ATT: Tim Fogarty.... Bodybuilder Health?

[The Luke]

This request goes out to iron historian Tim Fogarty...


Tim,

I would be very interested (as I'm sure many others would) in a statistical analysis of the health of former top level bodybuilders (steroid users).

I reckon the best way to do it would be to collate data on those who have competed in the Mr Olympia contest, perhaps with subdivisions by decade...

1950s-testosterone
1960s-low dose roids
1970s-low to heavy dose roids
1980s-heavy roid cycles, thyroid meds
1990s-heavy roid cycles, thyroid meds and GH;
2000s-heavy roid cycles, thyroid meds, GH and insulin

I believe there would be sufficient sample size in such an analysis to compare probb health with that of a similar demographic cross-section of the general population... although perhaps not sufficient data to infer statistical significance to the results and/or trends revealed.

Perhaps a similar study of NPC level pro-hopefuls would be more enlightening of the health hazards associated with chemical bodybuilding (as nowadays only those with a high tolerance make it to the pro ranks). But presumably data would be harder to come by.

Tim, you are the only person I can think of with sufficient resources/databases to undertake such an analysis... at the very least we could probably collate the data for the top Olympians.

Even if you're not interested I'd be eager to hear your thoughts on this subject.


The Luke

[The Master]

Larry Scott = still doing fine.

[slaveboy1980]

Larry Scott = still doing fine.

well, fine is a relative word.

[240 is Back]

we're all day-to-day.

chances are, when you factor in genetics and the fact taht bodybuilders do eat 20-30 years worht of clean food while joe sixpack pounds quarter pounders every day for lunch, it's probably not that different.  Granted, a vegan librarian will outlive andreas munzer most of the time.  But in the bigger scheme, we're all just carbon based miracles with an unknown expiration date.  The improved quality of life for those 30 years ON is probably worth more than an extra 5 years of crapping in a diaper in a nursing home as the sun sets.

[Stu]

we're all day-to-day.

chances are, when you factor in genetics and the fact taht bodybuilders do eat 20-30 years worht of clean food while joe sixpack pounds quarter pounders every day for lunch, it's probably not that different.  Granted, a vegan librarian will outlive andreas munzer most of the time.  But in the bigger scheme, we're all just carbon based miracles with an unknown expiration date.  The improved quality of life for those 30 years ON is probably worth more than an extra 5 years of crapping in a diaper in a nursing home as the sun sets.

arent high protein diets supposed to be bad for the kidneys...or something...?

[timfogarty]

over the years there have been many scientific studies comparing the rate of diseases in athletes who use steroids vs athletes who don't.   No statistical differences were found between the two groups.  no differences between the two groups for heart disease, liver diseases, or kidney disease.  however, most of the studies were done in the 80s and 90s.

but you want a study done on actual names competition bodybuilders.  that would be pretty difficult to do because it is a statistically small and not necessarily representative group, plus they're not going to share their medical records with you.

another problem with such a study is that top level competition athletes in all sports often use other drugs to get that winning edge.  stimulants are probably a bigger problem in the sports world than are steroids.   Amphetamines, when ephedra just isn't enough!

while any drug can be abused, there is plenty of evidence that anabolic steroids can be used safely.  you just have to monitor your body and be willing to back off when your body says so.   The most dangerous side effect from large doses of anabolic steroids is high blood pressure.  Long term high BP often leads to kidney failure.  So keep your blood pressure in check.   But you should also always be monitoring your cholesterol and triglycerides.   And if you're taking orals, monitor your liver enzymes.   

[The Luke]

Interesting points Tim...

I think a running tally (uncensored) of the health of the top level athletes would greatly help the sport, as open and honest discussion of the merits/drawbacks of steroids as a "lifestyle choice" is sorely overdue.

Bodybuilding is full of armchair gurus who claim steroids (and other bodybuilding drugs) are benign but neglect the importance of dose and duration in such an assertion... even arsenic is tolerable at low levels (Victorians often used it as a medicinal pick-me-up).
 
I had a discussion with a twentysomething recreational lifter only last week wherein he confided in me that he used steroids whenever he could buy them... his body, his choice as far as I was concerned. But the conversation took a decidedly disturbing turn when the discussion meandered to doses and duration: "Whatever my dealer tells me to take". His drug selection comprises "whatever's available" whether steroids or not... two months on dianabol; three months on thyroid medication... just crazy shit.

