Author Topic: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?  (Read 43649 times)

loco

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #150 on: December 03, 2008, 12:00:36 PM »
Discovery Channel's "UNWRAPPING THE SHROUD: NEW EVIDENCE" Re-Opens One Of Christianity's Greatest Mysteries, December 14 At 10PM ET/PT

Nov 28, 2008


The Shroud of Turin is one of the great enduring mysteries of all time, with its authenticity debated for years. Many believe it's the burial cloth of Jesus and the only physical link to Him, while others maintain that it is nothing more than an elaborate hoax. In fact, in 1988, a team of scientists radiocarbon dated the Shroud and concluded it was fake, dating back to the Middle Ages (1290-1360), long after Jesus was crucified. And that's where the story stood, unchallenged -- until now.

Discovery Channel's one-hour original special UNWRAPPING THE SHROUD: NEW EVIDENCE attempts to unravel the truth about the cloth on Sunday, December 14, 2008 from 10-11PM ET/PT.

The special event features the story of Ray Rogers, a respected chemist from the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico and member of the original team of scientists who examined the Shroud. Rogers came across a paper written by a husband and wife from Columbus, Ohio that claimed the 1988 radiocarbon dating was inaccurate. According to the couple, the test sample that was used had been taken from a section of the Shroud that had been repaired in the 16th Century, skewing the results. Expecting to prove this couple wrong, Rogers went back to examine the sample of the Shroud he tested years earlier, and what he found astonished even himself. In his last days (he had been battling cancer), Rogers made a video -- which before now has never been seen -- detailing his conclusions.

Shot entirely in high-definition, UNWRAPPING THE SHROUD: NEW EVIDENCE examines Rogers' findings and how they may unlock a mystery thousands of years in the making.

UNWRAPPING THE SHROUD: NEW EVIDENCE is filled with twists and turns, science and faith, and iron-clad evidence that may turn out to be less than meets the eye. The special is produced for Discovery Channel by Darlow Smithson Productions. Brooke Runnette serves as Executive Producer from Discovery Channel.

http://realitytvwebsite.com/RealityTVNews/Discovery-Channel-s-UNWRAPPING-THE-SHROUD-NEW-EVIDENCE-Re-Opens-One-Of-Christianity-s-Greatest-Mysteries-December-14-At-10PM-ET-PT.html

loco

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #151 on: October 05, 2009, 12:21:34 PM »
Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

Mon Oct 5, 2009

ROME (Reuters) – An Italian scientist says he has reproduced the Shroud of Turin, a feat that he says proves definitively that the linen some Christians revere as Jesus Christ's burial cloth is a medieval fake.

The shroud, measuring 14 feet, 4 inches by 3 feet, 7 inches bears the image, eerily reversed like a photographic negative, of a crucified man some believers say is Christ.

"We have shown that is possible to reproduce something which has the same characteristics as the Shroud," Luigi Garlaschelli, who is due to illustrate the results at a conference on the para-normal this weekend in northern Italy, said on Monday.

A professor of organic chemistry at the University of Pavia, Garlaschelli made available to Reuters the paper he will deliver and the accompanying comparative photographs.

The Shroud of Turin shows the back and front of a bearded man with long hair, his arms crossed on his chest, while the entire cloth is marked by what appears to be rivulets of blood from wounds in the wrists, feet and side.

Carbon dating tests by laboratories in Oxford, Zurich and Tucson, Arizona in 1988 caused a sensation by dating it from between 1260 and 1390. Sceptics said it was a hoax, possibly made to attract the profitable medieval pilgrimage business.

But scientists have thus far been at a loss to explain how the image was left on the cloth.

Garlaschelli reproduced the full-sized shroud using materials and techniques that were available in the middle ages.

They placed a linen sheet flat over a volunteer and then rubbed it with a pigment containing traces of acid. A mask was used for the face.

PIGMENT, BLOODSTAINS AND SCORCHES

The pigment was then artificially aged by heating the cloth in an oven and washing it, a process which removed it from the surface but left a fuzzy, half-tone image similar to that on the Shroud. He believes the pigment on the original Shroud faded naturally over the centuries.

They then added blood stains, burn holes, scorches and water stains to achieve the final effect.

The Catholic Church does not claim the Shroud is authentic nor that it is a matter of faith, but says it should be a powerful reminder of Christ's passion.

One of Christianity's most disputed relics, it is locked away at Turin Cathedral in Italy and rarely exhibited. It was last on display in 2000 and is due to be shown again next year.

Garlaschelli expects people to contest his findings.

