PM Questions Answers - Dianabol

[pellius]

gh15, why do you think all UG products are faked. Considering test and dbol are like $2/gram as a powder there's nothing to be gained by shorting the customer.

And when you say all UG is garbage; what about the lab results posted both by the supplier and a random user (typically a mod) who gets the vials/pills tested?

Good question. With powders so cheap, and I'm sure the chinks mark that up a lot, where is the incentive to sell bunk? I can understand UG labs cutting products out of greed but why would China make powders so bad? I mean, aren't they themselves heavy users of hormones and HGH? Don't these China labs supply to their own pharmas? If a home brewer gets powder for his own use and has full control of the potency couldn't he make a decent product like is done with finaplex?

Other than China being our sworn enemies and are determined to undermine the US so they can rule the world while poisoning our dogs what's your problem with China?

[DK II]

Good question. With powders so cheap, and I'm sure the chinks mark that up a lot, where is the incentive to sell bunk? I can understand UG labs cutting products out of greed but why would China make powders so bad? I mean, aren't they themselves heavy users of hormones and HGH? Don't these China labs supply to their own pharmas? If a home brewer gets powder for his own use and has full control of the potency couldn't he make a decent product like is done with finaplex?

Other than China being our sworn enemies and are determined to undermine the US so they can rule the world while poisoning our dogs what's your problem with China?

Do you really believe some idiot without a proper lab and all needed equipment could make the same grade pharmaceuticals as a billion $$ pharmacy corp??

These guys probably mix the roids in the same bathtub they wash their dogs in. Please someone post the pics of some busted UG lab, with all the chinese food boxes, ashtrays and stuff next to the powders and equipment. 

[Disgusted]

Good question. With powders so cheap, and I'm sure the chinks mark that up a lot, where is the incentive to sell bunk? I can understand UG labs cutting products out of greed but why would China make powders so bad? I mean, aren't they themselves heavy users of hormones and HGH? Don't these China labs supply to their own pharmas? If a home brewer gets powder for his own use and has full control of the potency couldn't he make a decent product like is done with finaplex?

Other than China being our sworn enemies and are determined to undermine the US so they can rule the world while poisoning our dogs what's your problem with China?

A lot of powders from China are crap. For example, back when Androsteine came out bout 12 years ago the only thing I thought it was actually good for IMO was as a pre workout stimulant. Anyway, the tabs I had were supposed to be 100mg and they seemed weak so I had then tested and they turned out to be 50mg. The company who made them who I knew very well found that all the tubs they bought were only half real product and the rest filler. This company routinely spent 100's of thousands a year with these China suppliers. You ask why would they do such a thing? Simple, money and you have no recourse as far as a law suit goes. The real danger is whether some of these powders contain any types of metals or other type of toxic impurities.

[DVSGOD]

GH15, what do you think of this

Alin is very good but gh15 has said nasty things about them/him in the past 

[Cleanest Natural]

GH15, what do you think of this

That's Bulgarian dianabol , and it's available at the pharmacy in bulgaria...odly enough u need a prescription. Otherwise u can buy deca 50 ml and test 50 ml without one....it's the bulgarian equivalent of Naposim and it comes in 5 mg tabs.

[gh15]

Good question. With powders so cheap, and I'm sure the chinks mark that up a lot, where is the incentive to sell bunk? I can understand UG labs cutting products out of greed but why would China make powders so bad? I mean, aren't they themselves heavy users of hormones and HGH? Don't these China labs supply to their own pharmas? If a home brewer gets powder for his own use and has full control of the potency couldn't he make a decent product like is done with finaplex?

Other than China being our sworn enemies and are determined to undermine the US so they can rule the world while poisoning our dogs what's your problem with China?

greediness,,its common with simple criminals that work in chains,,the real criminals do not sit on usa grounds,,also read what disgusted said and you will find yoru answer

[the_doc]

