Author Topic: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!  (Read 13532 times)

Eldon

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #100 on: January 23, 2008, 09:59:31 AM »
Who gives to charity?
By John Stossel

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/JohnStossel/2006/12/06/who_gives_to_charity


Americans are pretty generous. Three-quarters of American families give to charity -- and those who do, give an average of $1,800. Of course that means one-quarter of us don't give at all. What distinguishes those who give from those who don't? It turns out there are many myths about that.

To test them, ABC's "20/20" went to Sioux Falls, S.D., and San Francisco. We asked the Salvation Army to set up buckets at their busiest locations in both cities. Which bucket would get more money? I'll get to that in a minute.
 San Francisco and Sioux Falls are different in some important ways. Sioux Falls is small and rural, and more than half the people go to church every week.

San Francisco is a much bigger and richer city, and relatively few people attend church. It is also known as a very liberal place, and since liberals are said to "care more" about the poor, you might assume people in San Francisco would give a lot.

But the idea that liberals give more is a myth. Of the top 25 states where people give an above-average percentage of their income, all but one (Maryland) were red -- conservative -- states in the last presidential election.


"When you look at the data," says Syracuse University professor Arthur Brooks, "it turns out the conservatives give about 30 percent more. And incidentally, conservative-headed families make slightly less money."

 Researching his book, "Who Really Cares", Brooks found that the conservative/liberal difference goes beyond money:

"The people who give one thing tend to be the people who give everything in America. You find that people who believe it's the government's job to make incomes more equal, are far less likely to give their money away."

Conservatives are even 18 percent more likely to donate blood.


The second myth is that people with the most money are the most generous. But while the rich give more in total dollars, low-income people give almost 30 percent more as a share of their income.

Says Brooks: "The most charitable people in America today are the working poor."

We saw that in Sioux Falls, S.D. The workers at the meat packing plant make about $35,000, yet the Sioux Falls United Way says it gets more contributions of over $500 from employees there than anywhere else. continued...

stormshadow

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #101 on: January 23, 2008, 10:02:01 AM »


Hold youre money tight storm.......Youre faith in the current system will fail you soon.
Socialism has been proven not to work already.   Dictatorships do not work.  Democracy will fail as a young concept,also.

Dont assume Im poor, my friend...Im not. ;)

Awesome job of creating a strawman argument.

I never said you were poor, and I never said I  have faith in "the current system"  I also never said anything about "democracy"

You are correct, Democracy will fail.  That is why the founding fathers very clearly distinguished between a Democracy and a Constitutional Republic.

Again, to the "greedy" Socialist that is quick to demand MY MONEY and decide how it is spent...

How much have you donated to charity?  

You "seem" concerned with Healthcare for all, so Surely you donate your own money to help those less fortunate...

You are quick to have my money looted for your causes, so I ask how much do you donate to support your own Ideals?

Decker

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #102 on: January 23, 2008, 10:30:46 AM »
Decker,

The principles of Socialism, and redistribution of wealth DO NOT WORK and CANNOT WORK.  They violate mans basic motive to produce.

Man is motivated by personal profit - Period.

Our constitutional Republic was designed to protect mans profit from theft by lies or force.

What you encourage is legalized theft by government in the name of Healthcare, Children's education, Fair wages, (insert your cause here)

The problems we have with our system stem from the power of federal government being controlled by corporations.  Giving government more power only makes it worse = more erosion of liberty. 

Smaller government and more personal responsibility - EACH PERSON PROVIDES FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES.  PRIVATE CHARITY CAN TAKE CARE OF THE REST.

It is MY CHOICE to help a family with MY MONEY.


I disagree to the extent that my personal interests cannot come to fruition on an island.  I am part of a society....a society that needs organization and support--monetary and otherwise.  My society makes my individual success possible:  I didn't build the roads, design the internet, teach myself my craft, grow my own food, set up my own telephone service, print my own money etc.

Calling taxation theft is just a denial of the basic fact that organized society must be tended to. 

What the government gave the corporations, it can take away.  We The People are the government and we can remove the personhood status of corporations and such.

It is your money but you must acknowledge the costs of government and pay your taxes for its support.