"If they don't want to believe carbon dating done by some of the world's best laboratories they certainly won't believe me," he said.

The accuracy of the 1988 tests was challenged by some hard-core believers who said restorations of the Shroud in past centuries had contaminated the results.

The history of the Shroud is long and controversial.

After surfacing in the Middle East and France, it was brought by Italy's former royal family, the Savoys, to their seat in Turin in 1578. In 1983 ex-King Umberto II bequeathed it to the late Pope John Paul.

The Shroud narrowly escaped destruction in 1997 when a fire ravaged the Guarini Chapel of the Turin cathedral where it is held. The cloth was saved by a fireman who risked his life.

Garlaschelli received funding for his work by an Italian association of atheists and agnostics but said it had no effect on his results.

"Money has no odor," he said. "This was done scientifically. If the Church wants to fund me in the future, here I am."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091005/sc_nm/us_italy_shroud

Dr Loomis

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #152 on: October 06, 2009, 09:18:34 AM »
Its strange nobody figured out how to reproduce it for the past 800 years till this guy.

tu_holmes

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #153 on: October 06, 2009, 09:28:15 AM »
Most active adults don't give a crap enough to try really.

The Luke

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #154 on: October 06, 2009, 09:39:43 AM »
Its strange nobody figured out how to reproduce it for the past 800 years till this guy.

Da Vinci figured it out... he's the one who manufactured the Turin Shroud for the Lirey family.


The Luke
(PS ...Arab scientists first discovered image production via silver nitrate fixed with urea)

loco

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #155 on: October 06, 2009, 09:57:22 AM »
Most active adults don't give a crap enough to try really.

Actually, many have tried and failed.  

And if "Most active adults don't give a crap enough to try really" then why did an Italian association of atheists and agnostics pay this scientist to try?

loco

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #156 on: October 06, 2009, 09:58:55 AM »
Da Vinci figured it out... he's the one who manufactured the Turin Shroud for the Lirey family.


The Luke
(PS ...Arab scientists first discovered image production via silver nitrate fixed with urea)

False!  You and I have been over this.  I'm still waiting for your evidence, which you claimed to have but failed to provide.

loco

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #157 on: October 06, 2009, 10:24:13 AM »
Traces of Aramaic on Shroud of Turin

July 29, 2009

A recent study by French scientist Thierry Castex has revealed that on the shroud are traces of words in Aramaic spelled with Hebrew letters.

A Vatican researcher, Barbara Frale, told Vatican Radio on July 26 that her own studies suggest the letters on the shroud were written more than 1,800 years ago.

She said that in 1978 a Latin professor in Milan noticed Aramaic writing on the shroud and in 1989 scholars discovered Hebrew characters that probably were portions of the phrase "The king of the Jews."

Castex's recent discovery of the word "found" with another word next to it, which still has to be deciphered, "together may mean 'because found' or 'we found'," she said.

What is interesting, she said, is that it recalls a passage in the Gospel of St Luke, "We found this man misleading our people," which was what several Jewish leaders told Pontius Pilate when they asked him to condemn Jesus.

She said it would not be unusual for something to be written on a burial cloth in order to indicate the identity of the deceased.

http://www.cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=15419

The Luke

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #158 on: October 06, 2009, 10:47:11 AM »
False!  You and I have been over this.  I'm still waiting for your evidence, which you claimed to have but failed to provide.

...the ONLY test the Vatican will not allow on the Shroud of Turin is a silver assay. Is that proof enough that the Shroud is a silver nitrate photograph?

Let me give you some background...

The Lirey family first showed off the Shroud when the Lord of Lirey returned from the Crusades. The local bishop declared the Shroud an "obvious forgery" and claimed the artist commissioned to fake it was well known and had confessed, he boiled the Shroud twice in water and twice in oil effectively destroying the image.. then denied the Lirey family the right to declare the Shroud an official relic.

The Lirey family disagreed, and so chose to lock the Shroud away for seventy years (just long enough for everyone who saw it to die off).

Towards the very end of these seventy years the Lirey family hired a young artist to work for them... an artist named Leonardo, from the backwater town of Vinci.

Da Vinci worked away in secret, never producing enough commissioned works or family portraits to in any way justify the comfort and wealth his arrangement with his new patrons afforded him.

After a few years, the Lirey family decided to dust off their "obvious forgery" Shroud... but suddenly, low and behold, the Shroud is a wonder... it silences all critics: now neither boiling in oil nor water has any effect on the wondrous 3-D image... the Vatican declares the Shroud a relic, and the Lirey family become incredibly rich and influential via the pilgrimage trade.