Well made points but you are hardly comparing like with like.
Healthy, young weight trainers with sick/fasting people. There are risks to taking almost any medication long or short term. Acetominophen(paracetemol in europe) is very danerous in overdose and causes irriversible liver damage and your points about normal use are also true but adverse effects in people using it for headaches, hanovers, cold or flus are very, very rare. Not true. Many here in the US have needed liver transplants just using it for hangovers at recommened doses once or twice a week. This is exactly why there is a warning now on the label. Flu and cold remedies sell in the milions. and there are MANY deaths because of these drugs and not because of abuse. My arguement that saying a heavy cycle of orals compared to ordinary use of  paracetemol is like sweets to your liver is crap. You are correct to highlight that paracetemol can be very danerous and shouldn't be taken excessively or routinely but you should not give the impression that someone using roids can relax safe in the knowledge that it's nothing compared to taking tylenol. That's exactly what I am saying. I have never known anyone who has needed a liver transplant because they took 50 mgs of dbol or 100mgs of drol for a few months. BTW, it's not just sick people who don't eat, it's also BB's who diet for shows. I wonder how many BB who are taking tylenol for aches and pains while contest dieting who may end up needing are liver tranplant and have it blamed on dbol?I am not very judgemental when it comes to roids. i have seen biochemical evidence of changes pre and post cycle. So have I and it is nearly impossible to get accurate readings on liver enzymes, CK levels and kidney due to the fact that these guys are breaking down muscle tissue to such a great degree.  Millionds of people with chronic ill health use paracetemol regularily eg arthritis with almost zero side effect burden on patients or health service in terms of liver faiure. Statement of opinion not fact since there is no way to test liver enzymes on these millions of people. regards,

the Doc

Dear Disgusted,

My last post on this topic. Apologies for all my spelling errors. I'm tired. I was on call last night. Firstly, I'm not a scaremongering doc who thinks roids are evil responsible for all ill health. secondly I hhave no intention of insulting or trying to "own" you. The impact of anabolic steroid use on the health service in US/Europe is pretty much miniscule in the grand scheme of things. However there are risks involved and they shouldn't be dismissed as like taking candy compared to safe, recommended therapeutic doses of paracetamol eg less than 4 per day. Do you now that tyelenol is actually safe to use in low doses for fever/pain in patients WITH liver disease.(It's not metabolised as quickly so more time for liver to cope with the toxic metaboiltes. I can't exactly be accused of excessive medical jargon here.)

I'd say the young BB who used DBol for10 weeks and got huge and strong probably has normal LFT's. Your points about CK raised due to exercise and not roids are correct. Also i will repeat that you are correct to highlight the dangers of paracetemol. However I don't believe it's dangerous in therapeutic doses. People can get into trouble by accidently overdosing ie taking several products all containing paracetamol. In some retrospective studies paracetamol toxicitiy was the cause of failure in almost half of transplant patients but it was due to intentional or accidental overdose(which would include those takin too much flu/cold remedy.) In those cases doses taken were 7.5-10g per day while recommended dose is max 4g. There are isolated case reports of therapeutic doses causing liver failure although those patients had muscular dystrophy which may or not be relevant. Caution is needed in fasting pt's but paracetamol is often used in IV form intra and perioperatively in pt's taking nil by mouth on surgical wards.

So i will argue that paracetamol is a very usefull and safe drug when used properly. Unintentional is dangerous and people need to check what's in all there over the counter meds. D-Bol is probably safe if used responsibly but my whole arguement is basically that people should take that responsibility and I felt that comparing to paracetamol flippantly belittled that need. I don't believe responsible use of either will leave any significant no. of people on a transplant list. It's funny that rearding the safety of using d-bol we would probably not have much to argue over but the simple tyelenol has us divided!
I should clarify that when i mentioned paracetamol for hangovers i was refering to regular joe's after a fun night and not people with chronic alcohol misuse.(But alcohol is an arguement for another day) 

"Millionds of people with chronic ill health use paracetamol regularily eg arthritis with almost zero side effect burden on patients or health service in terms of liver faiure. Statement of opinion not fact since there is no way to test liver enzymes on these millions of people. regards,"

It's actually not just my opinion. I don't need to check their liver enzymes. These populations of patients are simply not cloging up liver clinics and transplant waiting lists.

"I wonder how many BB who are taking tylenol for aches and pains while contest dieting who may end up needing are liver tranplant and have it blamed on dbol?[/       
I'd say approximately zero.You will have to look long and hard on the internet. I have included the abstract of a good article. Plenty of these patients were sick and fasting at times. I'm sure you could find plenty of ammo to throw back.

regards,

the Doc



Does Therapeutic Use of Acetaminophen Cause Acute Liver Failure?
Posted 10/15/2007

Richard C. Dart, M.D., Ph.D.; Elise Bailey, M.S.P.H.

