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Author Topic: Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?  (Read 23442 times)
The Luke
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« Reply #200 on: October 15, 2009, 07:22:42 PM »

Well, that still doesn't mean Jesus couldn't have looked like him, eh?

Five foot ten from the front and five foot eight from the back? Sounds like an image projected onto a cloth with two different objective distances to me.

The average height in Jesus' time was abot 4'6''... I don't remember him being referred to as "Jesus the Giant".


The Luke
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chaos
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« Reply #201 on: October 15, 2009, 07:27:28 PM »

Five foot ten from the front and five foot eight from the back? Sounds like an image projected onto a cloth with two different objective distances to me.

The average height in Jesus' time was abot 4'6''... I don't remember him being referred to as "Jesus the Giant".


The Luke
You don't believe in Jesus, but you live in your parents basement so you can chase bigfoot.........your credibility is outstanding.
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The Luke
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« Reply #202 on: October 16, 2009, 05:39:56 PM »

You don't believe in Jesus, but you live in your parents basement so you can chase bigfoot.........your credibility is outstanding.

Would I have credibility if I believed in Jeebus? Or a magic bedsheet?


The Luke
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chaos
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« Reply #203 on: October 16, 2009, 05:53:26 PM »

Would I have credibility if I believed in Jeebus? Or a magic bedsheet?


The Luke
You'd have just as much proof as you do about bigfoot.
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The Luke
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« Reply #204 on: October 16, 2009, 05:54:56 PM »

You'd have just as much proof as you do about bigfoot.

I think you are forgetting which side of this argument you are on.



The Luke
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chaos
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« Reply #205 on: October 16, 2009, 06:22:03 PM »

I think you are forgetting which side of this argument you are on.



The Luke
I'm on no "side", I'm pointing out a fact.  You believe that bigfoot exists without any solid proof, no body, bones, etc. But you come to the religious board and mock the people who believe in Jesus.

Hypocrit much?
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The Luke
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« Reply #206 on: October 16, 2009, 06:47:17 PM »

I'm on no "side", I'm pointing out a fact.  You believe that bigfoot exists without any solid proof, no body, bones, etc. But you come to the religious board and mock the people who believe in Jesus.

Hypocrit much?

...there's actual scientific evidence for the existence of clandestine hominids.

There are bones, it's a common misconception that no such fossils exist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigantopithecus

David Attenborough has openly admitted he believes such animals exist. Jane Goodall, pioneering chimp researcher, openly professed her belief in the existence of at least a half dozen extant hominid species during a radio interview.

The only academics actively researching the Bigfoot/Sasquatch/Yeren have made very strong cases for the existence of such animals. Dr Jeff Meldrum has even written an excellent book making the scientific case for "Bigfoot".


The main reason the scientific community hasn't yet made a case for the existence of Sasquatch is because a majority of Americans still believe in the Noah's Ark version of history.

End of thread hijack.


The Luke
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chaos
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« Reply #207 on: October 16, 2009, 07:10:25 PM »

...there's actual scientific evidence for the existence of clandestine hominids.

There are bones, it's a common misconception that no such fossils exist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigantopithecus

David Attenborough has openly admitted he believes such animals exist. Jane Goodall, pioneering chimp researcher, openly professed her belief in the existence of at least a half dozen extant hominid species during a radio interview.

The only academics actively researching the Bigfoot/Sasquatch/Yeren have made very strong cases for the existence of such animals. Dr Jeff Meldrum has even written an excellent book making the scientific case for "Bigfoot".


The main reason the scientific community hasn't yet made a case for the existence of Sasquatch is because a majority of Americans still believe in the Noah's Ark version of history.

End of thread hijack.


The Luke
Millions upon millions of people believe in Jesus and the bible, what's your point?

Now I just scanned your wiki article, but do you read what you post?

[edit] Classification
In the past, it had been thought that G. blacki was an ancestor of humans, on the basis of molar evidence; this is now regarded a result of convergent evolution. G. blacki is now placed in the subfamily Ponginae along with the orangutan.

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The Luke
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« Reply #208 on: October 16, 2009, 07:12:14 PM »

Millions upon millions of people believe in Jesus and the bible, what's your point?

Now I just scanned your wiki article, but do you read what you post?