Da Vinci, an atheist, spends the rest of his life thumbing his nose to the Vatican: adding heretical pagan/gnostic symbolism to his paintings; skipping out on Church commissions; performing autopsies and anatomical research in defiance of Church edict; harbouring his Cathar/Old-Believer mother for years; even openly practicing his unabashed homosexual lifestyle etc etc. ALL without rebuke or retaliation from the Church (whereas Michelangelo was tried for homosexuality with the threat of life with hard labour).  

However, in his old age, Da Vinci went back to live with the Lirey family... they took him in and treated him well, even though he did no further work for them, a very cosy arrangement. Da Vinci even died in the arms of the Lord of Lirey.


After his death, all of Da Vinci's codices (workbooks) were left to his delinquent apprentice (boyfriend?).


The apprentice promptly auctioned them off to the highest bidder... the Lirey family paid way over the odds to buy ONE (and only one) of these codices: the codex covering the years when Da Vinci first came to work for them... the years just before the Shroud's miraculous rebirth.

This codex has NEVER been recovered.



So stop the silly debunking... there is more than enough information in this post alone to allow anyone interested to do all the research needed to confirm Da Vinci made the Shroud of Turin.

Skimming over single paragraph encyclopedia entries and culling dishonest articles from Christian apologist websites does NOT constitute proper research... NOR does it entitle uninformed ideologues to Hector those (like me) who have properly researched the subject.


The Luke

loco

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #159 on: October 06, 2009, 10:53:11 AM »
Turin Shroud 'could be genuine as carbon-dating was flawed'

10 Apr 2009

Radio carbon dating carried out in 1988 was performed on an area of the relic that was repaired in the 16th century, according to Ray Rogers, who helped lead the Shroud of Turin Research Project (STRP).

At the time he argued firmly that the shroud, which bears a Christlike image, was a clever forgery.

But in a video made shortly before his death three years ago, he said facts had come to light that indicated the shroud could be genuine.

Rogers, a chemist from the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, said: "I don't believe in miracles that defy the laws of nature. After the 1988 investigation I'd given up on the shroud.

"But now I am coming to the conclusion that it has a very good chance of being the piece of cloth that was used to bury the historic Jesus."

He came to his conclusion after re-examining a theory from two amateur scientists that he had earlier dismissed as being from "the lunatic fringe".

Sue Benford and Joe Marina, from Ohio, suspected the 1988 sample was from a damaged section of the linen shroud repaired in the 16th century after being damaged in a fire.

Rogers said: "I was irritated and determined to prove Sue and Joe wrong."

However, when he came to examine threads taken in 1978 - luckily from the same section as the 1988 sample - he found cotton in them.

He said: "The cotton fibres were fairly heavily coated with dye, suggesting they were changed to match the linen during a repair.

"I concluded that area of the shroud was manipulated by someone with great skill.

"Sue and Joe were right. The worst possible sample for carbon dating was taken.

"It consisted of different materials than were used in the shroud itself, so the age we produced was inaccurate."

In the video, made shortly before he died of cancer in March 2005, he said: "I came very close to proving the shroud was used to bury the historic Jesus."

This latest evidence, to be broadcast in The Turin Shroud: New Evidence at 8pm on Sunday on the Discovery Channel, is the latest chapter in the shroud's history.

For the last 21 years most have considered it to be a medieval fake, after the 1988 tests dated it as being made between 1260 and 1390.

The result overturned 10 years of hope among Christians that it was real, after the first scientific tests found evidence of blood and serum stains.

The earliest documented sighting of the shroud is from 1353, but last week a historian claimed in the Vatican's newspaper that she had found a "missing link" in the Holy See's Secret Archives proving the Knights Templar had safeguarded it during the 13th century.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/5137163/Turin-Shroud-could-be-genuine-as-carbon-dating-was-flawed.html

The Luke

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #160 on: October 06, 2009, 11:30:27 AM »
Loco,


What you are posting is Vatican propaganda... the Vatican knows right well that the Shroud is a Da Vinci fake, they've known it was such since the 14th century.

Ever since the public radio-carbon dating they have made a concerted effort to highlight every bullshit fanciful theory put forward by any Christian-minded "scientist" or researcher. Some of these professors and PhDs putting forward these pseudo-scientific theories are actually nothing more than professors and doctors of theology.

The policy has evolved over the decades...
-the radio-carbon dating isn't 100% accurate (bullshit)
-the resurrection of Jesus may have de-aged the carbon in the Shroud somehow (bullshit)
-the parts of the Shroud tested were Medieval re-weaves (not true and addressed in the original report)
-bacterial accumulation in the tested sections could have skewed the carbon dating (bullshit)

...it's all bullshit.
None of these supposedly scientific speculations are ever peer-reviewed or published in scientific journals, because they don't stand up to scrutiny.


