Author Topic: Nubain and Bodybuilders...  (Read 23399 times)

DIVISION

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Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« on: January 05, 2008, 06:40:04 PM »
(Taken from LEGAL MUSCLE by Rick Collins)


Q: I saw a recent HBO documentary about an extreme fighter hooked on Nubain. Is Nubain a controlled substance?

A: Nalbuphine (pronounced "NAL-byou-feen") hydrochloride, commonly called by the brand name Nubain® or simply "Bain," is an injectable synthetic prescription drug common among some bodybuilders who use it for its reported ability to take the edge off dieting, to improve fat burning by increasing T-3 uptake, and mostly as a mild analgesic to alleviate the various pains associated with heavy training. It provides a "functional high" and a slight numbing effect that doesn't interfere with ordinary activities, including lifting. Doesn't sound too shabby, huh? Well, read on before drawing any conclusions.

Once upon a time, nalbuphine was a controlled substance. Like most other opiates, it fell within Schedule II of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. § 812) as a drug deemed to have a high potential for abuse that may lead to severe psychological or physical dependence. But in 1973, a pharmaceutical company looking to make money marketing the drug made a pitch claiming that nalbuphine did not have sufficient potential for abuse to justify its continued control. They made an appealing case. Like morphine, nalbuphine is a painkiller that exerts agonistic or stimulating effects on the body's opiate receptors. But unlike morphine, nalbuphine is also an antagonist or blocker to certain opiate receptors. The result of this mixed agonist/antagonist character is a built-in "ceiling" or safety net that provides a mild analgesic effect without the euphoria or potential for deadly overdose associated with morphine and other opiates. This self-inhibiting and non-toxic character makes nalbuphine significantly less attractive to typical drug addicts. Accordingly, nalbuphine can be argued to be much less addictive than other opiates. Well, the FDA bought the argument. They recommended to the DEA that nalbuphine be removed entirely from the schedules of controlled substances, conveniently paving the way for the drug company's profits. The DEA obliged, and to this day nalbuphine remains specifically excluded from the list (see 21 C.F.R. § 1308.12). The DEA just doesn't view it as a drug of abuse.

But anecdotal accounts say otherwise. While extreme fighter Mark Kerr in the HBO report appeared to be additionally using various other opiates, reports of psychological addiction to nalbuphine abound. A few elite level bodybuilders have publicly described their experiences with nalbuphine dependency. Online bodybuilding forums regularly detail various nalbuphine abuse stories. State law enforcement authorities have begun to take interest in physicians who facilitate non-medical nalbuphine users, and one physician was recently convicted for prescribing nalbuphine for other than legitimate and therapeutic purposes (see, State v. Clausing, 15 P.3d 203 (2001).) While controversy continues over the nature and intensity of nalbuphine addiction, there's no doubt that a certain percentage of users get a little too used to the pain relief and mellowing that nalbuphine provides. As a user's tolerance increases, dosages can edge up, intravenous injections can become preferable to intramuscular ones, and shooting up throughout the day can become a routine and vital part of life.

However you might feel about the ethics of administering steroids as a tool for muscle building, nalbuphine use may be quite different. Some bodybuilders are going beyond treating pain and may be simply using nalbuphine as a recreational drug. Still, the DEA seems happy to look the other way. Instead, they're busy helping anti-doping special interest groups to goad Congress into viewing over-the-counter sports supplements like androstenedione as drugs of abuse. Legislation to criminalize prohormones is already pending in Washington, and if it passes, mature health-conscious adults will be prosecuted as federal drug criminals for having these products for personal use USFA.biz for further information). Interesting governmental priorities, indeed.

Anyway, regardless of the legalities, if you're a healthy bodybuilder, the safest choice is to let the Bain Train pass you by.

© Rick Collins, 2003. All rights reserved. For informational purposes only, not to be construed as legal advice.


I have a hard time believing that Nubain is an epidemic among bodybuilders/strength athletes. 

I tend to think that addicts are addicts, whether it be narcotics or anabolics, if the personality trait is there, it's going to be exploited in one way or another.

Sure, there are going to be some "elite" level bodybuilders who are foolish enough to get addicted to Nubain, but those guys are pumping so many drugs through their bodies that Nubain must seem like "just another injection" to them.  Those guys are too far gone from reality anyway for me to sympathize with their perspective.

