owe props to this board

[Deadpool]

whomever suggested the grapefruit juice with ECA, thank you thank you thank you

and canidate/canidizzle said to take it with green tea extract too, trying it today

[candidizzle]

yes the green tea extract helps alot. you will be happy you tried it.

[busyB]

whomever suggested the grapefruit juice with ECA, thank you thank you thank you

and canidate/canidizzle said to take it with green tea extract too, trying it today

Wouldn't taking in all the sugar from the juice be counter productive if bodyfat loss is your goal?

[Deadpool]

it's not that much sugar.  and the speeded up ECA counters it.

[busyB]

Guess it depends on what your trying to do with regards to the eca stack. Last thing anyone would want is to spike insulin levels before cardio if you are trying to lose bodyfat. 

Not sure if they make Narginin (sp?) supps but that would be better than ingesting sugar before cardio. Just my .2 cents.

But if you are just wanting the stimulant effect, then I guess that is cool to add grapefruit juice??

[Emmortal]

Are you really spiking insulin levels that much with a small amount of grapefruit juice?  I don't know if that's enough to cause an elevated spike, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Necrosis]

what is the rationale behind taking grapefruit with eca? grapefruit juice contains a benzofuran called bergamottin which inhibits cytochrome p450 and its isozyme which process some drugs, and make them ineffective. thats why they say not to drink grapefruit juice and certain meds, i would make sure ephedrine isnt processed by this enzyme as alot of drugs are and it could potentially make the drug less effective. however, it could make it more effective, its worth investigating for sure.

[Deadpool]

yeah and in this case it's supposed to increase potency. I'm experimenting.

[busyB]

Are you really spiking insulin levels that much with a small amount of grapefruit juice?  I don't know if that's enough to cause an elevated spike, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

I dont know how much sugar is in grapefruit juice. I am lazy and did not look up. But if there is enough to spike insulin levels, would be counter productive for fat loss.

[Rimbaud]

Just get some clen & run a low dose for a couple weeks at a time. I noticed that ECA gives me worse sides then clen.

[candidizzle]

eca is better than clenbuterol in my opinion.....but i am only speaking from a "science" point of view...i dont have any personal experience with clen. 

couldnt you take a grapefruit extract that is non nutritive and still gives the same benefits?

[Rimbaud]

eca is better than clenbuterol in my opinion.....but i am only speaking from a "science" point of view...i dont have any personal experience with clen. 

couldnt you take a grapefruit extract that is non nutritive and still gives the same benefits?

If you look hard enough you'll fine studies to support either side. The reason I like clen is because the half life is so long. As opposed to ephedrine which is only around 4 hours.

[candidizzle]

If you look hard enough you'll fine studies to support either side. The reason I like clen is because the half life is so long. As opposed to ephedrine which is only around 4 hours.

my thinking is that clenbuterol is a stronger beta-2 antagonist, and haas a longer half life....but its just a beta 2 antagonist, thats it...the eca stack combines other factors, (caffiene and aspirin) in order to keep the effectiveness of a bet-2 antagonizer up while dieting....a beta-2 antagonizer alone, no matter the strength, will be countered by the body at some point....(down graded cyclical amp and other things that if orget about..lol)..

i guess a clen+caffiene+aspirin stack would be superior to both. but i have never heard of that....and i would think that i would have heard of it already if it was effective; since it is such a simple solution.

[Rimbaud]

candi, I think/hope you have the best intentions. However, I'd say that you need to do a little more experimenting & a little less research. I don't mean that as a slam.

You should try some clen for a month & then try eca for a month & see what happens.

I've had a love/hate relationship with both for the past couple years. However, I like a low dose of clen as a pick-me-up (about 40-80mcg per day).

[candidizzle]

i know what you mean..i am not dieting right now...but i still use eca occasionally as a pick me up.    problem with clen is that the only place i know to get it besides the internet which is too expensive wouldnt sell it to me because im too young(so he says) and i need to stick to the basics for now (whey creatine bcaas and whole food)...which i agree with; but i dont think it really applies to a cutting agent like clen. yeah....cytomel would probably be to much, and it would be to dangerous with the thyroid i think, but clen? ...imo im old enough.   but ... its not up to me. lol.

[Rimbaud]

i know what you mean..i am not dieting right now...but i still use eca occasionally as a pick me up.    problem with clen is that the only place i know to get it besides the internet which is too expensive wouldnt sell it to me because im too young(so he says) and i need to stick to the basics for now (whey creatine bcaas and whole food)...which i agree with; but i dont think it really applies to a cutting agent like clen. yeah....cytomel would probably be to much, and it would be to dangerous with the thyroid i think, but clen? ...imo im old enough.   but ... its not up to me. lol.

Cytomel is fine (but makes me too jittery) but it'll eat muscle if you're not on AAS. However, judging by your age I'd recommend you stick to the basics as well.

[Emmortal]

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/167/3/279

Grapefruit juice: potential drug interactions
James Maskalyk

Editorial Fellow, CMAJ

Reason for posting: Grapefruit juice interacts with a number of medications. This unusual discovery was made serendipitously in 1989 during an experiment designed to test the effect of ethanol on a calcium-channel blocker.1 The observed response was later determined to be due to the grapefruit juice delivery vehicle rather than the alcohol. In the past decade, the list of drug interactions with grapefruit juice has expanded to include several classes of medication, precipitating a recent advisory from Health Canada.2

The interaction: As little as 250 mL of grapefruit juice can change the metabolism of some drugs.3 This drug–food interaction occurs because of a common pathway involving a specific isoform of cytochrome P450 — CYP3A4 — present in both the liver and the intestinal wall. Studies suggest that grapefruit juice exerts its effect primarily at the level of the intestine.4

After ingestion, a substrate contained in the grapefruit binds to the intestinal isoenzyme, impairing first-pass metabolism directly and causing a sustained decrease in CYP3A4 protein expression.5 Within 4 hours of ingestion, a reduction in the effective CYP3A4 concentration occurs, with effects lasting up to 24 hours.6 The net result is inhibition of drug metabolism in the intestine and increased oral bioavailability. Because of the prolonged response, separating the intake of the drug and the juice does not prevent interference.

