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Author Topic: Eternal Security according to the Bible  (Read 4966 times)
Purge_WTF
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« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2007, 10:19:28 AM »

  I wonder about this myself. On one hand, it would stand to reason that salvation is conditional, because it would be rather inconceivable for someone who was saved to get into heaven if he murdered someone afterward. On the other hand, if salvation is conditional, then what are the conditions? Are you "allowed" a certain number of sins after being saved before you lose your ticket to heaven?
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« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2007, 12:30:35 PM »

 On the other hand, if salvation is conditional, then what are the conditions? Are you "allowed" a certain number of sins after being saved before you lose your ticket to heaven?
Interesting question.  Then if you did "lose your ticket" could you ever be saved again?  And how? 

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« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2007, 08:28:22 PM »

From what I understand, there is no conditional for salvation, that the only unforgiveable sin is denying the holy spirit. (To deny the ultimate good, is to embrace the ultimate evil).  Anyone who has accepted Jesus will always be saved, no matter what the transgression. The reward for accepting the savior is resurrection/everlasting life.  The punishment for being "unsaved" is simply death... dead like Magritte. The soul will never awaken again.

The concept of hell as a pit of fire with the hapless sinner burning eternally is an embellishment on the original writings, at least, according to an interesting article I read awhile ago. It said something about the original hell, as depicted in scripture, being an actual "place" where thieves, murderers, etc.. were dumped after they had been executed. There, they baked (burned) in the fierce sun, and people could watch as the maggots and vermin devoured their corpses. The admonishment in scriptures was not to end up like them. It was Dante, et al who came up with demons and eternal burning torture metaphors.  But these images probably worked better to keep the unwashed masses in line, rather than the more esoteric concept.

I don't remember much of what I read, but I think the Jewish Kabbalah makes mention of some kind of heaven that may include reincarnation, but there is no hell and the onus is on living a good life and performing mitzvahs. It seems like a similar scenario to what was written in that article.
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« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2007, 09:32:41 AM »

even though he may not be a good person he can still be a Christian, phychopath or not. he could have commited every sin in the book, if he believes he will have eternal salvation..thats one of the problems i have with Christianity.

that is what's sad. 
non-believers think that all christians have that view- that we can do what we want and no matter what we go to heaven.
christian haters are ready to pounce on anyone that says they are Godly person and the moment they're caught doing something that goes against the Bible the haters scream "hypocrite"!!!!  and they view all Christians this way. 

true believers in Jesus Christ struggle everyday.  We try not to do the things that are not of God.  And when we do, we DON'T enjoy it, as I've read some implications here.  We commit sins everyday.  We do wrong too. 

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« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2011, 06:55:25 AM »

from gotquestions.org

Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"

Answer: Before this question is answered, the term “Christian” must be defined. A “Christian” is not a person who has said a prayer, or walked down an aisle, or been raised in a Christian family. While each of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are not what “makes” a Christian. A Christian is a person who has, by faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9).

So, with this definition in mind, can a Christian lose salvation? Perhaps the best way to answer this crucially important question is to examine what the Bible says occurs at salvation, and to study what losing salvation would therefore entail. Here are a few examples:

A Christian is a new creation. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17). This verse speaks of a person becoming an entirely new creature as a result of being “in Christ.” For a Christian to lose salvation, the new creation would have to be canceled and reversed.

A Christian is redeemed. “For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect” (1 Peter 1:18-19). The word “redeemed” refers to a purchase being made, a price being paid. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have to revoke His purchase that He paid for with the precious blood of Christ.

A Christian is justified. “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1). To “justify” means to “declare righteous.” All those who receive Jesus as Savior are “declared righteous” by God. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and “un-declare” what He had previously declared.

A Christian is promised eternal life. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Eternal life is a promise of eternity (forever) in heaven with God. God promises, “Believe and you will have eternal life.” For a Christian to lose salvation, eternal life would have to be taken away. If a Christian is promised to live forever, how then can God break this promise by taking away eternal life?

A Christian is guaranteed glorification. “And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified” (Romans 8:30). As we learned in Romans 5:1, justification is declared at the moment of faith. According to Romans 8:30, glorification is guaranteed for all those whom God justifies. Glorification refers to a Christian receiving a perfect resurrection body in heaven. If a Christian can lose salvation, then Romans 8:30 is in error, because God could not guarantee glorification for all those whom He predestines, calls, and justifies.

