Jesus Camp

[Tre]

Have you guys watched this yet?

[Purge_WTF]

  I'm gonna rent it soon. Saw clips of it on TV and it looked downright frightening, especially those kids praising the cardboard cut-out of our so-called President.

[columbusdude82]

I watched it online. Without a doubt, one of the most disturbing things I've ever seen!

[haider]

I watched it online. Without a doubt, one of the most disturbing things I've ever seen!

got it on my harddrive, I seriously couldn't eat and watch the movie at the same time. Eventually I abandoned watching the movie altogether 

[Necrosis]

got it on my harddrive, I seriously couldn't eat and watch the movie at the same time. Eventually I abandoned watching the movie altogether 

why? did you find the kids delicious?


the movie is definitive proof that all christians, save none are in fact crazy. everyone of them

[loco]

I have seen it.  It is the portrayal of a small group of Pentecostals and by no means represents Biblical Christianity.  I agree with this reviewer:

"The second problem I had with the film is the way it portrayed Christians. If the film’s intention had been to show an impartial viewpoint on the modern Evangelical movement, then they probably would have shown an aspect of it that is commonly practiced by the majority. I am not going to get into a discussion on what is right and wrong about denominations or about certain issues among denominations, but most churches that claim the Evangelical Christian tag do not regularly endorse female ministers. So by showing this as a normal practice, you are suggesting that all Christians believe and support it. Early on in the film, Becky is seen leading the kids in a prayer in tongues. Once again, whether this is right or wrong is beside the point. It is not a practice commonly endorsed by most Evangelicals, and those who do practice it are much more private about it. By showing a room full of kids writhing on the floor and speaking in tongues, it is suggesting that were one to walk into any church in America on any given Sunday, this would be considered a normal thing.

And my final problem isn’t really with the film itself, it’s with the issues that the film brought light to that I had never really paid much attention to. I have to admit, I feel sorry for the children portrayed in the film. They all seem like wonderful children, yet I couldn’t help but think that this whole experience for them is just one big emotional roller coaster. Emotion can be a very powerful thing for adults, but for children it takes on an even greater influence. The children in the film don’t really speak like normal children; don’t act like normal Christian boys and girls. They seem to be speaking like their parents, and at times, for their parents.

I have no doubt these children desire a strong relationship with God, but I fear from my own experience that if these children base their faith in Christ on an emotional whim or a feeling they get during a powerful event, they could be in for some trying times when those emotions go away."
http://www.christiananswers.net/spotlight/movies/2006/jesuscamp2006.html

[columbusdude82]

loco, what did you feel about the part where they pray over a cardboard cut-out of the president?

Also, what is your take on so-called "speaking in tongues"?

[Straw Man]

loco - what's the problem with woman ministers?

[columbusdude82]

loco - what's the problem with woman ministers?

I refer you to 1 Timothy Ch 12.

[loco]

loco, what did you feel about the part where they pray over a cardboard cut-out of the president?

Idolatry.

Also, what is your take on so-called "speaking in tongues"?

Same as that of Paul:

1 Corinthians 14:23
So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

[columbusdude82]

Forgive my ignorance, here, but isn't "speaking in tongues" just babbling a bunch of noises without knowing what they mean?

I've seen some "speaking in tongues" action on religious broadcasting on TV, and it's never like they speak Spanish, or German, or Aramaic, or Greek, or Chinese, or Russian. It's just babbling... It doesn't even remotely sound like any language.

[loco]

loco - what's the problem with woman ministers?

The Bible has guidelines on how men who are elected leaders of the church should be and how they should behave.  However, there are no guidelines on women church leaders.  Some Christians interpret this to mean that women shouldn't be church ministers.  Others don't believe this.  But many evangelical churches abstain from ordaining woman ministers just to be on the safe side. So Jesus Camp is not a good portrayal of the majority of evangelical Christians, and this is one of many reasons.

[loco]

Forgive my ignorance, here, but isn't "speaking in tongues" just babbling a bunch of noises without knowing what they mean?

I've seen some "speaking in tongues" action on religious broadcasting on TV, and it's never like they speak Spanish, or German, or Aramaic, or Greek, or Chinese, or Russian. It's just babbling... It doesn't even remotely sound like any language.