Individuals express CYP3A4 in different proportions, those with the highest intestinal concentration being most susceptible to grapefruit juice–drug interactions.5 An effect is seen with the whole fruit as well as its juice, so caution should be exercised with both.7 The precise chemical compound in grapefruit that causes the interaction has not been identified. There is no similar reaction with orange juice, although there is some suspicion that "sour oranges" such as the Seville variety, may have some effect.8 A recent study, however, that tested the known interference of grapefruit juice with cyclosporine showed no similar effect with Seville oranges.9

There is some interest in the potential therapeutic benefit of adding grapefruit juice to a drug regimen to increase oral bioavailability.3 The limitation is the individual variation in patient response. However, if the chemical that causes grapefruit's CYP3A4 inhibition is elucidated, there may be an opportunity to modulate that pathway in a controlled fashion.

What to do: Much of the data obtained on grapefruit juice–drug interactions involved measuring serum drug concentrations in small numbers of healthy volunteers. Because of the limited data and only occasional case reports,10 it is difficult to quantify the clinical significance for individual patients. One may assume that the interaction occurs primarily with oral medicines, and only with those that share the CYP3A4 metabolism pathway, with the consequence being increased oral bioavailability, higher serum drug concentrations and associated adverse effects.

Physicians should review medication lists often, with the goal of warning patients about adverse interactions. A list of medicines with which patients should not consume grapefruit is provided in Table 1.3,11,12 In the case of several medications that share the CYP3A4 metabolism pathway, but for which a clinical effect has not been elucidated or is theoretical, patients should be advised to consume grapefruit cautiously and be monitored for toxicity.

James Maskalyk Editorial Fellow, CMAJ

References

   1. Bailey DG, Spence JD, Edgar B, Bayliff CD, Arnold JM. Ethanol enhances the hemodynamic effects of felodipine. Clin Invest Med 1989;12:357-62.[Medline]
   2. Health Canada is advising Canadians not to take certain drugs with grapefruit juice. Ottawa: Health Canada; 2002 Jun 21. Available: www.hc-sc.gc.ca/english/protection/warnings/2002/2002_49e.htm (accessed 2002 Jul 9).
   3. Kane G, Lipsky J. Drug–grapefruit juice interactions. Mayo Clin Proc 2000;75:933-42.[Medline]
   4. Lundahl J, Regardh CJ, Edgar B, Johnsson G. Effects of grapefruit juice ingestion — pharmacokinetics and haemodynamics of intravenously and orally administered felodipine in healthy men. Eur J Pharmacol 1997;52:139-45.
   5. Lown KS, Bailey DG, Fontana RJ, Janardan SK, Adair CH, Fortlage LA, et al. Grapefruit juice increases felodipine oral availability in humans by decreasing intestinal CYP3A protein expression. J Clin Invest 1997;99(10):2545-53.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
   6. Lundahl J, Regardh CG, Edgar B, Johnsson G. Relationship between time of intake of grapefruit juice and its effect on pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of felodipine in healthy subjects. Eur J Clin Pharmacol 1995;49:61-7.[Medline]
   7. Bailey DG, Kreeft JH, Munoz C, Freeman DJ, Bend JR. Grapefruit juice–felodipine interaction: effect of segments and an extract from unprocessed fruits [abstract]. Clin Pharmacol Ther 2000;67:107.
   8. Malhotra S, Bailey DG, Paine MF, Watkins PB Seville orange juice–felodipine interaction: comparison with dilute grapefruit juice and involvement of furocoumarins. Clin Pharmacol Ther 2001;69(1):14-23. [Medline]
   9. Edwards DJ, Fitzsimmons ME, Schuetz EG, Yasuda K, Ducharme MP, Warbasse LH, et al. 6,7-Dihydrobergamottin in grapefruit juice and Seville orange juice: effects on cyclosporine disposition, enterocyte CYP3A4, and P-glycoprotein. Clin Pharmacol Ther 1999;65:237-44.[Medline]
  10. Goldbart A, Press J, Sofer S, Kapelushnik J. Near fatal acute colchicine intoxication in a child. A case report. Eur J Pediatr 2000;159(12):895-7.[Medline]
  11. Drug administration and grapefruit juice. In: Compendium of pharmaceuticals and specialties. Ottawa: Canadian Pharmicists Association; 2001. p. L63-65.
  12. McNeece J. Interactions between grapefruit juice and some drugs available in Australia

. Australian Prescriber 2002;25(2). Available: www.australianprescriber .com (accessed 2002 July 9).

[Princess L]

However, judging by your age I'd recommend you stick to the basics as well.

and addictive tendancies

[Necrosis]

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/167/3/279

"what is the rationale behind taking grapefruit with eca? grapefruit juice contains a benzofuran called bergamottin which inhibits cytochrome p450 and its isozyme which process some drugs, and make them ineffective. thats why they say not to drink grapefruit juice and certain meds, i would make sure ephedrine isnt processed by this enzyme as alot of drugs are and it could potentially make the drug less effective. however, it could make it more effective, its worth investigating for sure."

posted earlier, your post touches on exactly what i was taking about. st johns wort fucks this enzyme as well as kava kava and few other herbals, people taking meds should read Emmortals post as it can alter your medications metabolism resulting in heightened or decreased effects.