Many more illustrations of what occurs at salvation could be shared. Even these few make it abundantly clear that a Christian cannot lose salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when we receive Jesus Christ as Savior would be invalidated if salvation could be lost. Salvation cannot be reversed. A Christian cannot be un-newly created. Redemption cannot be undone. Eternal life cannot be lost and still be considered eternal. If a Christian can lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and change His mind—two things that Scripture tells us God never does.

The most frequent objections to the belief that a Christian cannot lose salvation are 1) What about those who are Christians and continually live an immoral lifestyle? 2) What about those who are Christians but later reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem with these two objections is the phrase “who are Christians.” The Bible declares that a true Christian will not live a continually immoral lifestyle (1 John 3:6). The Bible declares that anyone who departs the faith is demonstrating that he never truly was a Christian (1 John 2:19). Therefore, neither objection is valid. Christians do not continually live immoral lifestyles, nor do they reject the faith and deny Christ. Such actions are proof that they were never redeemed.

No, a Christian cannot lose salvation. Nothing can separate a Christian from God’s love (Romans 8:38-39). Nothing can remove a Christian from God’s hand (John 10:28-29). God is both willing and able to guarantee and maintain the salvation He has given us. Jude 24-25, “To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.”

Recommended Resource: Eternal Security by Charles Stanley.
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« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2011, 02:50:24 PM »

No such thing as "Once saved, always saved". A person can loose their relationship with God. The bible makes this clear.  Smiley
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« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2011, 11:43:19 AM »

No such thing as "Once saved, always saved". A person can loose their relationship with God. The bible makes this clear.  Smiley

Will you post some scriptures you are referencing please probound?
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« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2011, 06:39:38 PM »


No such thing as "Once saved, always saved". A person can loose their relationship with God. The bible makes this clear.  Smiley




Will you post some scriptures you are referencing please probound?



Interesting story. The "son of sam" if you will remember, was one of the notorious serial killers NY ever had. Supposedly he had been "saved" just 4 years prior to those killings. When one of the members of his former church had heard of the murders this is what she told the Associated Press: "I’m just thankful he was saved." Why? She claimed: "The Bible says, once saved, always saved." - New York Post, August 25, 1977, p. 2., I believe.

So, does the bible actually say "once saved always saved"? No. However, allot of sincere people do feel like it teaches this notion.


1 Cor. 9:24-27

"(24) Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. (25) Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. (26) Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. (27) No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize."


Note how Paul makes the statement "I myself will not be disqualified". Indicating, he knew that it was possible for him to loose that fight or race that he illustrated.



1 Cor. 10:1-12

"(1) For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. (2) They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. (3) They all ate the same spiritual food (4) and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. (5) Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. (6) Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. (7) Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: 'The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry'. [8] We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. (9) We should not test Christ, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. (10) And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel. (11) These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come. (12) So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!"


In the Christian race, Paul indicates the "one" who receives the prize is anyone who finishes the race. Paul urges, "Run in such a way as to get the prize." "So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall"

So, it can happen to any of us whom "think" we are saved. Again, the bible doesn't teach "once saved always saved". This last one should clinch the notion of  "once saved always saved" as well.

Heb. 10:26-31

"(26) If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, (27) but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (28) Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. (29) How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? (30) For we know him who said, 'It is mine to avenge; I will repay,' and again, 'The Lord will judge his people.' (31) It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."


This is the short of it, but I think you will get the gist.
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« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2011, 11:39:17 AM »

But your Corinthians verses are not referring to salvation.  They are referring to self-discipline, behavior and rewards. 


As for the Hebrews verses, some would say those people were actually not saved to begin with...that they knew the truth/gospel, but did not "accept" it by faith.

But let's say they were saved.  Your verse still does not indicate that it is possible to lose salvation imo.   

Please look back starting at Heb 10:11 and read through to v. 31.  If you concentrate on verses 17 and 18 it points out that there is no point/need for further sacrifice if a person is saved/utterly forgiven. 


17 Then he adds:

   “Their sins and lawless acts
   I will remember no more.”

 18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.


Now, to go to Heb 10:26, it says the same thing.  Even if he person keeps on sinning intentionally, there is no further sacrifice that can save as it has already been done.  But the subsequent verses show that there are consequences for our sin, even if we are saved.


probound, do you believe that

"we are saved by Grace through faith and not of works ....?" (Eph 2:8,9)



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« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2011, 05:07:40 AM »

  One other point: the people who hold the belief that salvation can indeed be lost are never able to say where that "line in the sand" is.
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« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2011, 05:28:15 AM »

If you are givan everlasting life it obviously isn't everlasting if it s taken from you some where down the line. eternal means there is no such thing as it being removed...like saying infinite, but we will stop it some where down the line, then it was never infinite. I apoligize if I am being ignorant but the very thought of losing your eternal salvation is calling God and the Bible a liar.
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« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2011, 07:32:04 PM »

Denouncing Christ seems pretty strong but the way I see it, even if the person denounces Christ, if they ever truly believed, they are still saved.