His response to the health issue was to dismiss all the casualties of chemical bodybuilding.

Flex Wheeler's removed kidneys?... "That was a rare genetic disorder, I read it in Flex magazine"
Tom Prince's kidney problems?... "Prince said that was due to Advil, I read the interview"
Valentino's arm abscesses?... "He has loads of scar tissue in his arms from overtraining"

Someone needs to put the record straight regarding the dangers of mega-dosing and the panoply of drug combinations used to achieve modern physiques. At the very least we should keep a running tally on former Olympia competitors.



The Luke

[timfogarty]

Someone needs to put the record straight regarding the dangers of mega-dosing and the panoply of drug combinations used to achieve modern physiques.

there is an easy solution:  allow medical doctors to prescribe anabolic steroids for cosmetic and performance enhancing purposes.  the doctor would control your dose and make sure you're being monitored.

[dr.chimps]

there is an easy solution:  allow medical doctors to prescribe anabolic steroids for cosmetic and performance enhancing purposes.  the doctor would control your dose and make sure you're being monitored.

Hmm. The first line of the Hippocratic oath 'do no harm' could not be guaranteed, tho.

[njflex]

there is an easy solution:  allow medical doctors to prescribe anabolic steroids for cosmetic and performance enhancing purposes.  the doctor would control your dose and make sure you're being monitored.

THEN where does this leave the black market?

[timfogarty]

Hmm. The first line of the Hippocratic oath 'do no harm' could not be guaranteed, tho.

and cosmetic surgery is any better?   just at my gym, there are many examples of both men and women with bad face lifts, botox, lip injections, etc.

[The Luke]

More importantly than any of these considerations is the mass of valuable data that is being lost.

Could there be a certain stack, or alternating cycle of steroids that reduced the risks associated with heavy AAS usage? If there was we'd never know because medical researchers don't have access to the bodybuilding community.

Similarly there are several diet and drug tweaks that can potentiate the effects of steroids (and training for that matter). I've helped several competitors (both natural and drug-assisted) and nearly always gotten new growth from long-term plateaued athletes (a few dieting athletes were too close to competition to gain any muscle, but I always managed to improve their conditioning).


If we tabulated the health profiles of all the top athletes we might well be able to do for steroid-usage what Arthur Jones did for training science (ALL top natural bodybuilders train with something akin to the HIT protocol, not a volume trainer in the bunch).

These questions need answering... Tim Fogarty is the only person I can think of qualified to tabulate th necessary data.


The Luke 

[timfogarty]

These questions need answering... Tim Fogarty is the only person I can think of qualified to tabulate th necessary data.

sure, find me a grant


but I'll tell you what I'd really like a grant for:  to do a double blind study on all the top supplements to prove once and for all whether they're snake oil


but that would be rather expensive, so I'd settle for a grant to go to Europe to go look through all the Health and Strength from the 40s-80s to find more contest info for musclememory

[The Luke]

Tim,

Could you list all the top 10 Olympians from say, 1990 till today and then fill in any relevant health information?

For example:

Flex Wheeler ...lost both kidneys, kidney transplant, synthol spreading through arms and shoulders

Nasser El Sonbaty ...surgery to remove major lipoma growths and infected tissue in deltoids, synthol spreading through arms

Dorian Yates ...partially torn quad, torn bicep

Don Long ...lost both kidneys, kidney transplant

Tom Prince ...kidney damage, pulverised shoulder joint

...and these are just the guys I know of off the top of my head.



Forget the "Bodybuilding Dead Pool" this is the information people need... until someone makes a list including those who have left the limelight (Eduardo Kawak etc) then we can't really assess whether these guys are exceptions to the rule or a foretaste of what is to come for todays mega-dosing competitors.


The Luke

[Matt C]

but I'll tell you what I'd really like a grant for:  to do a double blind study on all the top supplements to prove once and for all whether they're snake oil

Do you think they are?

[timfogarty]

Tim, Could you list all the top 10 Olympians from say, 1990 till today and then fill in any relevant health information?

No, I cannot.  First you seem to know more about them than I.  But all you know is what is rumored.  Without them confiding their medical history to me, it would only remain rumors.  And I'm not on any of their Fav-5.  (not even the one's I've..dated)

Also, such information would be meaningless without also knowing what recreational drugs they also used.  Then we'd need to compare the info to world class athletes in other sports.