[edit] Classification
In the past, it had been thought that G. blacki was an ancestor of humans, on the basis of molar evidence; this is now regarded a result of convergent evolution. G. blacki is now placed in the subfamily Ponginae along with the orangutan.


...don't get either of your points?


The Luke
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chaos
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« Reply #209 on: October 16, 2009, 07:17:04 PM »

...don't get either of your points?


The Luke
My one and only point........you believe in something that has never been proven to exist.

WTF is your problem with other people believing in something if it makes them feel better about themselves or treat their neighbor a little better?
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The Luke
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« Reply #210 on: October 16, 2009, 07:32:28 PM »

My one and only point........you believe in something that has never been proven to exist.

It has been proven (Gigantopithecus fossils), the question is whether they STILL exist... I think they do, as do almost all the scientists who have taken the time to examine the evidence. The fact that a majority of Americans can't even accept the theory of evolution has somewhat coloured the debate: the current evidence is conclusive, but not yet incontrovertible. Only a fresh body will do that.

WTF is your problem with other people believing in something if it makes them feel better about themselves or treat their neighbor a little better?

...one word: Crusades.



The Luke
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« Reply #211 on: October 16, 2009, 07:44:17 PM »

It has been proven (Gigantopithecus fossils),



The Luke
Did you not read your wiki article, it clearly states they are in the same family as orangutans, and that they were not bipedal, so how is it proven?
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The Luke
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« Reply #212 on: October 16, 2009, 07:45:17 PM »

Did you not read your wiki article, it clearly states they are in the same family as orangutans, not humans, so how is it proven?

...did I ever claim they were?


The Luke
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« Reply #213 on: October 16, 2009, 07:56:52 PM »

...did I ever claim they were?


The Luke
Edited. Roll Eyes


Point is, you nor anyone else can prove they exist today, and you cannot disprove something that happened thousands of years ago (the bible).......so you are arguing and whining trying to change someones beliefs because you disagree with them, yet you won't change your about bigfoot.....get my point yet??
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The Luke
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« Reply #214 on: October 16, 2009, 10:00:26 PM »

Edited. Roll Eyes

...the bipedalism argument is dependent on two lower jaws and some teeth, and Gigantopithecus was only ever ASSUMED to be a quadruped. I side with the latest research which infers bipedalism from the distinctive U-shape of the jaws (a trait only found in bipedal hominids).

You have to remember Wikipedia is open source and as such is open to tampering. It is also somewhat behind the times. When first discovered, the fossils were originally dubbed Giganthropus (the giant man) before being termed Gigantopithecus (the giant ape).


Point is, you nor anyone else can prove they exist today, and you cannot disprove something that happened thousands of years ago (the bible).......so you are arguing and whining trying to change someones beliefs because you disagree with them, yet you won't change your about bigfoot.....get my point yet??

They have been proven to exist from the hair; footprint and fingerprint evidence. It just won't receive public acceptance till there is a body or DNA (the hair found thus far is resistant to DNA extraction). This is because of the widespread belief in Creationism, and the uneducated belief of the public that random people somehow report detailed descriptions of an animal that did once exist according to the fossil record. And have somehow reported sighting such since long before the fossils were fond.

 
But you can PROVE that the Shrod of Turin is a fake, it's just that the public WANTS to believe in it.

I'm open to changing any of my beliefs based on proper scientific proof, as I never form a belief or opinion without properly assessing the evidence... that's the exact opposite to the faith-based approach.


The Luke
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« Reply #215 on: October 17, 2009, 05:14:44 AM »

...the bipedalism argument is dependent on two lower jaws and some teeth, and Gigantopithecus was only ever ASSUMED to be a quadruped. I side with the latest research which infers bipedalism from the distinctive U-shape of the jaws (a trait only found in bipedal hominids).

You have to remember Wikipedia is open source and as such is open to tampering. It is also somewhat behind the times. When first discovered, the fossils were originally dubbed Giganthropus (the giant man) before being termed Gigantopithecus (the giant ape).


They have been proven to exist from the hair; footprint and fingerprint evidence. It just won't receive public acceptance till there is a body or DNA (the hair found thus far is resistant to DNA extraction). This is because of the widespread belief in Creationism, and the uneducated belief of the public that random people somehow report detailed descriptions of an animal that did once exist according to the fossil record. And have somehow reported sighting such since long before the fossils were fond.