Bodvar

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #103 on: January 23, 2008, 10:49:52 AM »
I'm sorry about that.
The trust fund is very real.  It contains treasury notes.  They must be repaid under law.  If that is a hoax, then Greenspan and Reagan (if he were alive) would be charged with defrauding the gov.  Back in the mid 80's Greenspan advised Reagan to raise the payroll tax to fund the babyboomer retirements down the road.  If the trust fund was an accounting trick then that's a problem.  But seriously, this is why Gore introduced the 'lockbox' idea so that payroll tax revenue would not be used as general tax revenue.
Post the web page where SSA says that it's going bankrupt.  What happened is that Bush and his privatizers infested SSA and put in veiled warnings to make privatization a 'sound' option for the pending 'crisis'.No.  Social insurance means spreading the risk over the entire population.  What risk?  Abject poverty in one's golden years.  Privatization is just another name for an IRA.  There's no shared risk there.
Yes, the market has self-correcting features.  I think we are in agreement on this.  The market is moderated to the extent that the government effectuates fairness in bargaining--anti-trust laws and whatnot.  When the Savings and Loan industry was deregulated it slid into corruption resulting in a 1/2 trillion tab picked up by the taxpayers.  When Congress deregulated the Cable TV industry in '84 monopolies arose and service went in the crapper.  We need government acting as the referee to these market games.
If our free market solutions to healthcare are so innovative and wonderful, why are 40+ million people uninsured?  Why are businesses scrapping their company coverage or offering benefits that are simply unaffordable.  Why is the US ranked behind Britain and Canada and almost any other UHC country in terms of cost and efficacy?

B/c the free market is failing to provide adequate healthcare, that's why.

Isn't the AMA against UHC as well?

Sorry, I don't have the technological savvy to do that line-by-line quote thing.

Treasury notes that the government has to pay itself? Who is going to enforce that? Do you really think the government is going to prosecute itself if it doesn't pay its IOU's? I'm not holding my breath for that one.

As for the site that says that SS is going bankrupt here you go http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/expectmore/summary/10008001.2006.html
Notice where it says "in 2042 will be unable to make scheduled benefit payments on a timely basis", this means that that Social Securities' debts will exceed its assets, that's also known as bankruptcy.

What is this obsession with "shared risk"? Why do I have to be responsible for someone else's bad decisions? If you pissed away your money all your life, why the hell should I bail you out?

The problem with Social Security is it is a negative incentive for people. They are less likely to save their money for retirement because the government is promising to take care of them in retirement, but it more than likely won't. If people had an option to invest their payroll taxes in a 401(k) type program or an IRA or something, then we'd already be better off. But big government people don't even want to give us that choice.

As far as the S&L scandal, I don't really know enough about it to debate it.

The problem with the 40 million numbers is that it includes illegal aliens that shouldn't even be here, and it doesn't take into consideration people that CHOOSE not to get medical insurance. A lot of young healthy people opt not to cover themselves for whatever reason. This is their choice. The left portrays these 40 million people as victims that can't afford medical insurance which is pretty dishonest.

Another thing is NOBODY in America is denied medical treatment. ER's, by law, have to treat you whether you can pay or not.

American health care is more expensive than the UK or Canada because it is BETTER. Tell me, why is it that cancer survival rates in the US are far better than in Canada or the UK? It's because there is virtually no wait for cancer treatment in the US. In Canada and the UK people often have to wait for months to get life saving treatment because of the waiting lists.

The problem with the US health care system is that the government is TOO involved. For example if I want to get private health insurance I can't pick and choose what kind of treatment I want covered. I have to get everything or nothing. Why for example, would a 25 year old health male need coverage for heart disease related treatment? Why would a 55 year old woman need coverage for pregnancy related expenses? It's silly but because the government mandates these things our premiums are unnecessarily high. We can't even buy insurance from other states, because our wonderful government forbids it.

Don't even get me started about malpractice lawyers do to the price of medical coverage.

More government control would just makes things worse, here are some of my idea's to fix the system:
1. Allow more choices and competition when it comes to medical coverage.
2. Serious tort reform on the part of malpractice lawyer who are doing serious damage to our medical community
3. I'd even be up to the idea of mandating a disaster insurance, kind of like we have for automobiles.

The AMA is composed of a bunch of doctors looking out for their own interest by using the government to squash any competition they might experience. But I do agree with them on the UHC issue. If you look at programs like Medicaid and Medicare, it is very hard for doctors to get paid for their services. This is why many practices don't accept M&M, it costs lots of man hours to deal with the bloated bureaucracy and they rarely if ever pay 100%. You just need to look at goverment health services like M&M and the Veterans Hospital system and how much they SUCK, to see how bad UHC will be for the rest of us.

But really I'm wasting my energy, UHC is going to be a reality because that's what the average voter today wants. So your going to get your way Decker. Hope you take real good care of your health in the future.


Bodvar

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #104 on: January 23, 2008, 10:56:35 AM »
What the government gave the corporations, it can take away.  We The People are the government and we can remove the personhood status of corporations and such.

What does the government "give" corporations? More like what the corporations "give" the government.

The personhood of the corporations? What does that even mean? Does that mean if you don't like a company you can punish it at will?

