christ is a myth?
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2007, 09:58:24 PM »
He's real.   :)

OzmO

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Re: Jesus Christ is a myth?
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2007, 10:13:36 PM »
I don't think he is.

He is real.

Deicide

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Re: Jesus Christ is a myth?
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2007, 10:16:03 PM »
Yes, Jesus Christ was and is a myth in the following ways:

Quote
So, then, Christ may be said to be a fiction in the four senses that 1) it is quite possible that there was no historical Jesus. 2) Even if there was, he is lost to us, the result being that there is no historical Jesus available to us. And 3) the Jesus who "walks with me and talks with me and tells me I am his own" is an imaginative visualization and in the nature of the case can be nothing more than a fiction. And finally, 4) "Christ" as a corporate logo for this and that religious institution is a euphemistic fiction, not unlike Ronald McDonald, Mickey Mouse, or Joe Camel, the purpose of which is to get you to swallow a whole raft of beliefs, attitudes, and behaviors by an act of simple faith, short-circuiting the dangerous process of thinking the issues out to your own conclusions.
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loco

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Re: Jesus Christ is a myth?
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2007, 06:02:54 AM »
Yes, Jesus Christ was and is a myth in the following ways:


Trapezkerl,
Do you want Jesus to be a myth?  Would it disapoint you if it could be proven that Jesus is not a myth?

Deicide

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Re: Jesus Christ is a myth?
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2007, 07:58:20 AM »
Trapezkerl,
Do you want Jesus to be a myth?  Would it disapoint you if it could be proven that Jesus is not a myth?

I don't care either way. I go where the evidence leads. It has not been proven yet and I awaiting the evidence.
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OzmO

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Re: Jesus Christ is a myth?
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2007, 10:39:40 AM »
I don't care either way. I go where the evidence leads. It has been proven yet and I awaiting the evidence.

History and archeology must be a very small book to you sir.   ;D

columbusdude82

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Re: Jesus Christ is a myth?
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2007, 10:53:48 AM »
History and archeology must be a very small book to you sir.   ;D

Archaeology? Wait, don't tell me...

Following loco's advice, you went to a "museum" that exhibited the splendid things Jesus built in his days in the carpentry shop, right?

OzmO

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Re: Jesus Christ is a myth?
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2007, 11:24:56 AM »
Archaeology? Wait, don't tell me...

Following loco's advice, you went to a "museum" that exhibited the splendid things Jesus built in his days in the carpentry shop, right?

No, actually, because Jesus is mentioned in a book outside of the Bible, it means that everything he did in the Bible is 100% true.

EL Mariachi

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Re: Jesus Christ is a myth?
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2007, 02:03:11 PM »
No, actually, because Jesus is mentioned in a book outside of the Bible, it means that everything he did in the Bible is 100% true.


Yeah in a book, probably a fantasy book ::)  can you prove otherwise? ;)

Decker

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Re: Jesus Christ is a myth?
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2007, 03:25:18 PM »
Wasn't Philo a contemporary of Jesus and the most eminent historian of his day?

Philo never mentioned Jesus once.

I don't think he existed.  There are too many literary thematic devices used to tell his story and they predate christ:  Virgin Birth, Guiding Star, 3 Wise Men, Son of God--Savior and Redeemer and a whole lot more.

Dos Equis

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Re: Jesus Christ is a myth?
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2007, 03:33:55 PM »
Wasn't Philo a contemporary of Jesus and the most eminent historian of his day?

Philo never mentioned Jesus once.

I don't think he existed.  There are too many literary thematic devices used to tell his story and they predate christ:  Virgin Birth, Guiding Star, 3 Wise Men, Son of God--Savior and Redeemer and a whole lot more.

Uh oh.  I smell a loco smack down coming . . . .  :D

OzmO

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Re: Jesus Christ is a myth?
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2007, 05:14:21 PM »
Uh oh.  I smell a loco smack down coming . . . .  :D

Probably not.  He doesn't much other than what he believes or what he considers good enough for him.

OzmO

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Re: Jesus Christ is a myth?
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2007, 05:15:11 PM »

Yeah in a book, probably a fantasy book ::)  can you prove otherwise? ;)


I'll leave that all to the resident fundies.....  my post was in sarcasm  ;D

Deicide

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Re: Jesus Christ is a myth?
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2007, 05:41:06 PM »
History and archeology must be a very small book to you sir.   ;D

When we have enough historical evidence for the alleged Jesus of the (then) non-existent Nazareth as we do for such figures as Julius Caesar, Cicero and Charlemagne we can talk. The fact is Ozmo, you haven't done the research. Look into the matter and see just how little concrete evidence there is for Jesus. Why then for example were there Christians in the 1st century CE who believed he had lived 100 years prior in the 1st century BCE? The extrabiblical evidence is thin and what we do have, upon further investigation, are outright forgeries or 50/50 shots, not concrete, detailed evidence.
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Deicide

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Re: Jesus Christ is a myth?
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2007, 05:46:23 PM »
Wasn't Philo a contemporary of Jesus and the most eminent historian of his day?

