Author Topic: HGH dosing question that you might not have seen  (Read 16295 times)

nickbronco

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HGH dosing question that you might not have seen
« on: February 22, 2008, 05:50:12 AM »
Does anyone have experience with Somatropin which is pre-mixed in a cartridge that is made for a pen? You know, like the pens made for insulin. The question is this...the pen "clicks" in 0.1mg increments...like 0.1, 0.2, 0.3 and so on. The dosage on the cartridge is 15mg/1ml. What's the daily dosage on this pen for 4 i.u./day?

claymore

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Re: HGH dosing question that you might not have seen
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2008, 03:39:23 PM »
Are you referring to the "Mini quicks"

Arnold jr

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Re: HGH dosing question that you might not have seen
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2008, 04:28:29 PM »
Usually on a slin pin, each 10th mark represents 100mcg, which means the 10th mark itself represents 1mg or 1ml.

Now, in most cases, HGH is mixed with 1ml of solution, or 1000mcg. Again, in most cases this will represent 10iu of HGH. So in your case, odds are that each increment on these preloaded syringes represents 1iu of HGH.

Last thing, I do not now what you're using...I'm taking a stab at what "it should be like" not necessarily what it is. Any HGH I've ever used or seen has either been in raw form where I mixed i myself, or straight from the pharmacy where it was already mixed and labeled on the bottle how much constituted each iu.

Van_Bilderass

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Re: HGH dosing question that you might not have seen
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2008, 07:04:42 AM »
Does anyone have experience with Somatropin which is pre-mixed in a cartridge that is made for a pen? You know, like the pens made for insulin. The question is this...the pen "clicks" in 0.1mg increments...like 0.1, 0.2, 0.3 and so on. The dosage on the cartridge is 15mg/1ml. What's the daily dosage on this pen for 4 i.u./day?
If you have a pen designed for this specific brand of GH then the pen markings should tell you the correct dosage. If one click is 0.1mg then it means .3iu as GH is 3iu per mg.

In any case it should be easy to calculate. You have 45iu of growth in 1ml. One tenth of a ml is then 4.5iu.

Are you sure it's not a 1.5ml ampule?

Van_Bilderass

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Re: HGH dosing question that you might not have seen
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2008, 07:08:37 AM »
Usually on a slin pin, each 10th mark represents 100mcg, which means the 10th mark itself represents 1mg or 1ml.
The markings represent a volume measurement, not a weight measurement.

nickbronco

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Re: HGH dosing question that you might not have seen
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2008, 08:30:37 AM »
Van_Bilderass you are correct. The cartridge is 1.5ml. I apologize for incorrectly stating. I now have the cartridges in front of me. They say...somatropin 15mg/1.5ml and I have a couple that are 5mg/1.5ml. And yes, again you are correct, the pen is specifically made for the cartridges. The pen has the 0.1mg "clicks".

Van_Bilderass

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Re: HGH dosing question that you might not have seen
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2008, 09:05:31 AM »
Van_Bilderass you are correct. The cartridge is 1.5ml. I apologize for incorrectly stating. I now have the cartridges in front of me. They say...somatropin 15mg/1.5ml and I have a couple that are 5mg/1.5ml. And yes, again you are correct, the pen is specifically made for the cartridges. The pen has the 0.1mg "clicks".
Then 13 clicks should give you 3.9iu if the pen is made for the 15mg amp (1.3mg x 3, as each mg is 3iu).

nickbronco

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Re: HGH dosing question that you might not have seen
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2008, 09:25:57 AM »
Thank you Van_Bilderass. I was totally confused. Then the 5mg/1.5ml is going to be a crazy amount of clicks to get to 4iu. Thanks again!

Vet

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Re: HGH dosing question that you might not have seen
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2008, 10:09:01 AM »
Usually on a slin pin, each 10th mark represents 100mcg, which means the 10th mark itself represents 1mg or 1ml.

Now, in most cases, HGH is mixed with 1ml of solution, or 1000mcg. Again, in most cases this will represent 10iu of HGH. So in your case, odds are that each increment on these preloaded syringes represents 1iu of HGH.


Arnold JR, you generally give what seems like really good information, but I've got to step in here because the way I read what you posted it is very, very wrong.  

There are two types of insulin syringes available on the market---U100 (which is human/veterinary use) and U-40, which is only veterinary use.  The syringes are based on a 1ml maximum content in which a U100 insulin syringe has 100 units of insulin per 1 ml.  Obviously U40 syringes have 40 units of insulin per 1 ml--- and as a result, markings on a syringe that result in roughly 2.5 times as much volume per unit when comparing a U100 to a U40 syringe.   As a general rule, you cannot get U40 syringes from a human pharmacy (they again are veterinary use, there is no longer any U40 human insulin available on the market that I'm aware of) however you can get U40 or U100 from a veterinary supplier because of the crossover of insulin from human to veterinary medicine.   Now to complicate things a bit more, U100 insulin syringes are available in 1/3, 1/2, and 1 ml size syringes.  U40  syringes are typically only available as 1/2 and 1 ml syringes.  On insulin syringes, each individual mark represents 1 Unit---and the marks are based on if its U40 or U100 insulin with the syringes clearly labeled as U40 or U100.  

Also remember that Insulin Units (U-40 or U-100) are different from International Units (IU).   An IU is a measure of biological activity---in insulin 1 IU of insulin has the biological equivalent of about 45.5 μg pure crystalline insulin.  Use of IU to measure insuling makes things even more confusing becuase you aren't measuring volume, you are measuring biological activity.   I personally try to not think about IU of insulin unless I want to torture myself.  

