Author Topic: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?  (Read 3553 times)

Emmortal

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HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« on: January 01, 2008, 02:12:04 PM »
So I've been having a discussion with a friend of mine about HCG (I've read RDW's sticky as well as a ton of other info on it) about when to run HCG.  Personally, logically deducing from the information I've read it's really only good for running at the end of the cycle to help kick start your bodies test production, but he swears that running 250iu EOD throughout the entire cycle is what works best.  That just doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever, but I may be completely missing something.  But if you are pumping in an exogenous source of testosterone what would be the point of injecting something that mimics LH?

I'm planning on running HCG for the first time on my next cycle so just wondering what the school of thought is or if everyone just follows the RDW sticky?  Cheers.

trab

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Re: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2008, 03:01:22 PM »
THere is as much controversy as mens preferance in women.......
Bottom line is its a beneficial product you need figure out for YOUr own Body.

Its also NOT necessary. I never used it for years.
I like it best by itself, in the middle of a very long run.After heavy androgen part, and before less supressive stuff.
 Nolva  w/ it for me, I'd say add A'dex to kill any estrogen is even better.
Not a letro fan.

Big_Tymer

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Re: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2008, 03:28:50 PM »
I prefer it at the end, generally 1000iu/week for 3 weeks, starting when you have 1 week left on your cycle.  Drops the balls nice and fast, then begin nolva.

My personal hypothesis of using it throughout the cycle would be to stop cell-death in the testes and keep them 'alive' by remaining active instead of dormant.  I believe this could help reduce impotency, although I have no poof of it and have never used hcg throughout a cycle, only at the end.

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Re: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2008, 09:00:24 AM »
I only use it at the end of a long cycle.

i'll run 250iu every 3-5 days the last 6 weeks of the cycle and then run a normal PCT.

The only difference i notice when using HCG is my balls swell back up and my loads become much larger, other than that i don't notice anything from it.

8)

Emmortal

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Re: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2008, 12:23:36 AM »
I only use it at the end of a long cycle.

i'll run 250iu every 3-5 days the last 6 weeks of the cycle and then run a normal PCT.

The only difference i notice when using HCG is my balls swell back up and my loads become much larger, other than that i don't notice anything from it.

8)

That's essentially what I've heard from friends who run it, great for getting the balls to swell back up quickly.  I recovery pretty well (thankfully) without ever using it, but wanted to give it a run this go around to see if I like it or not.

Luv2Hurt

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Re: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2008, 04:47:48 AM »
So I've been having a discussion with a friend of mine about HCG (I've read RDW's sticky as well as a ton of other info on it) about when to run HCG.  Personally, logically deducing from the information I've read it's really only good for running at the end of the cycle to help kick start your bodies test production, but he swears that running 250iu EOD throughout the entire cycle is what works best.  That just doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever, but I may be completely missing something.  But if you are pumping in an exogenous source of testosterone what would be the point of injecting something that mimics LH?
I'm planning on running HCG for the first time on my next cycle so just wondering what the school of thought is or if everyone just follows the RDW sticky?  Cheers.

Well LH needs to come before natural test is made.  Exogenous test opens the Negative feedback loop.  Exogenous LH fools your testes into thinking its closed (closed means like a circuit)  You are thinking of the body while on juice as opposed to when it is trying to recover natural test production, they are 2 completely different animals and different goals are trying to be achieved.  The whole purpose of taking HCG during cycle is to set you up for a faster recovery at the end, thats it.
The main benefit is this will help prevent atrophy of the testes while on a cycle.  Therefore when it is time to recover the testes will be larger and stronger to respond and not have to spend time building back up physical size before they can start working well.

Thats the idea, does it work well?  I have done it both ways, HCG on cycle, it seems to help some IME.

trab

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Re: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2008, 05:14:05 AM »
Im starting to thinK that ANY small amt of exogneous testo prevents the start of recovery.

Check that Bulk muscle PCT link and see how long it takes for TE to degrade completely to ZERO.

Long Long time.

Thats why switching to fast clearing stuff like a base of Tp & a bit of mild stuff like var,primo,stanoz
 for a month or 2 last is so much easier to bounce back from  (for me at least)

Consider this. Possible doing the above Tp & Stan a month at end,; Then HCG at 300-500iu eod - every 3rd Day
for 1 1/2 to 2 months. 20mg of Nolva and A'dex with it to block and stop Estrogen from the HCG.
Finally some clomid.

If you go and create a bunch of estrogen w/ the HCG (and it sure seem like it does for me)
you just took a step back. Sure your nuts swelled up, but that estrogen is going to stay a spell.

If your allways right back on w/ even a small amt of TE lingering, and simply used artificial means to blow up the nuts,,,,, Dont kid yourselfs, Your system is way out of whack. 