Philo never mentioned Jesus once.

I don't think he existed.  There are too many literary thematic devices used to tell his story and they predate christ:  Virgin Birth, Guiding Star, 3 Wise Men, Son of God--Savior and Redeemer and a whole lot more.

That stuff too, but even if you just look at the extrabibical evidence, it is pathetic.
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OzmO

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Re: Jesus Christ is a myth?
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2007, 07:40:00 PM »
When we have enough historical evidence for the alleged Jesus of the (then) non-existent Nazareth as we do for such figures as Julius Caesar, Cicero and Charlemagne we can talk. The fact is Ozmo, you haven't done the research. Look into the matter and see just how little concrete evidence there is for Jesus. Why then for example were there Christians in the 1st century CE who believed he had lived 100 years prior in the 1st century BCE? The extrabiblical evidence is thin and what we do have, upon further investigation, are outright forgeries or 50/50 shots, not concrete, detailed evidence.

all from what?  We had this discussion earlier, chances are he did exist, but not in the capacity others would believe.

Dos Equis

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Re: Jesus Christ is a myth?
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2007, 10:53:56 PM »
Probably not.  He doesn't much other than what he believes or what he considers good enough for him.

I was half-joking.  He has posted info about evidence of Jesus before.  The man is an encyclopedia. 

Deicide

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Re: Jesus Christ is a myth?
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2007, 05:03:41 AM »
all from what?  We had this discussion earlier, chances are he did exist, but not in the capacity others would believe.

Much like Achilles, Hercules and Theseus...back to that game again, are we?
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loco

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Re: Jesus Christ is a myth?
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2007, 07:14:40 AM »

Yeah in a book, probably a fantasy book ::)  can you prove otherwise? ;)

Jesus Christ is mentioned in more than just one ancient book outside of the Bible, and no they are not fantacy books, but let's just start with the New Testament.  Why discard the New Testament?

Did you know that the New Testament is more accurate and reliable than any other ancient writing in existance today?  Did you know that the New Testament documents are better preserved and more numerous than any other ancient writing?  Because they are so numerous, they can be cross checked for accuracy...and they are very consistent.

There are presently 5,686 Greek manuscripts in existence today for the New Testament.  If we were to compare the number of New Testament manuscripts to other ancient writings, we find that the New Testament manuscripts far outweigh the others in quantity.

Just one example:

Aristotle's ancient writings date 384-322 B.C..  The earliest copy we have is from 1,100 A.D..  The approximate time span between original & copy is 1,400 years.  We have only 49 copies.

Ceasar's ancient writings date 100-44 B.C..  The earliest copy we have is from 900 A.D..  The approximate time span between original & copy is 1,000 years.  We have only 10 copies.

The New Testament on the other hand dates 1st Cent. A.D. (50-100 A.D.).  The earliest copies we have are from 2nd Cent. A.D. (130 A.D.).  The approximate time span between original & copy is less than 100 years.  We have 5,686 copies.

loco

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Re: Jesus Christ is a myth?
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2007, 07:17:23 AM »
Wasn't Philo a contemporary of Jesus and the most eminent historian of his day?

Philo never mentioned Jesus once.

I don't think he existed.  There are too many literary thematic devices used to tell his story and they predate christ:  Virgin Birth, Guiding Star, 3 Wise Men, Son of God--Savior and Redeemer and a whole lot more.

Scholarly response to the Jesus Myth Hypothesis:
 
"There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church's imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more."
Burridge, R & Gould, G, Jesus Now and Then, Wm. B. Eerdmans, 2004, p.34.
 
The classical historian Michael Grant writes:
"To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first rank scholars.' In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary." 
 
Michael Grant does not see the similarities between Christianity and pagan religions to be significant. Grant states that "Judaism was a milieu to which doctrines of the deaths and rebirths, of mythical gods seemed so entirely foreign that the emergence of such a fabrication from its midst is very hard to credit."
Grant, Michael (1995). Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels. Scribner, 199. ISBN 978-0684818672 .

 
R.T. France points out that Christianity was actively opposed by both the Roman Empire and the Jewish authorities, and would have been utterly discredited if Jesus had been shown as a non-historical figure. He argues that there is evidence in Pliny, Josephus and other sources of the Roman and Jewish approaches at the time, and none of them involved this suggestion.
 
In response to Jesus-myth proponents who argue the lack of early non-Christian sources, or question their authenticity, R. T. France counters that "even the great histories of Tacitus have survived in only two manuscripts, which together contain scarcely half of what he is believed to have written, the rest is lost" and that the life of Jesus, from a Roman point of view, was not a major
event.
 