I'm sorry if I had a company and people like you were in charge, I'd leave and take my tax revenues and jobs with me. Which is what will happen.

The thing is you probably think your pro-job. But the thing is that you can't be pro-job and anti-business at the same time.

240 is Back

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #105 on: January 23, 2008, 10:59:45 AM »
What does the government "give" corporations?

Tax breaks.  You know that record-setting year the oil companies all had?  Thank you tax breaks!

More like what the corporations "give" the government.

Campaign donations - donations in large amounts, as well as organized maximum number amounts from all members of a firm.

Bodvar

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #106 on: January 23, 2008, 11:39:01 AM »
Tax breaks.  You know that record-setting year the oil companies all had?  Thank you tax breaks!

Campaign donations - donations in large amounts, as well as organized maximum number amounts from all members of a firm.

So taking less money away from a company is the same as giving them money? The record setting year the oil companies had was due to the record high prices of oil. The higher the oil prices the higher the profit due to profit margins. Did you know the government makes much more money off a gallon of gas than the oil companies do?

Who do you think owns these oil companies? They are publicly traded companies, they are owned by the public. If you have any kind of mutual fund or any kind of program that deals with stocks, more than likely you own some stock in an oil company. If the company makes a profit, then they pay dividends to the stockholders. So record profits for oil companies are good!

Your second sentence doesn't make any sense, try rewording it.


240 is Back

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #107 on: January 23, 2008, 11:52:43 AM »
So taking less money away from a company is the same as giving them money? The record setting year the oil companies had was due to the record high prices of oil. The higher the oil prices the higher the profit due to profit margins. Did you know the government makes much more money off a gallon of gas than the oil companies do?

Who do you think owns these oil companies? They are publicly traded companies, they are owned by the public. If you have any kind of mutual fund or any kind of program that deals with stocks, more than likely you own some stock in an oil company. If the company makes a profit, then they pay dividends to the stockholders. So record profits for oil companies are good!

Your second sentence doesn't make any sense, try rewording it.

I feel like I'm arguing with a 6th grade social studies book.

Good day, sir.

Bodvar

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #108 on: January 23, 2008, 11:55:37 AM »
I feel like I'm arguing with a 6th grade social studies book.

Good day, sir.

Just because something is simple doesn't mean it's not true.

I didn't think the great 240 is Back would give up so easily.

240 is Back

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #109 on: January 23, 2008, 12:02:19 PM »
Just because something is simple doesn't mean it's not true.

I didn't think the great 240 is Back would give up so easily.

Dude.

Tax breaks to the oil companies mean we're not taxing them as much.

This means we need to borrow more $ to fund this war.

A couple hundred billion more from Exoon in 2006 means a couple billion less we're paying interest on chinese lended cash.

Decker

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #110 on: January 23, 2008, 12:17:26 PM »

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Treasury notes that the government has to pay itself? Who is going to enforce that? Do you really think the government is going to prosecute itself if it doesn't pay its IOU's? I'm not holding my breath for that one.
If the gov. cannot satisfy the “full faith and credit” provision in the T-bills that will mean one thing—the US gov. has dissolved.  I don’t see that happening.

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As for the site that says that SS is going bankrupt here you go http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/expectmore/summary/10008001.2006.html
Notice where it says "in 2042 will be unable to make scheduled benefit payments on a timely basis", this means that that Social Securities' debts will exceed its assets, that's also known as bankruptcy.
That doesn’t mean bankruptcy.  It just means that the pay-as-you-go system will present a little shortfall.  Taxes will be raised or benefits will be cut or the normal retirement age will be raised.
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What is this obsession with "shared risk"? Why do I have to be responsible for someone else's bad decisions? If you pissed away your money all your life, why the hell should I bail you out?
My obsession is this:  nobody and I mean nobody can guarantee a life devoid of disaster and when it does strike, b/c it will, we do not want our people destitute and in the street.

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The problem with Social Security is it is a negative incentive for people. They are less likely to save their money for retirement because the government is promising to take care of them in retirement, but it more than likely won't. If people had an option to invest their payroll taxes in a 401(k) type program or an IRA or something, then we'd already be better off. But big government people don't even want to give us that choice.
I disagree.  People are as avaricious as ever and will seek to maximize their wealth in almost any situation.

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...Another thing is NOBODY in America is denied medical treatment. ER's, by law, have to treat you whether you can pay or not.
Nobody in America is denied EMERGENCY treatment.  By that time it’s too late in terms of mortality and expense to be considered efficient.  The US has horrible preventive medical care.

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American health care is more expensive than the UK or Canada because it is BETTER. Tell me, why is it that cancer survival rates in the US are far better than in Canada or the UK? It's because there is virtually no wait for cancer treatment in the US. In Canada and the UK people often have to wait for months to get life saving treatment because of the waiting lists.
The cancer survival rates are roughly the same but the UK gets the job done at a much cheaper cost.