All of that sad, a 1 ml (or CC) U100 insulin syringe IS NOT the same as a 1 ml (or 1 CC) tuberculin syringe---which is divided from 1 ml into 0.01ml segments (one 1/100th of a CC) so that each mark represents 0.01 ml.  To the casual observer, the measurements of 0.01 ml and 1 U of insulin appear to be the same, but they aren't.  We did a study a while back on measuring the mass of insulin given out of a TB syringe vs a U100 insulin syringe in birds.  The tuberculin syringes consistantly had variable dosing volumes/masses.   The best reason we could figure was due to the subtle difference between 1 U of U100 insulin and the differences in hub size.  A typical TB syringe has approximately 0.03 to 0.06 ml of fluid left in the hub, while an insulin syringe has less than 0.005 ml.  If you depress the syringe hard enough to compress the rubber plunger, you will inject a portion of that hub fluid using a tuberculin syringe.  You'll only get a negligable amount (ie a tiny, tiny drop) out of an insulin syringe.  If you don't depress the plunger that hard, obviously you won't inject it.    This isn't a big deal when administering BPD or PPD or antibiotics from a TB syringe but can be a huge issue if you are administering something as sensitive as insulin to a child or small animal---something where a 0.06 ml difference in volume injected may result in hypoglycemia.  

With GH--the only product I have any experience with is the use of Humatrop in a german shepard dog that had a congenital defect in GH production.  This dog wasn't a patient of mine, but the case was discussed in quite a bit of detail at the hospital.  Humatrop at that time was only available as a 5 mg vial. This 5 mg vial contained the 15 IU of biologically active somatropin (growth hormone)---remember again an IU is a measure of biologicaly activity, not a measure of volume or mass.   It was to be reconstituted with the 5 ml vial of sterile water which was supplied.  This resulted in a diluted concentration of 1 mg/ml of somatropin (concentration of base product/concentration of dilulent= final concentration).  This 1 mg/ml of somatropin resulted in a 3 IU/ml concentration of somatropin (or 3 IU/ml of biologically available growth hormone).    If a tuberculin syringe would be used to inject it like we did with this dog, 0.01 ml (1 mark on the syringe) was the equivilant of 0.01 mg of growth hormone which was the equivilant of 0.03IU of growth hormone---if I didn't mess up the math with the conversions.  Again, if I want to torture myself, I do calculations with IU.  

The Humatrope cartidges were designed for ease of use by nonmedical personelle, but if you do the math with them, they are even more confusing.  They are a prefilled syringe with a cartridge in them that contains either  6 mg (18IU), 12 mg(36 IU) or 24 mg (72 IU) somatropin.  The dilulent included is 3 ml of sterile water---so if you use the cartridge, it will result in either 2 mg (9 IU), 6 mg (18 IU) or 12 mg (36 IU) per ml concentration of somatropin.  


Obviously this math can be very, very confusing.   It gets even more confusing because different manufacturers make HGH products with different doses.  For example, NovoNordisk makes Norditropin Cartridges in three concentrations:  5 mg/1.5 ml (or 3.33 mg/ml) 10 mg/1.5 ml (or 6.667 mg/ml) or 15 mg/1.5 ml (or 10 mg/ml).  


My advice for anyone considering administering these sort of drugs, especially if you are doing it outside of the direct guidance of a trained medical professional, make damned sure you have something that is clearly labeled, you have the correct syringes, you double check the syringes, and you think a bit about the math involved with the dilutions.  

Vet

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Re: HGH dosing question that you might not have seen
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2008, 10:10:36 AM »
The markings represent a volume measurement, not a weight measurement.


or a concentration measurement based on weight or mass. 

nickbronco

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Re: HGH dosing question that you might not have seen
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2008, 01:00:32 PM »
Heck yeah the math gets confusing!

Question for VET. In the NovoNordisk info you gave, do you think we're on track with 13 "clicks" on the NORDIC PEN if using your Novo Nordisk cartridges?

Vet

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Re: HGH dosing question that you might not have seen
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2008, 05:34:30 PM »
Heck yeah the math gets confusing!

Question for VET. In the NovoNordisk info you gave, do you think we're on track with 13 "clicks" on the NORDIC PEN if using your Novo Nordisk cartridges?

Sorry, I have no idea.  I have absolutely no experience with that product in any way other than to read the product label.  The "click" could be 0.001 ml or it could be 10 ml.  Like I said in the long post, the only experience I have with any growth hormone products is Humatrop for one patient.

That said, I sure wouldn't rely on "clicks" for dosing any drug unless i knew some very precise specifics about the administration equipment.   You have to know what the concentration of the drug is (ie how many mg/ml or how many IU/ml if its a drug like HGH---Novonordisk has 3 different cartidges each with a different concentration) and what the volume per "click" that is delivered. 

If you don't know those things, then stay the hell away from that drug because who knows how much of what you are going to be putting into your body. 

Van_Bilderass

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Re: HGH dosing question that you might not have seen
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2008, 07:34:43 PM »

or a concentration measurement based on weight or mass. 
Yeah, I was thinking of the 1ml insulin syringes. A tenth of the syringe is obviously .1ml or 10iu of most insulins. You can't say it's 100mcg or whatever of GH or insulin though, since the IU represent biological activity, like you say.

Heck yeah the math gets confusing!

Since you can't OD on GH it should be easy and not dangerous to try and see how much the cartridge is depressed with 13 clicks. It should be depressed about 10th of the way.

I remember about 10 years ago when I had a few Simplexx cartridges and I shot it with a 1.5ml Humalog insulin pen so I had to calculate the proper amount of clicks. Not hard to do.