I'm a personal trainer and I know several guys who use anabolics yet not one has ever mentioned Nubain.  It's just something I never hear about from anyone in my circles.

Analgesics when abused are catabolic in nature due to the fact that they mask the very signs and symptoms of overtraining while also interferring with the normal muscle recuperative process.

I just can't see a guy investing so much money in to his body (drugs, food, supplements) only to jeopardize that by running around every few hours injecting Nubain to the point that he's addicted to it.

Now.......I can see your typical seasonal gym lifter as someone who probably uses Nubain, in the same way he probably uses other narcotics and recreational drugs, maybe AAS as well.

.....but serious bodybuilders?

Am I totally off track here, or is Nubain a serious problem in bodybuilding circles?

The whole reason it's not scheduled with other narcotics is because of its ceiling effect which seems to be at about 30MG (1.5mL).

Yet bodybuilders are getting addicted to it?

I don't see it.




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Re: Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2008, 06:44:42 PM »
thank Dan Duchaine for introducing it into the bodybuilding world.
X

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Re: Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2008, 07:02:02 PM »
I can't speak for all circles, but a lot of guys here in my neck of the woods use it. Some more then others...some of them, who knows how much they're using...you never know for sure what people are doing behind closed doors. I don't' know how many of them have to inject it all day long just to live and function. but I know some who won't train without it.

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Re: Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2008, 11:42:37 AM »
(Taken from LEGAL MUSCLE by Rick Collins)

Am I totally off track here, or is Nubain a serious problem in bodybuilding circles?

DIV   


I can't say for certain how common Nubain abuse is among bodybuilders.  Remember, there are two types of bodybuilders.  There are those true to the sport and it's principles (you know who you are), and there are the local nimrods who uses gear irresponsibly along with a host of other recreational drugs (you know who you are). 

I suppose those who would be inclined to take substances such as oxycodone would be similarly inclined to give Nubain a try, but they are distinctly different compounds.

Both are potent opiate receptor agonists, but they act at different receptors. Oxycodone, morphine and fentanyl are mu receptor agonists, while Nubain acts at the mu receptor as well as the kappa and delta receptors. 

There is a misconception, I think, among bodybuilders that Nubain is a safer, less potent drug that allows the user to function at reasonable (i.e. undetectable) levels of impairment. It also is felt to be less addictive.  This is false.  Nubains potency is equivalent to morphine on a milligram basis.

You mentioned the ceiling effect.  Please allow me to clarify this:  The major difference between the two is that Nubain exhibits a strong ceiling effect, i.e. after a certain dosage (around 30 mg) there is no further analgesic effect (and no further effect on things like respiratory depression).  This makes it very different from oxycodone, in which the ceiling to analgesic effectiveness is imposed only by its side effects.  So, I suppose, to a bodybuilder (or other similar drug-addicted personality), there is no sense in progressively increasing the dosage to get a better "high", unlike morphine.  The problem here is, though, that the user may switch to a different opiod because of this.  Paul DeMayo comes to mind as a classic example.  Apparently, he began with Nubain and transitioned eventually over to heroin.

Also, it is unwise to switch from something like oxycodone to Nubain, in the mistaken idea that it will help ease you out of your oxycodone addiction.  Nubain is considered a "mixed" opiod, as it has agonist AND antagonist effects on the receptors.  At low doses, it demonstrates potent opiod antagonist effects that can result in rather acute withdrawl in patients dependent on opiod drugs.

Best to steer clear altogether, I would think.

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Re: Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2008, 12:30:54 PM »
I don't believe Nubain is not as prevelant now as it was in the late 80's-90's for bodybuilders. What I have been told by those that used it, was it is a great high. Remember, Paul DeMayo (Quadzilla) died from Nubain overdose. Heard it is similar to Opiate high, like Herion. But this is just from bb's I know that have messed with it, not from personal use or any medical research, just word of mouth.

I actually had to fire an employee about 6 years ago because he was hooked on it. Would show up to work stumbling, slurring and incoherant. I could never get out of him what he was on until he cleaned up. He went to re-hab and came back in to thank me for firing him few months later telling me the whole story. Crazy shit, that is for sure.

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Re: Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2008, 10:07:59 AM »
Remember, Paul DeMayo (Quadzilla) died from Nubain overdose.

No, he died from a heroin overdose.

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Re: Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2008, 12:21:27 PM »
No, he died from a heroin overdose.