4thAD

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Re: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2008, 10:26:52 AM »
This is one area I disagree with most on this board. Studies prove that shut down begins at first administration of test. For me, I run HCG from day one of cycle to 4 days prior to PCT. I run it @ 500iu 2xew. The only thing Im changing from here on out is the last two doses of HCG will be @ 1500iu each. Followed by a PCT of 20mg nolva(clomid if preferred) for four weeks, six weeks of aromasin @ 25mg ed, and vitamin e. I recover flawlessly, better than any other way Ive run HCG. Kept close to 100% of on cycle gains with the exception of water weight loss. My last cycle I think I lost 6lbs in total, and didn't really even feel like I came off. Strength,motivation, and weight all up up up.

To me it doesn't make any sense to let your body shut down, and testicles atrophy, just to try and recover at cycles end. Why not remain full and in working order through cycle. Just my 2cc's. On that note there are vets on this board who I respect that do not agree with this method of HCG administration. One who does agree with this method is the good Doctor FreakfestMD. He also says you need to find what works for you, I just wish more people would try this method. You might be pleasantly surprised. Sorry for the rant.

OK I'll shut up now....

Emmortal

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Re: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2008, 12:01:27 PM »
Definitely not a rant, some great information on your experiences.  That was really the intent of starting this thread because I've seen and have heard a lot of differing opinions on HCG administration.  I wanted this to be sort of an open discussion to see how people use HCG and what works for them.

busyB

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Re: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2008, 01:01:00 PM »
This is one area I disagree with most on this board. Studies prove that shut down begins at first administration of test. For me, I run HCG from day one of cycle to 4 days prior to PCT. I run it @ 500iu 2xew. The only thing Im changing from here on out is the last two doses of HCG will be @ 1500iu each. Followed by a PCT of 20mg nolva(clomid if preferred) for four weeks, six weeks of aromasin @ 25mg ed, and vitamin e. I recover flawlessly, better than any other way Ive run HCG. Kept close to 100% of on cycle gains with the exception of water weight loss. My last cycle I think I lost 6lbs in total, and didn't really even feel like I came off. Strength,motivation, and weight all up up up.

To me it doesn't make any sense to let your body shut down, and testicles atrophy, just to try and recover at cycles end. Why not remain full and in working order through cycle. Just my 2cc's. On that note there are vets on this board who I respect that do not agree with this method of HCG administration. One who does agree with this method is the good Doctor FreakfestMD. He also says you need to find what works for you, I just wish more people would try this method. You might be pleasantly surprised. Sorry for the rant.

OK I'll shut up now....


Was waiting for this from 'ya 4th....kinda shorter than I expected  ;)


4thAD

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Re: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2008, 03:38:25 AM »
Was waiting for this from 'ya 4th....kinda shorter than I expected  ;)



Yeah I almost didn't even bring it up, but IMO its the only way to use HCG!

freakfestMD

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Re: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2008, 04:32:45 AM »
One who does agree with this method is the good Doctor FreakfestMD. He also says you need to find what


Nice post 4thAD.

As I have reviewed on here before, high levels of intratesticular testosterone, secreted by the leydig cells, are necessary for spermatogenesis. The exogenous administration of testosterone and its metabolite estrogen will suppress both GnRH production by the hypothalamus and LH production by the pituitary gland and subsequently suppress intratesticular testosterone production. High levels of testosterone are needed inside the testis and this can never be accomplished by oral or parenteral administration of androgens.

Through its effects on the HPTA, AAS-induced suppression of testosterone production by the leydig cells will result in a deficient spermatogenesis, and lead to an irreversible death of testicular cells.

The choice is, as always, yours to make.  You can protect your gonads throughout the cycle, or try to salvage what's left at the end.  The choice seems obvious to me.

There has been a lot of talk on here about how people dont "feel" any different when they take hcg during the cycle, and so they have switched back to the "salvage" mode of taking it all at the end.  This is flawed logic.  It doesn't have anything to do with how you "feel" during the cycle. You don't "feel" leydig cell apoptosis (death), it just happens.  When all of you young studs will "feel" it will be later, in your 40s and 50s, when your testosterone-producing machine (the testis) just aren't putting it out anymore.  I'm in my 40's, and I couldn't give a sh*t about sperm production but you better believe I will protect every last leydig cell to the end!



Emmortal

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Re: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2008, 11:09:08 AM »
Great information Freak, exactly what I was looking for.

4thAD

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Re: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2008, 02:08:47 PM »
Nice post 4thAD.