The goal is not to PROVE the Shroud genuine, and never has been. The goal is to flood the debate with enough misinformation to allow Christians the luxury of deluding themselves into believing there is some sort of dissent in scientific circles regarding the Shroud: there isn't.


The simple fact remains, the Vatican has never and will never allow a simple non-intrusive silver assay of the Shroud... that is the ONLY test they will not allow.

Why?

Because the Vatican has done these tests in private and knows right well what the Shroud is: a urea-fixed silver nitrate proto-photograph... and who made it: Da Vinci.

(Read my previous post for more info)


The Luke

loco

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #161 on: October 06, 2009, 11:42:40 AM »
The Catholic Church does not claim the Shroud is authentic nor that it is a matter of faith.

The Luke

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #162 on: October 06, 2009, 11:50:31 AM »
The Catholic Church does not claim the Shroud is authentic nor that it is a matter of faith.


...not any more.

They were happy to take pilgrims money for 600+ years.



The Luke

loco

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #163 on: October 06, 2009, 11:53:01 AM »
The people most interested in the mystery of the shroud are not even religious, many of them scientists.  Barrie M. Schwortz, for example, is one of the biggest proponents that the Shroud is everything but a fake, and he is Jewish.  As you know, Jews don't believe in Jesus.

The Luke

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #164 on: October 06, 2009, 11:56:00 AM »
The people most interested in the mystery of the shroud are not even religious, many of them scientists.  Barrie M. Schwortz, for example, is one of the biggest proponents that the Shroud is everything but a fake, and he is Jewish.  As you know, Jews don't believe in Jesus.

...he's religious isn't he? Another fool willingly deluding himself with magical thinking.

Any rational atheists dismissing the weight of scientific evidence to indulge in this fanciful nonsense?



The Luke

loco

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #165 on: October 06, 2009, 12:00:08 PM »
...he's religious isn't he? Another fool willingly deluding himself with magical thinking.

Any rational atheists dismissing the weight of scientific evidence to indulge in this fanciful nonsense?



The Luke

I don't know if he is religious,  probably not.   But he did say that he is no Christian.

The Luke

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #166 on: October 06, 2009, 12:58:54 PM »
I don't know if he is religious,  probably not.   But he did say that he is no Christian.


...but he's a theist. He's infected with a belief in magical thinking.


The Luke

loco

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #167 on: October 06, 2009, 01:08:37 PM »

...but he's a theist. He's infected with a belief in magical thinking.


The Luke

So are most of the best scientists in our entire history.  What's your point?

I don't know that Barrie M. Schwortz is even a theist.  He's a Jew by ethnicity, not necessarily by faith.

The Luke

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #168 on: October 06, 2009, 01:24:54 PM »
I don't know that Barrie M. Schwortz is even a theist.  He's a Jew by ethnicity, not necessarily by faith.

...I wouldn't bet on it.

Why else would he be arguing the Shroud is anything other than what it is?: a silver-nitrate proto-photograph most probably attributable to Da Vinci.


The Luke

loco

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #169 on: October 06, 2009, 01:25:56 PM »
...I wouldn't bet on it.

Why else would he be arguing the Shroud is anything other than what it is?: a silver-nitrate proto-photograph most probably attributable to Da Vinci.


The Luke

Aren't you the same guy who says the US has never won any wars?

The Luke

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #170 on: October 06, 2009, 01:44:34 PM »
Aren't you the same guy who says the US has never won any wars?

...well, I said "never really won a war" in reference to the futility of military conflict which never really achieves its stated objectives. (I gave examples, but once I showed I was willing to defend my position the maelstrom of furor kinda died down).

Only the Palin-voters took exception to that statement; poor reading comprehension.


But none of that has any relevance here... unless you are looking for a flimsy excuse to dismiss what I'm saying regarding the Shroud.

Religious sensibilities triggering a defensive dismissal reaction maybe?


The Luke

loco

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #171 on: October 06, 2009, 01:50:50 PM »
...well, I said "never really won a war" in reference to the futility of military conflict which never really achieves its stated objectives. (I gave examples, but once I showed I was willing to defend my position the maelstrom of furor kinda died down).

Only the Palin-voters took exception to that statement; poor reading comprehension.


But none of that has any relevance here... unless you are looking for a flimsy excuse to dismiss what I'm saying regarding the Shroud.

Religious sensibilities triggering a defensive dismissal reaction maybe?


