The State of the Union

[youandme]

The threat is real....u have no idea whats going on and can't back up any of it. The FBI or CIA don't display what they're doing..u can get some half assed anaylst who used to be..or has ties to...act as a talking head on TV. Thats not like real intel.

Dude just stop, whatever if they want to believe it's ALL a fear tactic then let them. They don't know anyone "in the system", Regean's people Bush 41, and Carter (who has a DAMN good book out right now) will all agree with you.

[Straw Man]

The threat is real....u have no idea whats going on and can't back up any of it. The FBI or CIA don't display what they're doing..u can get some half assed anaylst who used to be..or has ties to...act as a talking head on TV. Thats not like real intel.

I didn't say the threat of terrorism wasn't real (although I believe it's way over-hyped).   I said those two claims by Bush were bullshit and people "in the know" agree.  

Neither of those "plots" were real threats by any definition

[headhuntersix]

I know its a no-win argument..sometimes I get drawn down the rabbithole. Well i think I'll go watch sportscenter and clear my mind.

[Straw Man]

I know its a no-win argument..sometimes I get drawn down the rabbithole. Well i think I'll go watch sportscenter and clear my mind.

HH - I'm open minded - please feel free to explain to me in specific detail why either of these two alleged plots were anywhere close to being workable, feasible, or anything more that talk.   

[CARTEL]

HH - I'm open minded - please feel free to explain to me in specific detail why either of these two alleged plots were anywhere close to being workable, feasible, or anything more that talk.   

 

[Straw Man]

I'm still waiting for someone to show me some proof that either of these were anything more than talk. 

Here's some facts to help you get started.

The 7 schmucks arrested in the Liberty plot were put on trial last December.

The result - 1 was acquited and the judge declared a mistrial against the other 6

from Time Magazine:  http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1694430,00.html

The entire situation was concocted by the government. The warehouse was paid for by the FBI, and the defendants moved their operations there at the suggestion of an undercover informant who was also paid by the FBI. The swearing-in ceremony was led by the informant — who at another point also suggested a plan to bomb FBI offices in Miami. "The case was written, produced and directed by the FBI," defense attorney Albert Levin said in his closing arguments.

Defendant Batiste, a father of four who ran a struggling construction business, claimed he was conning the informant, just as the informant was conning him. He says he was desperate for money, so he went along with the informant in hopes of tricking him into giving him $50,000..

But the heavy reliance on informants has led to cases that sometimes appear to exist in the land of make-believe. At one point during the Liberty City investigation, Batiste suggested to the informant that they could blow up the Sears Tower so that it would fall into Lake Michigan and create a tsunami. "Where did you get this idea?" Batiste's attorney later asked him on the stand. His answer was believable: "Just from watching the movies."
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OK - now tell me why I should believe this was anything more than a bunch of bullshit.

Is this the best example Bush can come up with after 6 years of the WAR on TERROR?

Surely there are better examples than this

[Brixtonbulldog]

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/10/06/whitehouse.plots/index.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,277337,00.html

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0508071ftdix1.html

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/1208061shareef1.html

If I had more time I would post more but this only took 5 mins.

[240 is Back]

In terms of our NATION'S FUTURE, Bush gets an A.

I know it might sound funny.  But in 20 years when they look back, what will they see?

----He set up what, 50+ bases in the middle east to guard against Russia, China, and everyone else in the future.

----He put in motion the arabian oil pipeline, owned by US firms.

----He installed Karzai in afghanistan who assigned caspian sea oil access to the USA. (11 tril in oil there that is known- conservative estimate)

----He installed a govt in Iraq which signed over 80% of their future oil to US companies.

----He "made us aware" of how bad islamofascism was (by letting 911 happen), which allowed us to (assuming McCain's declaratio nthere will be more wars) start a series of wars to ensure in the end, white wins over brown, west wins over east.

----Our grandkids will be safer and richer.  Yes, Bush borrowed 5 trillion to do it.  But the bases are priceless, the iraqi oil we own is worth at least 40 tril. 

Now, you can be trivial and say some of the points are wrong, that's okay, you just haven't researched it yet, or youre too blind to admit it.  Yes, we were absolutely lied to in order to let this happen.  Yes, loss of life was horrible and all of this was done in a fearmongering manner.  Yes, a recession will come.  Yes, life's gonna suck during this period.