John 10:28-29
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my hand.  My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them from my Father’s hand.
but it doesn't say the person themselves can't quit. It just says no one else will snatch them away. 
John 5:24
I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.
I would argue that someone who fails to believe anymore, or does continuously bad things likely doesn't believe when he dies he'll see god. he just says the words, just in case..   
Romans 8:38
For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor heavenly rulers,  nor things that are present, nor things to come, nor powers,  nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
except us?
Titus 3:5-7
he saved us not by works of righteousness that we have done but on the basis of his mercy, through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us in full measure through Jesus Christ our Savior.  And so, since we have been justified by his grace, we become heirs with the confident expectation of eternal life.”
Not bad... more to your point. There are passages that indicate once you are saved, god cannot see your sin, he will only see the blood of the lamb and many folks cling to that to support once saved always saved
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Corinthians 1:22
who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a down payment.



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« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2011, 08:25:48 AM »

but it doesn't say the person themselves can't quit. It just says no one else will snatch them away.  

"No one will snatch them from my hand."  That includes everyone including the believer imo."


I would argue that someone who fails to believe anymore, or does continuously bad things likely doesn't believe when he dies he'll see god. he just says the words, just in case..  


Once you believe, you are granted the gift of forgiveness.  This would include past, present and future.  But I agree that some people do not truly believe but present themselves as believers.  

1John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

except us?

we are things present, we are something in creation.



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« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2011, 10:22:53 AM »

but it doesn't say the person themselves can't quit. It just says no one else will snatch them away.  

"No one will snatch them from my hand."  That includes everyone including the believer imo."


I would argue that someone who fails to believe anymore, or does continuously bad things likely doesn't believe when he dies he'll see god. he just says the words, just in case..  


Once you believe, you are granted the gift of forgiveness.  This would include past, present and future.  But I agree that some people do not truly believe but present themselves as believers.  

1John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

except us?

we are things present, we are something in creation.







Then you are saying someone can't choose not to be saved once saved.. where is the free will in that?
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« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2011, 10:30:06 AM »

Then you are saying someone can't choose not to be saved once saved.. where is the free will in that?

They had their chance  Grin


Seriously though, if the bible is true and a believer goes to heaven/paradise/be w/Christ after death and an unbeliever goes to hell/separation from Christ, are you upset that the person (if once a true believer) no longer has the opportunity to go to hell?
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« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2011, 05:48:54 PM »

They had their chance  Grin


Seriously though, if the bible is true and a believer goes to heaven/paradise/be w/Christ after death and an unbeliever goes to hell/separation from Christ, are you upset that the person (if once a true believer) no longer has the opportunity to go to hell?

I'm not upset at all. I think the system would be flawed if good people go to hell and a snake who once believed but no longer does and rips people off gets to go to heaven... I would think you would be upset..
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« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2011, 05:59:23 PM »

I'm not upset at all. I think the system would be flawed if good people go to hell and a snake who once believed but no longer does and rips people off gets to go to heaven... I would think you would be upset..
The Bible makes it clear that God knows the heart
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« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2011, 07:05:24 AM »

I'm not upset at all. I think the system would be flawed if good people go to hell and a snake who once believed but no longer does and rips people off gets to go to heaven... I would think you would be upset..

I didn't mean upset...should have said, wouldn't you be glad that they don't have the opportunity to choose hell at that point.

Why would I be upset?  I would like everyone to go to heaven, although I used to agonize over this I know that God is in control.   People living in these fleshly bodies will not be the same on the other side.  And all doubt will be removed when we see what is there.   I would think when people get to "the other side" they would want to be in heaven.   Suppose it's possible they wouldn't though but doesn't seem probable to me.
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« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2011, 08:15:45 AM »

I didn't mean upset...should have said, wouldn't you be glad that they don't have the opportunity to choose hell at that point.

Why would I be upset?  I would like everyone to go to heaven, although I used to agonize over this I know that God is in control.   People living in these fleshly bodies will not be the same on the other side.  And all doubt will be removed when we see what is there.   I would think when people get to "the other side" they would want to be in heaven.   Suppose it's possible they wouldn't though but doesn't seem probable to me.

But it really isn't about who wants to be in heaven. It's really about who believes their is a heaven. If after I die, I am shown there is a heaven and hell, I'd be a fool to choose hell. The thing is, I don't believe at this moment they are viable options.