If the long long waiting lists are so bad why do almost no Canadians cross the border for the US's superior care?  Why did private insurance companies give up on policies for Canadians seeking care that would kick in if the wait for treatment was over 30 days?

"Only 90 of 18,000 respondents to the 1996 Canadian NPHS indicated that they had received health care in the United States during the previous twelve months, and only twenty indicated that they had gone to the United States expressly for the purpose of getting that care."  http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/21/3/19?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=snow&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT#R13

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The problem with the US health care system is that the government is TOO involved. For example if I want to get private health insurance I can't pick and choose what kind of treatment I want covered. I have to get everything or nothing. Why for example, would a 25 year old health male need coverage for heart disease related treatment? Why would a 55 year old woman need coverage for pregnancy related expenses? It's silly but because the government mandates these things our premiums are unnecessarily high. We can't even buy insurance from other states, because our wonderful government forbids it.
You would have to ask the private insurer about that one.  The essence of insurance is to spread around the costs so that no one person or age group takes the big hit when it happens.
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Don't even get me started about malpractice lawyers do to the price of medical coverage.

More government control would just makes things worse, here are some of my idea's to fix the system:
1. Allow more choices and competition when it comes to medical coverage.
2. Serious tort reform on the part of malpractice lawyer who are doing serious damage to our medical community
3. I'd even be up to the idea of mandating a disaster insurance, kind of like we have for automobiles.

Serious tort reform?  How about asking the doctors to stop cutting off the wrong damn leg?  Malpractice means practice that falls below the accepted norm.  How would you like your damages capped at $50,000 knowing that your doctor amputated the wrong arm or took out the wrong kidney?



Bodvar

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #111 on: January 23, 2008, 12:20:31 PM »
Dude.

Tax breaks to the oil companies mean we're not taxing them as much.

This means we need to borrow more $ to fund this war.

A couple hundred billion more from Exoon in 2006 means a couple billion less we're paying interest on chinese lended cash.

The US government takes almost 3 trillion dollars a year in revenue. The war has cost what, 500 billion over about 5 years? 100 billion a year on average. With an average of about 2.5 trillion dollars over that period of time the war has cost us on average about 4% of the US annual budget. It's really not straining us that much financially. I'm not even comparing the cost of the war to the GDP which is over 10 trillion dollars.

We need to borrow money because the US government is run by people spend money like trophy wives with platinum credit cards  :)

But don't worry we're taxing the crap out of the oil companies. The US capital gains tax is one of the highest in the western world, and state and local government take about 30-50 cents per gallon of gas on average, whereas the oil companies take about 7-8 cents.

Soon Hillary will be President and she'll "take those profits away from the oil companies" so it doesn't matter anyway.

Bodvar

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #112 on: January 23, 2008, 01:09:12 PM »
If the gov. cannot satisfy the “full faith and credit” provision in the T-bills that will mean one thing—the US gov. has dissolved.  I don’t see that happening.

The government may not dissolve, but the actions it will have to take in order to correct the problem will be very damaging to the US economy.

That doesn’t mean bankruptcy.  It just means that the pay-as-you-go system will present a little shortfall.  Taxes will be raised or benefits will be cut or the normal retirement age will be raised.My obsession is this:  nobody and I mean nobody can guarantee a life devoid of disaster and when it does strike, b/c it will, we do not want our people destitute and in the street.

Taxes raised? Benefits cut? Retirement age increased? What a horrible retirement plan system. America is a very generous nation and it will take care of people that cannot take care of themselves. But what I don't like is charity at gun point.

The raiding of the trust fund is a big deal. The whole point of the trust funds is that they collect interest over the years. Since the money is spent as soon as it comes in, it doesn't have a chance to grow. This is like cleaning out your IRA every year and leaving yourself IOU's, it's stupid.

I disagree.  People are as avaricious as ever and will seek to maximize their wealth in almost any situation.
Nobody in America is denied EMERGENCY treatment.  By that time it’s too late in terms of mortality and expense to be considered efficient.  The US has horrible preventive medical care.
The cancer survival rates are roughly the same but the UK gets the job done at a much cheaper cost.

If the long long waiting lists are so bad why do almost no Canadians cross the border for the US's superior care?  Why did private insurance companies give up on policies for Canadians seeking care that would kick in if the wait for treatment was over 30 days?

Look at the American saving rate, it's in the negative, has been for years. Americans spend more than they earn, it's a huge problem and the fake promise of a retirement safety net is part of the problem, not the solution.