R.T France disagrees with the notion that the Apostle Paul did not speak of Jesus as a physical being. He argues that arguments from silence are unreliable and that there are several references to historical facts about Jesus's life in Paul's letters, such as that Jesus "who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David" (Romans 1:3, TNIV).
France, RT (1986). Evidence for Jesus (Jesus Library). Trafalgar Square Publishing, 19-20. ISBN 0340381728.   
 
Supporting a historical Jesus
Bovon, François (2006). The Last Days of Jesus, trans. Kristin Hennessy; Louisville: Westminster, John Knox. ISBN 0664230075.
   
Burridge, Richard A. (2006). Four Gospels, One Jesus? A Symbolic Reading, 2nd edn., Grand Rapids:Eerdmans. ISBN 0802829805 .
 
Charlesworth, James H. (ed.) (2006). Jesus and Archaeology. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans. ISBN 080284880X. 
 
Grant, Michael [1977] (1999). Jesus. London: Phoenix. ISBN 0-75380-899-4.   

Komoszewski, J. Ed ; et al (2006). Reinventing Jesus. Kregel Publications. ISBN 082542982X.   

Meier, John P. A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus, 3 vols., New York: Doubleday.   
(1991) The Roots of the Problem and the Person. ISBN 0-385-26425-9 .
 
(1994) Mentor, Message, and Miracles. ISBN 0-385-46992-6 . 

(2001) Companions and Competitors. ISBN 0-385-46993-4 . 

Sanders, E. P. (1993). The Historical Figure of Jesus. London: Allen Lane. ISBN 0-7139-9059-7.   

Theissen, Gerd; and Annette Merz (1998). The Historical Jesus: A Comprehensive Guide , trans. John Bowden, Minneapolis: Fortress Press. ISBN 0-8006-3123-4.   

Wright, NT (1996). The New Testament and the People of God. Augsburg Fortress Publishers. ISBN 0800626818.   

loco

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Re: Jesus Christ is a myth?
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2007, 07:18:53 AM »
Josephus Jewish Antiquities (c.93 C.E.)
(later interpolations in brackets)


"Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man [if it be lawful to call him a man], for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. [He was the Messiah.] And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him [for he appeared to them alive again at the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him]. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this date.1


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Pliny the Younger Letter to Trajan (c.111-117 C.E.)

"...they maintained that their fault or error amounted to nothing more than this: they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before sunrise and reciting an antiphonal hymn to Christ as God, and binding themselves with an oath not to commit any crime, but to abstain from all acts of theft, robbery and adultery, from breaches of faith, from repudiating a trust when called upon to honour it."2


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Tacitus Roman Annals (c.115-117 C.E.)

"They got their name from Christ, who was executed by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. That checked the pernicious superstition for a short time, but it broke out afresh--not only in Judea, where the plague first arose, but in Rome itself, where all the horrible and shameful things in the world collect and find a home."3


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Sanhedrin 43a (200-500 C.E.)

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu4 was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of Passover!"4


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Endnotes

1. Antiquities xviii. 33 (early second century) from F.F. Bruce, Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974), 37.
2. Pliny, Epistles x.96, from Bruce, p.26.
3. Tacitus, Annals xv, 44, from Bruce, p. 22.
Talmudic designation of Jesus.
4. "Sanhedrin," vol 3 of Nezikin, Babylonian Talmud, edited by Isidore Epstein, reprint (London: Soncino, 1938), 281.

loco

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Re: Jesus Christ is a myth?
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2007, 07:19:34 AM »
Josephus on Jesus - Testimonium Flavianum - Arabic Version
 
"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to themafter his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."
 
Arabic summary, presumably of Antiquities 18.63. From Agapios' Kitab al-'Unwan ("Book of the Title," 10th c.).
The translation belongs to Shlomo Pines. See also James H. Charlesworth, Jesus Within Judaism.

loco

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Re: Jesus Christ is a myth?
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2007, 07:20:56 AM »
Concerning Albinus Under Whose Procuratorship James Was Slain; As
Also What Edifices Were Built By Agrippa.


1. And now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus
into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the
high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on
the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the
report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man;
for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high
priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long
time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high
priests. But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you
already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper,
and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, (23)
who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of
the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus
was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper
opportunity [to exercise his authority]. Festus was now dead, and
Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of
judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was
called Christ
, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some
of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against
them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but
as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and
such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they
disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa],
desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for
that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some
of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey
from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for
Ananus to assemble a sanhedrim without his consent. (24)
Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in
anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to
punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the
high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and
made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.

Antiquities of the Jews by Flavius Josephus - Book 20, Chapter 9
http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=2359&pageno=648