Yes.  It's a misunderstanding of the Bible.  At the feast of Pentecost, when the apostles first spoke in tongues, those tongues were human languages, not babbling.  Pentecostals misinterpret this, hence the babbling.  If you read 1st and 2nd Corinthians, you'll see that Paul tried to explain this to Pentecostal like churches of the first century in Greece.  The movement seems to have died only to re-surface in the 1700s.

[Straw Man]

The Bible has guidelines on how men who are elected leaders of the church should be and how they should behave.  However, there are no guidelines on women church leaders.  Some Christians interpret this to mean that women shouldn't be church ministers.  Others don't believe this.  But many evangelical churches abstain from ordaining woman ministers just to be on the safe side. So Jesus Camp is not a good portrayal of the majority of evangelical Christians, and this is one of many reasons.

just to be on the safe side?

seriously don't you think a bunch of men just thought up this stupid rule?

Is the problem the absence of a penis or just the presence of that dirty vagina?

[loco]

just to be on the safe side?

seriously don't you think a bunch of men just thought up this stupid rule?

Is the problem the absence of a penis or just the presence of that dirty vagina?

What rule?  I don't think that it's explicitly stated in the Bible that there shouldn't be woman ministers and personally I don't have a problem with it.

[columbusdude82]

Yes.  It's a misunderstanding of the Bible.  At the feast of Pentecost, when the apostles first spoke in tongues, those tongues were human languages, not babbling.  Pentecostals misinterpret this, hence the babbling.  If you read 1st and 2nd Corinthians, you'll see that Paul tried to explain this to Pentecostal like churches of the first century in Greece.  The movement seems to have died only to re-surface in the 1700s.

PPHHHHEEEWWWWWW

For a second there, I thought you were one of those people who stand up in church and start jumping around and yelling CHAMMALLAKEIILOOKUUTAA GARRABANOOOOTAHITTTTAAAA A..." thinking the Holy Spirit is talking through them...

[loco]

PPHHHHEEEWWWWWW

For a second there, I thought you were one of those people who stand up in church and start jumping around and yelling CHAMMALLAKEIILOOKUUTAA GARRABANOOOOTAHITTTTAAAA A..." thinking the Holy Spirit is talking through them...

No, I'm not one of them, but I have attended their churches before.  So Jesus Camp was no shock to me.  BTW, I believe it was in the 80s the Catholic Church lost many members to the Pentecostal church because these people wanted to "feel the power of the Holy Spirit".  So the Roman Catholic church started their own charismatic movement very similar to the Pentecostal church for those Catholics who wished to worship God in that manner.

[Straw Man]

What rule?  I don't think that it's explicitly stated in the Bible that there shouldn't be woman ministers and personally I don't have a problem with it.

you wrote guideline - I wrote rule

You knew what I meant right?

[loco]

you wrote guideline - I wrote rule

You knew what I meant right?

Wrong.  There is neither rule nor guideline in the Bible, that I'm aware of, that says that women should not be pastors, deacons or elders of the church.  The Bible simply is silent on that as far as I know.  The guidelines I was talking about are specifically on how men who are pastors, deacons or elders of the church should behave, but none of those guidelines state that women shouldn't be pastors, deacons or elders of the church.

Personally, I don't hear evangelical men today say woman pastors are not Biblical.  It is evangelical women who I hear say that they do not want another woman leading their church.  They believe that is not Biblical.

Keep in mind that we are talking about pastors, deacons and elders of the church.  The woman on Jesus Camp seems to be filling the role of a pastor.  Nobody that I'm aware of has a problem with woman evangelists, woman Sunday school teachers and woman missionaries.  One of the greatest foreign missionaries was a Southern Baptist woman, Lottie Moon.

[columbusdude82]

Wrong.  There is neither rule nor guideline in the Bible, that I'm aware of, that says that women should not be pastors, deacons or elders of the church.  The Bible simply is silent on that as far as I know. 

What about "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over men. She must be silent." ?