You sure? First heard heroin, then Nubain. I am just going off BB heresay...

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Re: Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2008, 07:48:40 PM »
I can't say for certain how common Nubain abuse is among bodybuilders.  Remember, there are two types of bodybuilders.  There are those true to the sport and it's principles (you know who you are), and there are the local nimrods who uses gear irresponsibly along with a host of other recreational drugs (you know who you are). 

I suppose those who would be inclined to take substances such as oxycodone would be similarly inclined to give Nubain a try, but they are distinctly different compounds.

Both are potent opiate receptor agonists, but they act at different receptors. Oxycodone, morphine and fentanyl are mu receptor agonists, while Nubain acts at the mu receptor as well as the kappa and delta receptors. 

There is a misconception, I think, among bodybuilders that Nubain is a safer, less potent drug that allows the user to function at reasonable (i.e. undetectable) levels of impairment. It also is felt to be less addictive.  This is false.  Nubains potency is equivalent to morphine on a milligram basis.

You mentioned the ceiling effect.  Please allow me to clarify this:  The major difference between the two is that Nubain exhibits a strong ceiling effect, i.e. after a certain dosage (around 30 mg) there is no further analgesic effect (and no further effect on things like respiratory depression).  This makes it very different from oxycodone, in which the ceiling to analgesic effectiveness is imposed only by its side effects.  So, I suppose, to a bodybuilder (or other similar drug-addicted personality), there is no sense in progressively increasing the dosage to get a better "high", unlike morphine.  The problem here is, though, that the user may switch to a different opiod because of this.  Paul DeMayo comes to mind as a classic example.  Apparently, he began with Nubain and transitioned eventually over to heroin.

Also, it is unwise to switch from something like oxycodone to Nubain, in the mistaken idea that it will help ease you out of your oxycodone addiction.  Nubain is considered a "mixed" opiod, as it has agonist AND antagonist effects on the receptors.  At low doses, it demonstrates potent opiod antagonist effects that can result in rather acute withdrawl in patients dependent on opiod drugs.

Best to steer clear altogether, I would think.
Nice job explaining things.  Very easy to understand.

DIVISION

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Re: Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2008, 10:30:52 PM »
I can't say for certain how common Nubain abuse is among bodybuilders.  Remember, there are two types of bodybuilders.  There are those true to the sport and it's principles (you know who you are), and there are the local nimrods who uses gear irresponsibly along with a host of other recreational drugs (you know who you are). 

I suppose those who would be inclined to take substances such as oxycodone would be similarly inclined to give Nubain a try, but they are distinctly different compounds.

Both are potent opiate receptor agonists, but they act at different receptors. Oxycodone, morphine and fentanyl are mu receptor agonists, while Nubain acts at the mu receptor as well as the kappa and delta receptors. 

There is a misconception, I think, among bodybuilders that Nubain is a safer, less potent drug that allows the user to function at reasonable (i.e. undetectable) levels of impairment. It also is felt to be less addictive.  This is false.  Nubains potency is equivalent to morphine on a milligram basis.

You mentioned the ceiling effect.  Please allow me to clarify this:  The major difference between the two is that Nubain exhibits a strong ceiling effect, i.e. after a certain dosage (around 30 mg) there is no further analgesic effect (and no further effect on things like respiratory depression).  This makes it very different from oxycodone, in which the ceiling to analgesic effectiveness is imposed only by its side effects.  So, I suppose, to a bodybuilder (or other similar drug-addicted personality), there is no sense in progressively increasing the dosage to get a better "high", unlike morphine.  The problem here is, though, that the user may switch to a different opiod because of this.  Paul DeMayo comes to mind as a classic example.  Apparently, he began with Nubain and transitioned eventually over to heroin.

Also, it is unwise to switch from something like oxycodone to Nubain, in the mistaken idea that it will help ease you out of your oxycodone addiction.  Nubain is considered a "mixed" opiod, as it has agonist AND antagonist effects on the receptors.  At low doses, it demonstrates potent opiod antagonist effects that can result in rather acute withdrawl in patients dependent on opiod drugs.

Best to steer clear altogether, I would think.


I can buy the argument that Nubain is a transitory drug, a bridge to something like Oxycodone......but Heroin?

That's a huge leap, IMO.........esp for a professional bodybuilder.