But history will write down what a great success this was.  We colonized Afghanistan, Iraq, and possibly iran.  Isn't that incredible?  Just blows the mind.  We're all juding this as a failure, but in terms of energy and global safety, it's a win.

[headhuntersix]

http://washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080130/FOREIGN/458073763/1001

Case in point.

Increased Iraqi oil revenues stemming from high prices and improved security are piling up in the Federal Reserve Bank of New York rather than being spent on needed reconstruction projects, a Washington Times study of Iraq's spending and revenue figures has shown.

The money is there....their money. We don't spend ours and they spend theirs paying our companies..eventually anyway.

[youandme]

In terms of our NATION'S FUTURE, Bush gets an A.

I know it might sound funny.  But in 20 years when they look back, what will they see?

----He set up what, 50+ bases in the middle east to guard against Russia, China, and everyone else in the future.

----He put in motion the arabian oil pipeline, owned by US firms.

----He installed Karzai in afghanistan who assigned caspian sea oil access to the USA. (11 tril in oil there that is known- conservative estimate)

----He installed a govt in Iraq which signed over 80% of their future oil to US companies.

----He "made us aware" of how bad islamofascism was (by letting 911 happen), which allowed us to (assuming McCain's declaratio nthere will be more wars) start a series of wars to ensure in the end, white wins over brown, west wins over east.

----Our grandkids will be safer and richer.  Yes, Bush borrowed 5 trillion to do it.  But the bases are priceless, the iraqi oil we own is worth at least 40 tril. 

ummm do you have links to any of this?

Our bases in the ME are almost nilche, Saudia Arabia kicked us out a Loooong time ago, as where as well.

LOL, bro you do know who owns that pipeline don't you? Aramco, A Saudi business, they bought out all US investors.

[Straw Man]

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/10/06/whitehouse.plots/index.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,277337,00.html

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0508071ftdix1.html

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/1208061shareef1.html

If I had more time I would post more but this only took 5 mins.

I specifically said the TWO plot's he mentioned in the State of the Union were BULLSHIT

Why didn't Bush pick any of the plots in the links you listed???

Any convictions (besides Jose Padilla?)

[240 is Back]

youandme,

I stopped following most of this months ago.  Some of what I think might be outdated, who knows.  we do have almost 2 dozen permanent bases in iraq alone, dont we?  it was designed to supplement the saudi bases, as we knew they were ending.

[Straw Man]

240 -

"we" don't own any Iraqi oil.  One could argue that all we've done is help the oil companies secure it for the future (this is debatable as a future Iraq govt. could just nationalize it all) where it will be sold on the world market at the highest price possible

[240 is Back]

240 -

"we" don't own any Iraqi oil.  One could argue that all we've done is help the oil companies secure it for the future (this is debatable as a future Iraq govt. could just nationalize it all) where it will be sold on the world market at the highest price possible

no, this part is wrong.

research hydrocarbon law. 80% of it must be sold to US firms in USD, and this cannot be changed by future leaders.

[Straw Man]

no, this part is wrong.

research hydrocarbon law. 80% of it must be sold to US firms in USD, and this cannot be changed by future leaders.

I've posted ad naseaum about the hydrocarbon law

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=160301.0

Has it passed yet???

No because the Iraqi's aren't too keen on us taking all their national wealth

Even if we do get Iraq to pass this there's no way to enforce it if Iraq (a sovereign nation) decides to just nationalize the asset - say for reasons of national defense

[240 is Back]

we'll have many permanent bases there.  they nationalize oil, we promptly bomb the shit out of them.

Iraq announced last week they're about to reach terms for longterm us bases there, NBC reported it and it was discussed here.

there is no way they can just decide to screw us out of the oil if we're there, armed and smiling.

[Straw Man]

we'll have many permanent bases there.  they nationalize oil, we promptly bomb the shit out of them.

Iraq announced last week they're about to reach terms for longterm us bases there, NBC reported it and it was discussed here.

there is no way they can just decide to screw us out of the oil if we're there, armed and smiling.

The sovereign nation of Iraq can kick out the US whenever it wants.  We've completely altered the power structure in the middle east.    At some point Iraq could decide to align itself with Iran, or China or Russia or anyone.

The idea that the US owns that oil into infinity is naive

Even now it doesn't belong to the US citizens (the people who paid to secure it).