Personally, I'd prefer if a heaven like and hell like place existed, that good decent people go to heaven and bad people go to hell. Seems like a logical thing. But for good people to go to heaven for lack of belief in something that is so debatable and has very little to support is outside of faith, seems like a flawed system. An unfair system. Not one any entity with a speck of decency would have created. imho
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« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2011, 07:46:54 AM »

But it really isn't about who wants to be in heaven. It's really about who believes their is a heaven. If after I die, I am shown there is a heaven and hell, I'd be a fool to choose hell. The thing is, I don't believe at this moment they are viable options.


Personally, I'd prefer if a heaven like and hell like place existed, that good decent people go to heaven and bad people go to hell. Seems like a logical thing. But for good people to go to heaven for lack of belief in something that is so debatable and has very little to support is outside of faith, seems like a flawed system. An unfair system. Not one any entity with a speck of decency would have created. imho

You don't really believe in this stuff, do you? Huh
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« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2011, 11:05:18 AM »

You don't really believe in this stuff, do you? Huh

Not personally, but IF it did exist.. the system to get there is flawed.

A baby born to muslims in Egypt doesn't have the same playing field as a baby born to Christians in Kansas.

Good people who just fail to believe in the bible or Jesus go to hell while questionable people who go to church and say they believe do. (I know this is an oversimplification) but its all a game of chance. Some people believe in UFO's, or Bigfoot, or ghosts or psychics or Jesus being the son of god and that's cool but there is no eternal punishment for NOT believing in UFO's or Bigfoot.

 
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« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2011, 11:17:13 AM »

Not personally, but IF it did exist.. the system to get there is flawed.

A baby born to muslims in Egypt doesn't have the same playing field as a baby born to Christians in Kansas.

Good people who just fail to believe in the bible or Jesus go to hell while questionable people who go to church and say they believe do. (I know this is an oversimplification) but its all a game of chance. Some people believe in UFO's, or Bigfoot, or ghosts or psychics or Jesus being the son of god and that's cool but there is no eternal punishment for NOT believing in UFO's or Bigfoot.

 

People who "say they believe" in Jesus go to Heaven?  That is not Christianity.  That is your own created system.  You should start a new religion!    Grin

Christians have to really believe by faith in Jesus Christ, and though it won't make them perfect, it should show in their life.

"there is no eternal punishment for NOT believing in UFO's or Bigfoot." 

And there is no eternal punishment for NOT believing in Jesus either.  Eternal punishment is for unforgiven sinners.   And Jesus, by his own words, is the only way to forgiveness of sins, the only way out of eternal punishment.    Smiley
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« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2011, 11:32:22 AM »

Not personally, but IF it did exist.. the system to get there is flawed.

A baby born to muslims in Egypt doesn't have the same playing field as a baby born to Christians in Kansas.

Good people who just fail to believe in the bible or Jesus go to hell while questionable people who go to church and say they believe do. (I know this is an oversimplification) but its all a game of chance. Some people believe in UFO's, or Bigfoot, or ghosts or psychics or Jesus being the son of god and that's cool but there is no eternal punishment for NOT believing in UFO's or Bigfoot.

 

Of course, just one example of the tortuously and unnecessarily complex 'theology' of Christianity; what of the Amerindians who lived for millenia without Jesus? Then, there is another thread that discusses natural disasters and God's relationship to them. All unnecessarily complex. They first presuppose the existence of some munificient creator deity and then try to figure out how he or it fits in with all the harm in the world, when it would be easier to presuppose nothing and see such things for what they are.
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« Reply #48 on: August 05, 2011, 11:47:33 AM »

Of course, just one example of the tortuously and unnecessarily complex 'theology' of Christianity; what of the Amerindians who lived for millenia without Jesus? Then, there is another thread that discusses natural disasters and God's relationship to them. All unnecessarily complex. They first presuppose the existence of some munificient creator deity and then try to figure out how he or it fits in with all the harm in the world, when it would be easier to presuppose nothing and see such things for what they are.

Just as atheists and other theists do NOT have an answer for everything, Christians do not have an answer for everything either, though some Christians won't admit to this and try to explain everything even when they don't know.
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« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2011, 11:48:33 AM »

Just as atheists and other theists do NOT have an answer for everything, Christians do not have an answer for everything either, though some Christians won't admit to this and try to explain everything even when they don't know.

and this is where they lose credibility..

"I don't know" sounds a lot better than "god works in mysterious ways and the devil has power over the earth and god won't interfere in things unless you pray for help then he might answer yes or no or wait, and ....etc etc." 
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