Preventive medical care is a whole other issue, America doesn't have a preventive medical care plan, they only deal with health when something goes wrong and often it is too late. We need to figure out a way to reward healthy behavior in this country, in the long run it will save us lots of cash.

Private insurance companies in Canada have been illegal until recently. In most countries that have UHC we're seeing an increase in demand for private health care coverage because the government isn't doing it's job. So people there end up not only paying high taxes for the UHC, but they have to pay for private insurance on top of it, and it hurts the poor the most because they can't afford private insurance. It's just a huge mess.

Long waiting lines in Canada are well documented and no secret.

"Only 90 of 18,000 respondents to the 1996 Canadian NPHS indicated that they had received health care in the United States during the previous twelve months, and only twenty indicated that they had gone to the United States expressly for the purpose of getting that care."  http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/21/3/19?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=snow&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT#R13
You would have to ask the private insurer about that one.  The essence of insurance is to spread around the costs so that no one person or age group takes the big hit when it happens.

One problem with that survey, it is ILLEGAL for Canadians to cross the border for medical care. Of course people aren't going to admit it.

Serious tort reform?  How about asking the doctors to stop cutting off the wrong damn leg?  Malpractice means practice that falls below the accepted norm.  How would you like your damages capped at $50,000 knowing that your doctor amputated the wrong arm or took out the wrong kidney?

What a straw man argument. Nobody is calling for capping a malpractice suit for a mistaken amputation at $50,000.

Malpractice suits in this country is out of control. I'll give you the example of John Edwards. He suit doctors on behalf of parents of children with Cerebral Palsy. His argument was that because the doctors didn't perform a cesarean section the children developed the disease.

Edwards and his clients made a fortune off this case, only problem was that this was proven to be false. There is no link between cesarean sections and Cerebral Palsy. But the damage was done, many more Cesarean sections are performed today because of that case, many of them unnecessary, even though the science vindicated the doctors. Not only that but the Cesarean section is serious surgery and can be fatal.

Cases like this happen all the time and it causes our health care costs to go up due to unnecessary medical work done to cover doctors asses in case of lawsuits.

War-Horse

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #113 on: January 23, 2008, 02:25:34 PM »
Warhorse,

I love how Socialists such as yourself dance around the basic premise.  You will take pot shots by using terms like "greed" and "helping fellow man"

The problem with your thinking is that you have to STEAL from me to distribute to a cause that SOMEONE OTHER THAN ME deems necessary.

Yes Warhorse is fine with that. 8)



Do you not see the flaw with this?

No.....I made more money than you, so im entitled to kick you in the ribs. 8)



Do you not acknowledge that every man has the right to his property?

Yes.......................Until i need it more than you. :D

That was the point in the Revolution...  Life, Liberty, and Property

I guess that level of thinking - Personal Liberty, Personal Responsibility, Freedom to Succeed, Freedom to Fail is just outdated right?

And the reason that you say that Private Charity fails, is because Socialists are the most uncaring and ungiving people there are.

How much have you donated to charity this year? 

Oh thats right, government is supposed to take care of the needy so you don't have to part with YOUR MONEY.  Let's take from the RICH, as they have PLENTY...

I am close friends with several multi-millionaires and they are the most giving people I know.  What they do not do is get on TV and demand that someone else pays for a cause that they deem worthy.  If they support it, then they use their own money.


Oh geez i sound like limbaugh...



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Decker

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #114 on: January 23, 2008, 02:36:25 PM »

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The government may not dissolve, but the actions it will have to take in order to correct the problem will be very damaging to the US economy.
Maybe, maybe not.  I doubt it will seriously damage the economy….Paying down our debt may do wonders for the economy.

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Taxes raised? Benefits cut? Retirement age increased? What a horrible retirement plan system. America is a very generous nation and it will take care of people that cannot take care of themselves. But what I don't like is charity at gun point.
Taxes are taxes--don't be so histrionical and selfish.  Pay your damn taxes like everyone else.

Soc. Sec. is the single most successful gov. program in history.  It puts to shame any private enterprise re life insurance or retirement benefits (which are generally held under insurance contracts call group annuity contracts.).

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The raiding of the trust fund is a big deal. The whole point of the trust funds is that they collect interest over the years. Since the money is spent as soon as it comes in, it doesn't have a chance to grow. This is like cleaning out your IRA every year and leaving yourself IOU's, it's stupid.
T-bills are one of the most conservative investments out there.  The purpose is not to grow the money, the purpose is to preserve the existing amounts to fund social insurance benefits.  Growing wealth means growing risk and the SSA does not want to gamble with the benefits of others.
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Look at the American saving rate, it's in the negative, has been for years. Americans spend more than they earn, it's a huge problem and the fake promise of a retirement safety net is part of the problem, not the solution.
How is it a fake promise?