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Abstract and Introduction
Abstract
Study Objective: To compare the reported occurrence of liver failure in subjects in prospective trials with that in patients in retrospective reports after repeated use of therapeutic dosages of acetaminophen.
Design: Systematic review of the medical literature.
Data Source: MEDLINE and EMBASE biomedical and pharmacologic databases.
Subjects: Adults who received repeated dosing of acetaminophen 4 g/day or lower for at least 24 hours.
Measurements and Main Results: Articles written in several languages were abstracted by trained personnel using a structured abstraction form. Data were categorized by methodology (prospective vs retrospective), acetaminophen dosage, and type of liver effect. A total of 791 articles were identified, which included 30,865 subjects in prospective studies and 9337 patients in retrospective reports. The prospective studies reported no cases of fulminant hepatic injury, liver transplantation, or death due to acetaminophen. Of the 30,865 subjects in these studies, 129 (0.4%) were identified who had a serum aminotransferase level that exceeded the upper limit of normal, including 61 subjects in randomized trials in which the proportion of serum aminotransferase level increase was the same as or less than that in the placebo group and 68 subjects in trials without a placebo group. In addition, 4263 (13.8%) received the maximum recommended therapeutic dosage (3.9–4 g/day). In the retrospective reports, 96 patients (1.0%) had a serum alanine aminotransferase level that exceeded the upper limit of normal, one (0.01%) underwent liver transplantation, and six (0.06%) died. Causality relationship of acetaminophen for each retrospective case was assessed with the Naranjo adverse drug reaction probability scale. The mean ± SD Naranjo score for all 103 retrospective cases was 3.2 ± 1.9, indicating a possible relationship between the increased aminotransferase levels and acetaminophen use. Some retrospective reports contained information suggesting that the patient had ingested an overdose despite a history of therapeutic use.
Conclusion: Prospective studies indicated that repeated use of a true therapeutic acetaminophen dosage may slightly increase the level of serum aminotransferase activity, but hepatic failure or death was not reported. Retrospective reports indicated a higher rate of increased serum aminotransferase levels, and several reported associated liver injury and death. The differing results and presence of evidence indicating inaccurate acetaminophen dosage information in some case reports suggests that these cases may be inadvertent overdoses, rather than true therapeutic dosages.

[Camel Jockey]

All the old timers ate dinabol like tictacs and they looked damn good.


gh15 is spot on.

[candidizzle]

I got news for you, stop roids and your gains will go away whether they are oral or injects.

no thats not entirely true. proper protein intake during cycle/ proper post cycle therapy/ intense post cycle training can help you keep almost the entirety of your gains..youll lose a little bit sure, and youll get softer...but if done correctly the benefits of steroid usage do not stop when you stop taking them.

[Camel Jockey]

no thats not entirely true. proper protein intake during cycle/ proper post cycle therapy/ intense post cycle training can help you keep almost the entirety of your gains..youll lose a little bit sure, and youll get softer...but if done correctly the benefits of steroid usage do not stop when you stop taking them.

Oh brother.. And you know more about this than Disgusted? Come on, bro. 

I've seen people on ASS and they shrink like crazy and lose a lot of strength when they go off. And most people DON'T bother with post cycle therapy.

[Disgusted]

no thats not entirely true. proper protein intake during cycle/ proper post cycle therapy/ intense post cycle training can help you keep almost the entirety of your gains..youll lose a little bit sure, and youll get softer...but if done correctly the benefits of steroid usage do not stop when you stop taking them.

So what your (yes your!!!! ) saying is that you will not lose your steroids gains when you stop taking steroids IF you take other kinds of drugs?   

[Disgusted]

Hey Doc, thanks for the reply really, and I did read it all. I wanted to clarify that I did not mean to imply that Dbol was like taking candy, it was just a comparison between  the two. Also, as far as Tylenol is concerned I will never take it again. The fact that the lack of Glutathione in the body to bind to the liver toxin that Tylenol produces (even at recommended doses) can be deadly within a matter of days is not a chance that I am willing to take. Now there is new evidence that mixing caffeine and acetaminophen  may also cause liver damage although admittedly more research needs to be done.