 
But you can PROVE that the Shrod of Turin is a fake, it's just that the public WANTS to believe in it.

I'm open to changing any of my beliefs based on proper scientific proof, as I never form a belief or opinion without properly assessing the evidence... that's the exact opposite to the faith-based approach.


The Luke
*sigh*

You just don't get it.  Typical of someone who wants to believe something without solid scientific proof.
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« Reply #216 on: October 17, 2009, 08:37:00 AM »

The idiot:   U comparing faith to a furry creature that sells beef jerky. Are u insane. If the Shroud is real or fake its a matter of faith, however ur a crytozoologist that chases a creature that hasn't proved to be real? Gimme a break.
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The Luke
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« Reply #217 on: October 17, 2009, 05:46:56 PM »

If the Shroud is real or fake its a matter of faith, however ur a crytozoologist that chases a creature that hasn't proved to be real? Gimme a break.

The Shroud is a fake... that's not a matter of faith... it's a matter of scientific fact.

Like I said, the Bigfoot/Sasquatch issue has already been resolved conclusively... just not yet incontrovertibly. Science-minded people like me are busily attempting to collect such incontrovertible proof.


But an extant hominid is NOT impossible.

The Shroud IS IMPOSSIBLE.

Belief in one requires a familiarity with the collected scientific evidence, belief in the other requires a rejection of both science and reality.


The Luke
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loco
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« Reply #218 on: October 19, 2009, 06:00:23 AM »

Luke believes in big foot, and he actually spends time and energy on trying to find big foot?  Is this some kind of joke?
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MCWAY
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« Reply #219 on: October 19, 2009, 09:11:06 AM »

It has been proven (Gigantopithecus fossils), the question is whether they STILL exist... I think they do, as do almost all the scientists who have taken the time to examine the evidence. The fact that a majority of Americans can't even accept the theory of evolution has somewhat coloured the debate: the current evidence is conclusive, but not yet incontrovertible. Only a fresh body will do that.

...one word: Crusades.



The Luke

PLEASE!! You could resume the Crusades from the time it stopped until NOW, and you wouldn't come close the amount of bodies racked up by non-believing skeptics like Hitler, Mao, and Stalin (do those names ring a bell?). Atheists try to distance themselves from guys like this for DECADES. Based on their respective track records, it ain't hard to see why.
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The Luke
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« Reply #220 on: October 19, 2009, 05:07:00 PM »

PLEASE!! You could resume the Crusades from the time it stopped until NOW, and you wouldn't come close the amount of bodies racked up by non-believing skeptics like Hitler, Mao, and Stalin (do those names ring a bell?). Atheists try to distance themselves from guys like this for DECADES. Based on their respective track records, it ain't hard to see why.

...Iraq and Afghanistan (maybe Iran soon) is another crusade, Bush (Evangelical Christian President voted into office by Evagelical Christian voting block) even said so himself.

Hitler, Mao and Stalin didn't kill people in the name of Atheism (or the Flying Spaghetti Monster) but the Crusades were fought for religious reasons... and Jesus himself told George Dubya Bsh to invade Iraq and Afghanistan.

All ideologies that give rise to delusional thinking (ie: religion and fundamentalism) are redundant... as an ideology is only ever a simplified model of reality.


But to get back on track... the Shroud of Turin is a fake; an easily demonstatable Medieval chemistry trick.

No amount of believing; no amount of hoping will ever change this.

Let's agree it belongs on the trash heap of history along with the 6 actual genuine foreskins of Jesus likewise worshipped as relics at one time.


The Luke
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chaos
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« Reply #221 on: October 19, 2009, 07:13:57 PM »

Luke believes in big foot, and he actually spends time and energy on trying to find big foot?  Is this some kind of joke?
No joke, he lives in his parents basement so he can devote his time to finding bigfoot. Smiley
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loco
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« Reply #222 on: October 20, 2009, 11:01:04 AM »

No joke, he lives in his parents basement so he can devote his time to finding bigfoot. Smiley

 Huh


* wtf.jpg (8.84 KB, 101x159 - viewed 1063 times.)
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« Reply #223 on: November 20, 2009, 08:57:08 AM »

Researcher says text proves Shroud of Turin real

Nov. 20, 2009

ROME A Vatican researcher claims a nearly invisible text on the Shroud of Turin proves the authenticity of the artifact revered as Jesus' burial cloth.