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Preventive medical care is a whole other issue, America doesn't have a preventive medical care plan, they only deal with health when something goes wrong and often it is too late. We need to figure out a way to reward healthy behavior in this country, in the long run it will save us lots of cash.
If you have health insurance, you have a preventive medical care plan.  If you do not have insurance, or are underinsured, you do not.

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Private insurance companies in Canada have been illegal until recently. In most countries that have UHC we're seeing an increase in demand for private health care coverage because the government isn't doing it's job. So people there end up not only paying high taxes for the UHC, but they have to pay for private insurance on top of it, and it hurts the poor the most because they can't afford private insurance. It's just a huge mess.
I wasn’t referring to private insurance companies in Canada:  “Some private insurance firms have expressed interest in offering policies that would provide service in the United States if one had to wait more than thirty days on a Canadian waiting list; however, there has been no apparent demand for such policies to date.”

How do you know that private health care coverage in UHC countries is increasing? 


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Long waiting lines in Canada are well documented and no secret.

One problem with that survey, it is ILLEGAL for Canadians to cross the border for medical care. Of course people aren't going to admit it.
Maybe there are long lines for some procedures.  A long line in Canada for treatment is better than no treatment in the US.  Some private insurance firms have expressed interest in offering policies that would provide service in the United States if one had to wait more than thirty days on a Canadian waiting list; however, there has been no apparent demand for such policies to date.

Can you show me the Canadian Statute that bars its citizens from going outside the country for treatment?

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What a straw man argument. Nobody is calling for capping a malpractice suit for a mistaken amputation at $50,000.

I didn't say anyone in particular is advocating  $50,000 cap, I just used it as an example.  The proposed federal cap is $250,000 by Bush.  What’s the difference between $250,000 and $50,000 when your talking about lifelong problems due to the incompetence of others?

It’s nothing.  Might as well be $5.
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Malpractice suits in this country is out of control. I'll give you the example of John Edwards. He suit doctors on behalf of parents of children with Cerebral Palsy. His argument was that because the doctors didn't perform a cesarean section the children developed the disease.

Edwards and his clients made a fortune off this case, only problem was that this was proven to be false. There is no link between cesarean sections and Cerebral Palsy. But the damage was done, many more Cesarean sections are performed today because of that case, many of them unnecessary, even though the science vindicated the doctors. Not only that but the Cesarean section is serious surgery and can be fatal.
So since the case was decided wrong, I take it the judgment was vacated and poor innocent doctors were made whole again?

I don't think you are giving a faithful recount of the case.

One case does not make the national malpractice situation out of control.  Like I said, you want malpractice cases to reduce in number, then start reducing the number of incompetent doctors.

Quote
Cases like this happen all the time and it causes our health care costs to go up due to unnecessary medical work done to cover doctors asses in case of lawsuits.

"The total cost of medical malpractice insurance is less than 2 percent of all U.S. health care spending. So how can such litigation be a serious threat to medical care in the first place?
Malpractice suit awards have declined
Granted, despite these other points, damage awards are at least a factor in rising premiums -- and damage awards are rising. According to Justice Department statistics, the typical (or median) damage award won by plaintiffs in medical malpractice suits increased from $253,000 in 1992, to $431,000 in 2001. (The statistics are based on civil trials conducted in the U.S.'s 75 largest counties.)"

I don't understand your point about unnecessary medical work and malpractice.


http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/07/27/sebok.edwards/index.html?iref=newssearch

Rearden Metal

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #115 on: January 23, 2008, 03:44:36 PM »
$590k to research how much a cow's burp effects "global warming" and I'm the nutcase? LOL.....K!

That amount of money is chicken feed. It's a drop in the bucket, and actually for that small of an investment you might be surprised at the potential for helpful scientific evidence.

You do realize that greenhouse gasses are largely a result of the enormous amounts of methane that livestock produce, don't you? Livestock that exists to satiate our grossly over-consuming population. 590k may seem like a large amount but in reality it's a piddly little sum.

Rearden Metal

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #116 on: January 23, 2008, 03:45:55 PM »
Honestly no, but it sounded as rediculous as the research someone was doing last year on cow farts in relation to global warming or Cheryl Crow (I think it was her) who said to use only one square of toilet paper after pooping.

OK, now I see that you really are uneducated on the subject. What a surprise.

Rearden Metal

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #117 on: January 23, 2008, 03:48:50 PM »
He admits to Zack that he doesn't understand what's in the article.

Yet he ridicules it.

He started a thread to bash scientsits in anther country on the other side of the world, researching something he admits he doesn't understand.

He did this because in his mind, he drew some parallel to americans democrats, which he knows he hates, despite the fact they are unrelated to this news story.