International Oil companies are the ones in line not the US citizen

[Decker]

no, this part is wrong.

research hydrocarbon law. 80% of it must be sold to US firms in USD, and this cannot be changed by future leaders.

He's right.  The US doesn't own anything.  The corporations have the rights--some are US based, some British, and some are multi-national.

The oil companies have no allegiance to our country.  They can up and relocate in a heartbeat.

It is not our country that profits from the Iraqi theft. 

The gas prices haven't gone down. 

The oil proceeds do not pay for the 100s of billions that the war costs--we pay for that with our tax dollars.

So we are paying for the Iraqi oil 2 times--once to secure the rights for corporations (with interest) and a second time at the pump. 

The list of prosperous accomplishments you created does not inure to my benefit.

As for the safer part--it's the US's fucking with foreign elections/politics that created the hatred/animosity towards us.  How is more fucking in foreign affairs going to change that dynamic.  The Iranians still hate us for imposing the Shah on them.

How you can conclude that our grandkids will be safer & richer in the future is beyond me.

[Straw Man]

At some point Iraq is actually going to want to pump and sell that oil and if the US can't provide the secure environment in which to do that they will look to some other country

BTW - why should the US taxpayer be paying (borrowing) to finance this security only to have all the benefit go the the oil conglomerates?

 

[Straw Man]

Here's an idea

Let's get the oil flowing and tell the Saudi's to go fuck themselves.

Before the oil companies get to make 1 penny of profit the US taxpayer has to be paid back for our entire investment in that country plus a reasonable ROI

[War-Horse]

Here's an idea

Let's get the oil flowing and tell the Saudi's to go fuck themselves.

Before the oil companies get the make 1 penny of profit the US taxpayer has to be paid back for our entire investment in that country plus a reasonable ROI

AMEN.

[youandme]

we'll have many permanent bases there.  they nationalize oil, we promptly bomb the shit out of them.

Iraq announced last week they're about to reach terms for longterm us bases there, NBC reported it and it was discussed here.

there is no way they can just decide to screw us out of the oil if we're there, armed and smiling.

No bro it was all a pipe dream (pun intended).


NBC, reported the temporary command post, not the same thing as bases.

The real people who are benefiting are the Saudis, the USmarketplace got bought out, not completely but enough to know they want to keep the war going to fuel their payroll, cause they saw even in the end the Saudis were going to take over.

Exxon, Chevron, were bought out years ago, were fighting a war to get rid of terror, at the same time allowing the money to be fueled right back into the system of networking terror.

[War-Horse]

Wow.   Good info coming in....^^^....

[Decker]

"It was such a riveting speech, Larry Craig only took two bathroom breaks.
  Halfway through, Ted Kennedy sent over a couple of drinks to the Bush twins."      

 -- David Letterman

[Bindare_Dundat]

In terms of our NATION'S FUTURE, Bush gets an A.

I know it might sound funny.  But in 20 years when they look back, what will they see?

----He set up what, 50+ bases in the middle east to guard against Russia, China, and everyone else in the future.

----He put in motion the arabian oil pipeline, owned by US firms.

----He installed Karzai in afghanistan who assigned caspian sea oil access to the USA. (11 tril in oil there that is known- conservative estimate)

----He installed a govt in Iraq which signed over 80% of their future oil to US companies.

----He "made us aware" of how bad islamofascism was (by letting 911 happen), which allowed us to (assuming McCain's declaratio nthere will be more wars) start a series of wars to ensure in the end, white wins over brown, west wins over east.

----Our grandkids will be safer and richer.  Yes, Bush borrowed 5 trillion to do it.  But the bases are priceless, the iraqi oil we own is worth at least 40 tril. 

Now, you can be trivial and say some of the points are wrong, that's okay, you just haven't researched it yet, or youre too blind to admit it.  Yes, we were absolutely lied to in order to let this happen.  Yes, loss of life was horrible and all of this was done in a fearmongering manner.  Yes, a recession will come.  Yes, life's gonna suck during this period.

But history will write down what a great success this was.  We colonized Afghanistan, Iraq, and possibly iran.  Isn't that incredible?  Just blows the mind.  We're all juding this as a failure, but in terms of energy and global safety, it's a win.

It hard to believe that with all that energy in man power, money , time, death, maiming, new enemies created that it just wouldn't have been easier to find a working alternative to oil and the infastruture to use it.

Think of all the money and jobs this would have created in itself.