The claim made in a new book by historian Barbara Frale drew immediate skepticism from some scientists, who maintain the shroud is a medieval forgery.

Frale, a researcher at the Vatican archives, said Friday that she used computers to enhance images of faintly written words in Greek, Latin and Aramaic scattered across the shroud.

She asserts the words include the name "Jesus Nazarene" in Greek, proving the text could not be of medieval origin because no Christian at the time, even a forger, would have labeled Jesus a Nazarene without referring to his divinity.

The shroud bears the figure of a crucified man, complete with blood seeping out of nailed hands and feet, and believers say Christ's image was recorded on the linen fibers at the time of his resurrection.

The fragile artifact, owned by the Vatican, is kept locked in a special protective chamber in Turin's cathedral and is rarely shown.

Skeptics point out that radiocarbon dating conducted in 1988 determined it was made in the 13th or 14th century.

While faint letters scattered around the face on the shroud were seen decades ago, serious researchers dismissed them due to the test's results, Frale told The Associated Press.

But when she cut out the words from photos of the shroud and showed them to experts they concurred the writing style was typical of the Middle East in the first century Jesus' time.

She believes the text was written on a document by a clerk and glued to the shroud over the face so the body could be identified by relatives and buried properly. Metals in the ink used at the time may have allowed the writing to transfer to the linen, Frale claimed.

Frale claimed the text also partially confirms the Gospels' account of Jesus' final moments. A fragment in Greek that can be read as "removed at the ninth hour" may refer to Christ's time of death reported in the holy texts, she said.

"I tried to be objective and leave religious issue aside," Frale told The AP. "What I studied was an ancient document that certifies the execution of a man, in a specific time and place."

Her book, titled "The Shroud of Jesus Nazarene" in Italian, raised doubts among some experts.

"People work on grainy photos and think they see things," said Antonio Lombatti, a church historian who has written books about the shroud. "It's all the result of imagination and computer software."

Lombatti said that artifacts bearing Greek and Aramaic texts were found in Jewish burials from the first century, but the use of Latin is unheard of.

He also rejected the idea that authorities would officially return the body of a crucified man to relatives after filling out some paperwork. Victims of the most cruel punishment used by the Romans would usually be left on the cross or were disposed of in a dump to add to the execution's deterring effect.

Lombatti said "the message was that you won't even have a tomb to cry over."

Unusual sightings in the shroud are common and are often proved false, said Luigi Garlaschelli, a professor of chemistry at the University of Pavia.

Garlaschelli recently led a team of experts that reproduced the shroud using materials and methods that were available in the 14th century, proof, they said, that it could have been made by a human hand in the Middle Ages.

Decades ago entire studies were published on coins that were purportedly seen on Jesus' closed eyes, but when high-definition images were taken during a 2002 restoration the artifacts were nowhere to be seen and the theory was dropped, Garlaschelli said.

He said any theory about ink and metals would have to checked by analysis of the shroud itself.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091120/ap_on_re_eu/eu_italy_shroud_of_turin
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« Reply #224 on: December 22, 2011, 06:15:20 AM »

Scientists say Turin Shroud image created by ultraviolet lasers

 

December 22, 2011

The exact origins of the Turin Shroud remain a great mystery, but scientists are now disputing the long-held belief that the religious artifact is a medieval forgery.

Italian researchers at the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development say they believe the image was created by an ultraviolet "flash of light." However, if that theory is true, it remains a mystery as to exactly how that technology could have been implemented at the time of the Shroud's creation. While the technology is readily available in present day, it was far beyond the means of anyone around pre-20th Century.

The Turin Shroud is said to be the burial cloth of Jesus, but has long been believed to be a fake, created during medieval times. It is currently kept in a climate-controlled case in Turin cathedral. Scientists at the Italian agency have reportedly spent years attempting to recreate the Shroud's imagery. 'The results show a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin,' the scientists said.

"When one talks about a flash of light being able to color a piece of linen in the same way as the shroud, discussion inevitably touches on things such as miracles," said Professor Paolo Di Lazzaro, who led the study. "But as scientists, we were concerned only with verifiable scientific processes. We hope our results can open up a philosophical and theological debate."

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/scientists-turin-shroud-image-created-ultraviolet-lasers-182107870.html
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