QFT

Rearden Metal

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #118 on: January 23, 2008, 03:51:21 PM »

Last time I checked we..America, is at war. We're not stealing anybodies oil. Oil is $88 so while we might protect it, we're not doing much else. Most people believ in the bible. U non-believers who laugh at "christians" ar the minority.

WTF? Hahahaha!!!!



Oh, BTW, GO PATS!!! That much we can agree on!

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #119 on: January 23, 2008, 09:10:04 PM »
Maybe, maybe not.  I doubt it will seriously damage the economy….Paying down our debt may do wonders for the economy.
 Taxes are taxes--don't be so histrionical and selfish.  Pay your damn taxes like everyone else.

So running astronomically high debts and then increasing taxes to pay them off is good for the economy? That's a stretch even for a socialist.

I prefer to be charitable with my money at my own discretion, I say again I'm not fond of charity at gunpoint.

Soc. Sec. is the single most successful gov. program in history.  It puts to shame any private enterprise re life insurance or retirement benefits (which are generally held under insurance contracts call group annuity contracts.).

I'd say the GI bill was vastly more successful than Social Security. The GI bill helped get education and become productive members of society. Social Security is just an income redistribution program.

Social Security is superior to life insurance and retirement benefits? Do you actually know how much Social Security actually pays people? About $1000 a month on average. WOW what an awesome retirement that would be, a whole 250 bucks a week. All you have to do is pay 9% of your income for you whole life, gain absolutely no interest on it, and then get paid next to nothing when you retire.

If you would pay 9% of your income into a 401(k) plan for your whole life, you'd get all of that money that paid in when you retire PLUS interest and growth of your stock options. 401(k) is a far superior to Social Security.

Comparing life insurance to Social Security to life insurance is comparing apples to oranges. When you die, your life insurance pays your beneficiaries lots of money, Social Security pays your beneficiaries nothing and your Social Security Payments do not transfer over to your spouse, they just stop. What a compassionate way to handle a death of a spouse in retirement, not give the widow(er) a dime. Thanks government!

T-bills are one of the most conservative investments out there.  The purpose is not to grow the money, the purpose is to preserve the existing amounts to fund social insurance benefits.  Growing wealth means growing risk and the SSA does not want to gamble with the benefits of others.

Get real, politicians are not using the Social Security Trust Fund to buy T-Bills, they're spending it in order to buy votes and fund social programs.

How is growing money risky? Investing in the stock market is not gambling, the stock market grows every year regardless of recessions and depressions.

Plus more than likely you won't get back all of the money you paid into Social Security anyway.

How is it a fake promise?

Because $1000 bucks a month is not a "living wage", and it won't support you in retirement, and payments are likely to go down in the future.

If you have health insurance, you have a preventive medical care plan.  If you do not have insurance, or are underinsured, you do not.

Preventive medial plans in the US are a joke, plain and simple. There is no reward for healthy behavior in our system today.

I wasn’t referring to private insurance companies in Canada:  “Some private insurance firms have expressed interest in offering policies that would provide service in the United States if one had to wait more than thirty days on a Canadian waiting list; however, there has been no apparent demand for such policies to date.”

One who? A Canadian or American citizen?

How do you know that private health care coverage in UHC countries is increasing? 

Because I can read. This information is not a secret.


Maybe there are long lines for some procedures.  A long line in Canada for treatment is better than no treatment in the US.  Some private insurance firms have expressed interest in offering policies that would provide service in the United States if one had to wait more than thirty days on a Canadian waiting list; however, there has been no apparent demand for such policies to date.

Can you show me the Canadian Statute that bars its citizens from going outside the country for treatment?


I stand corrected on the illegality of pursuing health care abroad for Canadians, I had heard that before but I haven't found evidence for it. My bad.

When is says "to date" on your statement there, when was that? Because only recently has Canada allowed its citizens to pursue health insurance (2005 I think).


I didn't say anyone in particular is advocating  $50,000 cap, I just used it as an example.  The proposed federal cap is $250,000 by Bush.  What’s the difference between $250,000 and $50,000 when your talking about lifelong problems due to the incompetence of others?

It’s nothing.  Might as well be $5.

The problem is that a lot of malpractice lawsuits are actually due to errors. There is a huge difference between malpractice and error, but lawyers don't see it this way. So a lot of good doctors are being unfairly sued.

So since the case was decided wrong, I take it the judgment was vacated and poor innocent doctors were made whole again?

I don't think you are giving a faithful recount of the case.

One case does not make the national malpractice situation out of control.  Like I said, you want malpractice cases to reduce in number, then start reducing the number of incompetent doctors.