[Straw Man]

Wrong.  There is neither rule nor guideline in the Bible, that I'm aware of, that says that women should not be pastors, deacons or elders of the church.  The Bible simply is silent on that as far as I know.  The guidelines I was talking about are specifically on how men who are pastors, deacons or elders of the church should behave, but none of those guidelines state that women shouldn't be pastors, deacons or elders of the church.

Personally, I don't hear evangelical men today say woman pastors are not Biblical.  It is evangelical women who I hear say that they do not want another woman leading their church.  They believe that is not Biblical.

Keep in mind that we are talking about pastors, deacons and elders of the church.  The woman on Jesus Camp seems to be filling the role of a pastor.  Nobody that I'm aware of has a problem with woman evangelists, woman Sunday school teachers and woman missionaries.  One of the greatest foreign missionaries was a Southern Baptist woman, Lottie Moon.

ok - I guess I missed that in your first answer.  What you're saying is that there are guidelines for MEN but since their are no guidelines for women and/since the guidelines (whatever those are) only mentions MEN some of your christian bretheren interepret that to mean that woman should not be pastors, elders, etc... and they make this assumption JUST TO PLAY IT SAFE and I suppose not piss off God.

[loco]

What about "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over men. She must be silent." ?

That is directed at the women of the churches of Corinth and Ephesus at a specific time for specific a reason.  Paul would not allow women to lead in the Ephesian and Corinthian churches because of the Gnostic threat.  Paul's letters show that the Gnostic movement, the ancient equivalent of the modern "New Age movement", was being mixed with Christianity in those churches by some women. 

There are other letters Paul wrote where he says everyone in the church must serve and contribute to the church and to the Gospel.  There are passages that show Paul's estimation of specific women in his letters to the Romans and the Philippians. How can women evangelize, teach, toil at his side, exercise discipleship, manage churches, and host house churches without speaking?

[loco]

Tre,
Sorry!  I know your thread is about Jesus Camp and not about woman pastors.

[columbusdude82]

That is directed at the women of the churches of Corinth and Ephesus at a specific time for specific a reason.  Paul would not allow women to lead in the Ephesian and Corinthian churches because of the Gnostic threat.  Paul's letters show that the Gnostic movement, the ancient equivalent of the modern "New Age movement", was being mixed with Christianity in those churches by some women. 

There are other letters Paul wrote where he says everyone in the church must serve and contribute to the church and to the Gospel.  There are passages that show Paul's estimation of specific women in his letters to the Romans and the Philippians. How can women evangelize, teach, toil at his side, exercise discipleship, manage churches, and host house churches without speaking?

I see your point, loco. A similar point was also made by Bart Ehrman in his "Peter, Paul, and Mary Magdalene." (It's a really neat and eye-opening book, by the way.)

Ehrman also notes the distinction between Pauline and Deutero-Pauline epistles: scholars analyzing the early Greek manuscripts for language, style, and content make a distinction between the Pauline epistles, which Paul wrote himself no doubt, and the Deutero-Pauline, which are different, and which he either dictated or delegated to an assistant, or were written by someone else completely and passed off in Paul's name (which isn't a rare occurrence in the world of early Christian writings).

There's some neat evidence he shows for this too.

[loco]

I see your point, loco. A similar point was also made by Bart Ehrman in his "Peter, Paul, and Mary Magdalene." (It's a really neat and eye-opening book, by the way.)

Ehrman also notes the distinction between Pauline and Deutero-Pauline epistles: scholars analyzing the early Greek manuscripts for language, style, and content make a distinction between the Pauline epistles, which Paul wrote himself no doubt, and the Deutero-Pauline, which are different, and which he either dictated or delegated to an assistant, or were written by someone else completely and passed off in Paul's name (which isn't a rare occurrence in the world of early Christian writings).

There's some neat evidence he shows for this too.

Bart Ehrman is a New Testament scholar and an expert on early Christianity, but I disagree with him about the part that Paul did not write some of those letters in the NT, and I disagree with him on many other things.  He used to be a Christian and now he claims to be agnostic.  Many New Testament scholars and experts on early Christianity disagree with him too.  But he knows his stuff well and if he continues his research, I wouldn't be surprised if he eventually ends up coming back to Christianity.