The Luke

What has no relevance here is whether or not Barrie M. Schwortz is theist.  He is only an example of many non-religious Shroud of Turin proponents. Contrary to your claims,  neither the Catholic Church nor protestants claim that this is the shroud that covered Jesus' dead body.  And contrary to your claims, it has yet to be proven a fake.

The fact is that the Shroud of Turin is still a mystery and of very much interest to modern scientists, historians, archeologists, textile experts, artists, etc.

The Luke

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #172 on: October 06, 2009, 02:23:43 PM »
What has no relevance here is whether or not Barrie M. Schwortz is theist.  He is only an example of many non-religious Shroud of Turin proponents.

...now you know he's non-religious? How are you getting this information? Are you using the Force?


Contrary to your claims,  neither the Catholic Church nor protestants claim that this is the shroud that covered Jesus' dead body.  And contrary to your claims, it has yet to be proven a fake.

Point 1:
...did the Vatican collect tithes/donations from pilgrims visiting the Shroud for 600+ years or didn't they? Has the Vatican ever denied that the Shroud is the cloth that covered Jesus' body? This is a specious point of semantic argument, the upper-echelons of the Vatican hierarchy knew the Shroud was a fake ever since it first appeared. It is the supposed burial shroud of an imaginary person, the Vatican knows Jesus never existed... always have known.

The Shroud is a fake; Jesus is a hoax; religion is a scam. Accept it.

Point 2:
...it HAS been proven to be a fake. It's even been replicated exactly using only Medieval equipment. The front image and rear image have a 6% size discrepancy which immediately tell us not only that the image is a projected one (unless Jesus was 6% bigger from the front that he was from the back, by magic), but also the focal length of the lens used. Also, the face is double exposed for detail... it's probably Da Vinci's own face.

For fuck's sake... I could make one of these shrouds myself for about a thousand dollars.

However, I take your point... the actual Shroud of Turin itself has not been CONCLUSIVELY proven to be a fake... and it won't be, because the Vatican will not allow ANYONE to ever test the Shroud for silver.

But similarly, I have a copy of Van Gogh's "Sunflowers" in my living room and no one can prove it isn't a real $20m Van Gogh if I continuously refuse to allow anyone ever test it.

Get the logic?


The fact is that the Shroud of Turin is still a mystery and of very much interest to modern scientists, historians, archeologists, textile experts, artists, etc.

...it's only a mystery to those who cannot come to terms with it being a silver nitrate proto-photograph because of delusional religious sensibilities.


The fact remains that the Vatican will allow pretty much any inconclusive test to be done on the Shroud, but outright refuses to ever have the Shroud tested for silver or other heavy metals.

None of the Shroud-believers ever address the silver issue? Why is that?

If you WANT to believe... then believe... but don't try to pass off delusion for reality. Reality is independent of human neurological idiosyncrasies.



The Luke

loco

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #173 on: October 06, 2009, 02:50:06 PM »
Yeah, sure Luke, it has been proven to be a fake and it has been replicated. That is why an Italian association of atheists and agnostics just paid a scientist to try to replicate it.    ::)

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Re: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?
« Reply #174 on: October 06, 2009, 07:22:54 PM »
Yeah, sure Luke, it has been proven to be a fake and it has been replicated. That is why an Italian association of atheists and agnostics just paid a scientist to try to replicate it.    ::)

...there are documentaries online in which you can watch a Shroud of Turin being replicated. It's not that difficult, teenage kids have done it for science fair projects.

I could do it myself (full real life scale) for about a thousand bucks.

You can do it small-scale with a Star Wars figurine for about fifty bucks worth of chemicals.

Picknett and Prince have even written a book explaining the method in detail and citing reams upon reams of historical evidence building the very strong (albeit circumstantial) case for Leonardo being the perpetrator of the hoax.

I guess this "association of agnostics and atheists" (most probably a front for religiously-minded delusionists eager to report the Shroud "Unfakable!" with the borrowed mantle of scientific authority)... I guess they just couldn't be bothered to do even a cursory Google search.


Is this how you guys become religious in the first place?

You just never grew out of the childhood gullibility inherent in humans?

Do you believe all those Big-Tobacco "scientists" who still can't find a link between smoking a cancer despite fifty years of continuous well-funded studies? What about Scientology? That's a "science-based" religion which claims to have lots of scientific evidence to back it up?


Ahh... why do I bother... Loco, you'll just read the first sentence of this post, scan the rest and spew some more ignornant dismissive emotional reactions. You don't comprehend, you can't understand and you like it that way.


The Luke