As I have reviewed on here before, high levels of intratesticular testosterone, secreted by the leydig cells, are necessary for spermatogenesis. The exogenous administration of testosterone and its metabolite estrogen will suppress both GnRH production by the hypothalamus and LH production by the pituitary gland and subsequently suppress intratesticular testosterone production. High levels of testosterone are needed inside the testis and this can never be accomplished by oral or parenteral administration of androgens.

Through its effects on the HPTA, AAS-induced suppression of testosterone production by the leydig cells will result in a deficient spermatogenesis, and lead to an irreversible death of testicular cells.

The choice is, as always, yours to make.  You can protect your gonads throughout the cycle, or try to salvage what's left at the end.  The choice seems obvious to me.

There has been a lot of talk on here about how people dont "feel" any different when they take hcg during the cycle, and so they have switched back to the "salvage" mode of taking it all at the end.  This is flawed logic.  It doesn't have anything to do with how you "feel" during the cycle. You don't "feel" leydig cell apoptosis (death), it just happens.  When all of you young studs will "feel" it will be later, in your 40s and 50s, when your testosterone-producing machine (the testis) just aren't putting it out anymore.  I'm in my 40's, and I couldn't give a sh*t about sperm production but you better believe I will protect every last leydig cell to the end!




Thanx for the bump DOC! Im not worried about sperm count either as I already have my children. I want to be full "Save the leydig", and recover completely and as fast as possible. Recovery is much faster when HCG and PCT are used in this fashon.

busyB

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Re: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2008, 06:44:52 AM »
Thanx for the bump DOC! Im not worried about sperm count either as I already have my children. I want to be full "Save the leydig", and recover completely and as fast as possible. Recovery is much faster when HCG and PCT are used in this fashon.

Ok, since you two brought up the kids deal....what if someone was on cycle but wanted to get their wife pregnant? Could you still run Hcg and have a high enough sperm count to make it happen? Considering the cycle was only HRT dose of test, not a lot of compounds. I had this discussion with someone once and would like to hear what you all think??!?!?

freakfestMD

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Re: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2008, 10:04:26 AM »
Ok, since you two brought up the kids deal....what if someone was on cycle but wanted to get their wife pregnant? Could you still run Hcg and have a high enough sperm count to make it happen? Considering the cycle was only HRT dose of test, not a lot of compounds. I had this discussion with someone once and would like to hear what you all think??!?!?

You could still father a child (it only takes one of those little buggers!).  However, your sperm count will be low. 

I had mine checked on a cycle once when I was in my 20's (with no knowledge of hcg, PCT or anti-estrogens some twenty years ago), and it was zero.

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Re: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2008, 01:45:56 PM »
freakfest - nice post about hcg throughout a cycle, i may just try that out next time im on.  what is your recommended dose / frequency?

4thAD

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Re: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2008, 12:41:55 PM »
500iu 2x ew from first injection to 4 days prior to PCT. Last two injects @1500iu.

Emmortal

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Re: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2008, 01:41:52 PM »
4thad: do you go by length of total cycle or is that just a standard dosing you use no matter the length of your cycle? i.e. different dosing for shorter (8 week) cycles vs. dosing for longer (16+ weeks)

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Re: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2008, 07:15:18 PM »
No matter how long the cycle is. 500 2x e3d, or 2x ew your preference. If you go the e3d route the 5000iu hcg will still be good before exp. date.

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Re: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2008, 09:31:09 AM »
Freak,

i've been searching unsuccessfully to find a study i read about a year ago that stated HCG begins to lose it's effect after 6-8 weeks. i'm positive i read this but i haven't been able to find the actual link.

have you ever heard such a thing?

Thanks.

8)

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Re: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2008, 09:41:20 AM »
Freak,

i've been searching unsuccessfully to find a study i read about a year ago that stated HCG begins to lose it's effect after 6-8 weeks. i'm positive i read this but i haven't been able to find the actual link.

have you ever heard such a thing?

Thanks.

8)

bump for this.  I too have read that too much HCG use will desensitize your LH's response to it, which would be my concern of using it throughout the duration of a cycle.

4thAD

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Re: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2008, 10:36:04 AM »
You might see some desensitization if you were running high dose HCG for an extended amount of time. I have personally run this HCG protocol and it works with no desensitization. Ive run it as long as 20 weeks. HCG @ 500iu 2xew is a light dose and studies prove this.

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Re: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2008, 11:41:18 AM »
You might see some desensitization if you were running high dose HCG for an extended amount of time. I have personally run this HCG protocol and it works with no desensitization. Ive run it as long as 20 weeks. HCG @ 500iu 2xew is a light dose and studies prove this.

Would you mind posting these studies?

the study i read was 250iu E5D and was ran for 24 weeks with 600mg Test C.

8)

4thAD

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Re: HCG throughout cycle or at the end?
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2008, 01:07:52 PM »
I'll look them up there on pubmed.