If you wanted to rank the risks of all the performance enhancing drugs that world class athletes use, including diuretics, thyroid drugs, stimulants, pain killers, EPO, corticosteroids, GH, insulin, and anabolic steroids, anabolic steroids would be pretty low on the list.

[The Luke]

MattC,

A little off topic, but I'll bite on this one...
I've put ten pounds (lean pounds) on an experienced natural bodybuilder in six weeks just by changing a few staple foods and adding a few specialised lipids to the diet. If any supplement could do that they'd dedicate a whole issue of FLEX to announcing the news!

Supplements are bunkum as the vast majority of bodybuilders are attempting to supplement their nutritionally inadequate diet.

Creatine works... but only to hydrate the muscles, you still have to earn any muscle you build.
ZMA works... but only in stressed athletes who'd probably do better with some sleep and relaxation.
Whey protein works... but unless you're paying a hundred dollars a kilo (2 lb tub) you're not using the same stuff that did so well in the scientific literature (ie: cold-processed high grade membrane filtered non-denatured whey with intact peptide microfractions).

Most of the rest are much less successful than the wholefood alternative. Homemade fish paste works better than most commercially available wheys for example.


The Luke

[timfogarty]

MattC,
A little off topic, but I'll bite on this one...

I think MattC was being sarcastic, as he well knows my point of view on the subject

I've put ten pounds (lean pounds) on an experienced natural bodybuilder in six weeks just by changing a few staple foods and adding a few specialised lipids to the diet. If any supplement could do that they'd dedicate a whole issue of FLEX to announcing the news!

yes, but you were able to make those gains because you weren't eating right to begin with.  Now that you are, you can't do it again and gain another 10 pounds.

[Matt C]

Yes, I'm pretty sure I know how you feel about supplements, but you worded it as if you have some doubt, stating that you would prove "whether" they are snake oil, as if you think there is some chance they may not be.  Whereas if you had not said "whether" it would appear that you have absolutely no doubt.  So I'm wondering whether or not you have any doubt that they are snake oil or not?

[dr.chimps]

and cosmetic surgery is any better?   just at my gym, there are many examples of both men and women with bad face lifts, botox, lip injections, etc.

Good point. I guess once you're on the slippery slope you'd best just hang on.

[Matt C]

Good point. I guess once you're on the slippery slope you'd best just hang on.

I think there is a point where you can definitively draw a line - if you are a good psychological candidate for cosmetic surgery, there is no "slippery slope" to speak of.  I am a good psychological candidate both for the use of steroids and for plastic surgery for my nose.  Therefore, that would be alright for me to do.  Plastic surgery is generally safe and mostly psychologically damaging to those who aren't mentally prepared for it.

[The Luke]

yes, but you were able to make those gains because you weren't eating right to begin with.  Now that you are, you can't do it again and gain another 10 pounds.

...very true.

The secret is knowing where the shortfalls are in the diets of the athletes/competitors I help.
If you get a long term bodybuilding vegan who's willing to change his sensibilities you can work wonders, as much as 30 lbs of muscle in six months or so.

My progress has slowed significantly in recent years, but I've slightly surpassed the predicted FFMI for my wrist; ankle and height measurements (which is the theoretical hypertrophy ceiling for naturals), every pound I gain from here on out is absolutely monumental.


The Luke

[dr.chimps]

I think there is a point where you can definitively draw a line - if you are a good psychological candidate for cosmetic surgery, there is no "slippery slope" to speak of.  I am a good psychological candidate both for the use of steroids and for plastic surgery for my nose.  Therefore, that would be alright for me to do.  Plastic surgery is generally safe and mostly psychologically damaging to those who aren't mentally prepared for it.

Another good point. Goes a way to explaining the ubiquity of breast implants. 

[timfogarty]

So I'm wondering whether or not you have any doubt that they are snake oil or not?

I was proposing a scientific study.  Such studies shouldn't have any (declared) preconceived opinions.

[timfogarty]

Plastic surgery is generally safe and mostly psychologically damaging to those who aren't mentally prepared for it.

I wasn't talking about psychological damage, but physical damage.   many of the people at my gym (Gold's Hollywood) who have had plastic surgery simply had too much.   Either too many repeated surgeries, or tried to do too much at once.  They look plastic or even freaky.  Even just the ones who do botox.  Fine, you look great until you try to smile or talk.   Many plastic surgeons violate the Hippocratic Oath.