I just find it hard to fathom unless the individual was already too far gone to see a distinction.

These opiates are catabolic in nature when used to excess, so I just can't see professional bodybuilders abusing them while still keeping gains.

Regardless of the degree of androgens in the body, the opiates still have longlasting effects which can't be fully masked by exogenous testosterone and other anabolic substances.

Something has to give.........

I'm just not convinced that Nubain is an epidemic, at least not to the degree that many would have us believe.



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busyB

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Re: Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2008, 08:22:05 AM »

I can buy the argument that Nubain is a transitory drug, a bridge to something like Oxycodone......but Heroin?

That's a huge leap, IMO.........esp for a professional bodybuilder.

I just find it hard to fathom unless the individual was already too far gone to see a distinction.

These opiates are catabolic in nature when used to excess, so I just can't see professional bodybuilders abusing them while still keeping gains.

Regardless of the degree of androgens in the body, the opiates still have longlasting effects which can't be fully masked by exogenous testosterone and other anabolic substances.

Something has to give.........

I'm just not convinced that Nubain is an epidemic, at least not to the degree that many would have us believe.



DIV

Have you ever seen someone on Nubain? The guy I fired would be so out of it, stubbling, incoherent, etc. so it obvoiusly fucked him up like herion!

He was a big boy too and was always on gear as well, never lost his size.

I do not think it is an epidemic as it was back in the 90's. That Mark Kerr special is quite old as well, early 2000 or late '90's I believe.

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Re: Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2008, 11:04:24 AM »
You sure? First heard heroin, then Nubain. I am just going off BB heresay...
It was herion that was very pure, leading to an overdose.
I always felt sorry for the guy in the end once his world fell apart after doing some jail time  :(

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Re: Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2008, 11:08:16 AM »
thank Dan Duchaine for introducing it into the bodybuilding world.
If it was not nubain it would just be something else.
A lot of body builders are obsesive compulsive and will take just about anything.
I rest my case on DNP a bug poison, dinamite ingrediant and dye fixer for weight loss, not to mention insulin, diaretics and a host of other things that can kill you:-\

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Re: Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2008, 11:15:25 AM »
It was herion that was very pure, leading to an overdose.
I always felt sorry for the guy in the end once his world fell apart after doing some jail time  :(

Ok, thanks for that. Yeah, kid had a lot of potential.

I am just glad I have never tried Nubain. Had opportunity but too many horror stories for me...

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Re: Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2008, 11:17:57 AM »
Ok, thanks for that. Yeah, kid had a lot of potential.

I am just glad I have never tried Nubain. Had opportunity but too many horror stories for me...
I have a very low addiction threshold so I am very careful what I try.

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Re: Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2008, 02:39:34 PM »
I have a very low addiction threshold so I am very careful what I try.
I'm the same way as you...that's why I've never touched it. I'll admit, I have been very, very tempted though...sometimes some of the pain get to be too much.

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Re: Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2008, 03:49:07 PM »
I have a very low addiction threshold so I am very careful what I try.

Agreed, same way bro. All of us here must have a bit of an addictive personalities otherwise we would have been done with BB after the first time we got really sore.




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Re: Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2008, 05:07:58 PM »
I have a very low addiction threshold so I am very careful what I try.

Same with me. Which is why I no longer take any rec drugs.

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Re: Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2008, 05:17:47 PM »
Bunch of freeking drug addicts  ;D

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Re: Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2008, 06:29:00 PM »
Bunch of freeking drug addicts  ;D

I feel bad for those who can't self-moderate when it comes to drugs, regardless of the type.

I''m not an addictive personality, and I've never had an issue with substances.

For me control of the body, the senses is important.......especial ly during training.

I can't imagine using a painkiller before a workout.

I'd be too worried about over-exerting and tearing something I can't feel.



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Re: Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2008, 06:33:42 PM »
I feel bad for those who can't self-moderate when it comes to drugs, regardless of the type.

I''m not an addictive personality, and I've never had an issue with substances.

For me control of the body, the senses is important.......especial ly during training.

I can't imagine using a painkiller before a workout.

I'd be too worried about over-exerting and tearing something I can't feel.



DIV

Same with me. The concept blows my mind. I used to know a guy who would take a low dose of PCP before training. He eventually separated his shoulder while training & didn't even know it.

BTW - hi there stranger!