No, it wasn't vacated and the money was never returned. Last time I checked John Edwards was still pretty rich.

What I said was basically this case in a nutshell, if I said something inaccurate please point it out to me.

This one case was an example, this kind of thing happens all the time.

There aren't as many incompetent doctors as the lawyer would like you to think. The more they can convince people that all medical mistakes are due to malpractice, the more money they make, just follow the money.

"The total cost of medical malpractice insurance is less than 2 percent of all U.S. health care spending. So how can such litigation be a serious threat to medical care in the first place?
Malpractice suit awards have declined
Granted, despite these other points, damage awards are at least a factor in rising premiums -- and damage awards are rising. According to Justice Department statistics, the typical (or median) damage award won by plaintiffs in medical malpractice suits increased from $253,000 in 1992, to $431,000 in 2001. (The statistics are based on civil trials conducted in the U.S.'s 75 largest counties.)"

I don't understand your point about unnecessary medical work and malpractice.


http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/07/27/sebok.edwards/index.html?iref=newssearch

It's not just the cost of medical insurance that drives up prices. The threat of litigation changes behaviors. Doctors are more likely to perform unnecessary tests and procedures just to cover their asses in case of a lawsuit. The cost of all these unnecessary procedures are way more than 2%. What's hard to understand about that?

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #120 on: January 23, 2008, 09:16:02 PM »
Warhorse,

I love how Socialists such as yourself dance around the basic premise.  You will take pot shots by using terms like "greed" and "helping fellow man"

The problem with your thinking is that you have to STEAL from me to distribute to a cause that SOMEONE OTHER THAN ME deems necessary.

Do you not see the flaw with this?

Do you not acknowledge that every man has the right to his property?

That was the point in the Revolution...  Life, Liberty, and Property

I guess that level of thinking - Personal Liberty, Personal Responsibility, Freedom to Succeed, Freedom to Fail is just outdated right?

And the reason that you say that Private Charity fails, is because Socialists are the most uncaring and ungiving people there are.

How much have you donated to charity this year? 

Oh thats right, government is supposed to take care of the needy so you don't have to part with YOUR MONEY.  Let's take from the RICH, as they have PLENTY...

I am close friends with several multi-millionaires and they are the most giving people I know.  What they do not do is get on TV and demand that someone else pays for a cause that they deem worthy.  If they support it, then they use their own money.




Bravo

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #121 on: January 23, 2008, 09:39:18 PM »
WTF? Hahahaha!!!!



Oh, BTW, GO PATS!!! That much we can agree on!
opium maybe ???

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #122 on: January 23, 2008, 11:28:12 PM »
Decker,

The principles of Socialism, and redistribution of wealth DO NOT WORK and CANNOT WORK.  They violate mans basic motive to produce.

Man is motivated by personal profit - Period.

Our constitutional Republic was designed to protect mans profit from theft by lies or force.

What you encourage is legalized theft by government in the name of Healthcare, Children's education, Fair wages, (insert your cause here)

The problems we have with our system stem from the power of federal government being controlled by corporations.  Giving government more power only makes it worse = more erosion of liberty. 

Smaller government and more personal responsibility - EACH PERSON PROVIDES FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES.  PRIVATE CHARITY CAN TAKE CARE OF THE REST.

It is MY CHOICE to help a family with MY MONEY.



I definitely understand you on a philosophical level.

However there is a slight problem applying it in real life.

Because everyone are not equally productive, some people are born and brought up in criminal environments, et al.

A state cannot be effective unless a very high grade of the population is working, has a good education, and are living under not just acceptable conditions, but conditions that allows for a good life.

Back in the early 90's in Russia, everything was capitalized, and it led to huge riches for a few, but also the occurance of poverty, and high crime.

So giving a big responsibility to each and every one is a very nice thought.

But unless you by some magic wand can give everyone an equal start in life, a fair chance at a good childhood, a fair chance at a calm school day, the idea of minimal goverment and maximal individual responsibility a la Robert Nozick is an Utopia.

And BTW, one of the premises of your reasoning is flawed.

Man is motivated by personal profit - Period.

If you would study organizational theory or take a leadership course, you would learn that profit is only one part of it, and a temporary motivation. Other factors are more important to motivate, eg:

Inspiring work
Democracy
Recognition

Check Herzberg's Two Factor Theory if you want to know more.
As empty as paradise

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #123 on: January 24, 2008, 04:21:02 AM »
All fine and dandy Mr. Hedga la socialist.

Socialism in Europe is young, and is already showing fault lines.

Keep believing in your idealistic dream ::)
الاسلام هو شيطانية

youandme

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Re: Liberals...Hahahahahaha!
« Reply #124 on: January 24, 2008, 05:52:33 AM »