"Mixing Acetaminophen and Caffeine May Cause Liver Damage"

A strong cup of coffee and a handful of Tylenol the morning after a night of imbibing may do as much, or more, damage to your liver as the imbibing you did the night before, a new study finds.

The toxic interaction could occur not only from drinking caffeinated beverages while taking the painkiller but also from using large amounts of medications that intentionally combine caffeine and acetaminophen for the treatment of migraine headaches, menstrual discomfort and other conditions, according to researchers writing in the Oct. 15 print issue of Chemical Research in Toxicology.

Health experts have warned for years that consuming excess alcohol while taking acetaminophen can trigger toxic interactions and cause liver damage and even death. However, this is the first time scientists have reported a potentially harmful interaction while taking the painkiller with caffeine, the researchers say.

While the studies are preliminary findings conducted in bacteria and laboratory animals, they suggest that consumers may want to limit caffeine intake -- including energy drinks and strong coffee -- while taking acetaminophen.

Researchers from the University of Washington in Seattle tested the effects of acetaminophen and caffeine on E. coli bacteria genetically engineered to express a key human enzyme in the liver that detoxifies many prescription and nonprescription drugs.

Toxic byproducts
They found that caffeine triples the amount of a toxic byproduct, N-acetyl-p-benzoquinone imine (NAPQI) that the enzyme produces while breaking down acetaminophen. This same toxin is responsible for liver damage and failure in toxic alcohol-acetaminophen interactions, they say.

In previous studies, the same researchers showed that high doses of caffeine can increase the severity of liver damage in rats with acetaminophen-induced liver damage, thus supporting the current finding.

“People should be informed about this potentially harmful interaction,” chemist Sid Nelson says. “The bottom line is that you don’t have to stop taking acetaminophen or stop taking caffeine products, but you do need to monitor your intake more carefully when taking them together, especially if you drink alcohol.”

Megadoses
Nelson points out that the bacteria used in the study were exposed to ‘megadoses’ of both acetaminophen and caffeine, much higher than most individuals would normally consume on a daily basis. Most people would similarly need to consume unusually high levels of these compounds together to have a dangerous effect, but the toxic threshold has not yet been determined, he says.

Certain groups may be more vulnerable to the potentially toxic interaction than others, Nelson says. This includes people who take certain anti-epileptic medications, including carbamazepine and phenobarbital, and those who take St. John’s Wort, a popular herbal supplement.

These products have been shown to boost levels of the enzyme that produces the toxic liver metabolite NAPQI, an effect that will likely be heightened when taking both acetaminophen and caffeine together, he says.

Likewise, people who drink a lot of alcohol may be at increased risk for the toxic interaction, Nelson says. That’s because alcohol can trigger the production of yet another liver enzyme that produces the liver toxin NAPQI.

The risks are also higher for those who take large amounts of medications that combine both acetaminophen and caffeine, which are often used together as a remedy for migraine headaches, arthritis and other conditions.

The researchers are currently studying the mechanism by which this toxic interaction occurs and are considering human studies in the future, they say.

[Stavios]

no thats not entirely true. proper protein intake during cycle/ proper post cycle therapy/ intense post cycle training can help you keep almost the entirety of your gains..youll lose a little bit sure, and youll get softer...but if done correctly the benefits of steroid usage do not stop when you stop taking them.

that's like.. the worst thing you can do when you go off the drugs

[BDsauce]

Drol is better, RBC, better pumps, strength, weight gain etc.

Take real drol like Turkey/Iran Anapolon or Hemos from Brazil and look out! :

[the_doc]

Disgusted,
thanks posting that article. I like your style. I'm busy today and just doing a quick email and getbig check but i've saved it to my desktop to have proper read later. I'm training in surgery.(Equivalent to resident in the US). I will be working with the irish liver transplant service for 4 months starting march hence my added interest.
regards,

the Doc

[Disgusted]

Disgusted,
thanks posting that article. I like your style. I'm busy today and just doing a quick email and getbig check but i've saved it to my desktop to have proper read later. I'm training in surgery.(Equivalent to resident in the US). I will be working with the irish liver transplant service for 4 months starting march hence my added interest.
regards,

the Doc

Not a problem.  Nice to trade opinions. I'm sure you are putting in a ton of hours now, but I think that the liver transplant area of medicine would be a pretty exciting field to enter. Good luck.