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Re: Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2008, 06:54:00 PM »
I feel bad for those who can't self-moderate when it comes to drugs, regardless of the type.

I''m not an addictive personality, and I've never had an issue with substances.

DIV

Yup, addiction is a horrible disease. Not something someone can just moderate though. HBO did a great series on addiction and should be out on DVD now. Good and interesting stuff, highly recommend watching it. Unfortunately, I know a lot of people that suffer from this disease, family and friends. Not something to be taken lightly.

Like RIM, I too can not deal with rec. drugs....anymore  :-\. Not to say I did not have my share, but now, thank God every day I did not wind up on that HBO special!  ;)


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Re: Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2008, 09:48:31 AM »
i grew up with a bunch of people who ended up being meth addicts by the time we were 18 and i'll tell you it was some fucked up shit to watch. i tried it once and i hated the way i felt on it...i could tell plenty of horror stories about meth and heroin but i lack the time today.

Nubain leads to heroin like valium leads to xanax. sooner or later the nubain user will want something more powerful. i've heard plenty of stories about bodybuilders who went from bain right into heroin, so i think it's a very possible bridge.

i've trained with guys who shot nubain before training, i've trained with powerlifters who did bumps of coke or meth before training swearing it made them stronger. i've also trained with guys who chugged a large expresso coffee 30 minutes before kick boxing...so i've seen a lot.

lucky for me i don't have an addictive personality, mainly because many of my family members are alcoholics and some have been to rehab for coke/meth more than once. so i've seen the demons these drugs can bring out. i also had the pleasure of carrying my halfdead friend down from his apartment so the paramedics could place him on a stretcher, he died of a xanax/alcohol overdose after i just helped him get off meth...looooong story there but i wrote it on the gossip board a while back.

so for me, drugs have no place in my life, i'll take modafinil(focus/alert script drug) during exams for my MBA but other than that i don't touch anything.

well, i got off track but i just wanted to speak my mind.

8)

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Re: Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2008, 07:28:48 PM »
Nubain is very addictive, I shoot up IV about 8 times a day.  It is really hard to come off of.  Sometimes I wish I never started, but then when I am off I miss not having emotions.  It costs me about 1000 a month, but without it now I would go insane.  Dont touch it kids, it will get ahold of you before you would even know it.

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Re: Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2008, 07:47:47 PM »
Nubain is very addictive, I shoot up IV about 8 times a day.  It is really hard to come off of.  Sometimes I wish I never started, but then when I am off I miss not having emotions.  It costs me about 1000 a month, but without it now I would go insane.  Dont touch it kids, it will get ahold of you before you would even know it.

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Re: Nubain and Bodybuilders...
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2008, 09:09:14 PM »
i grew up with a bunch of people who ended up being meth addicts by the time we were 18 and i'll tell you it was some fucked up shit to watch. i tried it once and i hated the way i felt on it...i could tell plenty of horror stories about meth and heroin but i lack the time today.

Nubain leads to heroin like valium leads to xanax. sooner or later the nubain user will want something more powerful. i've heard plenty of stories about bodybuilders who went from bain right into heroin, so i think it's a very possible bridge.

i've trained with guys who shot nubain before training, i've trained with powerlifters who did bumps of coke or meth before training swearing it made them stronger. i've also trained with guys who chugged a large expresso coffee 30 minutes before kick boxing...so i've seen a lot.

lucky for me i don't have an addictive personality, mainly because many of my family members are alcoholics and some have been to rehab for coke/meth more than once. so i've seen the demons these drugs can bring out. i also had the pleasure of carrying my halfdead friend down from his apartment so the paramedics could place him on a stretcher, he died of a xanax/alcohol overdose after i just helped him get off meth...looooong story there but i wrote it on the gossip board a while back.

so for me, drugs have no place in my life, i'll take modafinil(focus/alert script drug) during exams for my MBA but other than that i don't touch anything.

well, i got off track but i just wanted to speak my mind.

8)

Ive had some very similar experiences in my life, so I feel your pain bro.

Nubain is very addictive, I shoot up IV about 8 times a day.  It is really hard to come off of.  Sometimes I wish I never started, but then when I am off I miss not having emotions.  It costs me about 1000 a month, but without it now I would go insane.  Dont touch it kids, it will get ahold of you before you would even know it.

If what your saying is true I feel for you brotha(hoping this is not another getbig gimmick). You need to get some help and move on with your life.