Author Topic: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?  (Read 4102 times)

headhuntersix

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Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« on: February 22, 2008, 01:43:44 PM »
During tonight's debate, Barack Obama related this stunning anecdote:


You know, I've heard from an Army captain who was the head of a rifle platoon--supposed to have 39 men in a rifle platoon. Ended up being sent to Afghanistan with 24 because 15 of those soldiers had been sent to Iraq.  And as a consequence, they didn't have enough ammunition, they didn't have enough Humvees. They were actually capturing Taliban weapons, because it was easier to get Taliban weapons than it was for them to get properly equipped by our current commander in chief.

The truth:

The Army captain, a West Point graduate, did a tour in a hot area of eastern Afghanistan from the Summer of 2003 through Spring 2004.
Prior to deployment the Captain -- then a Lieutenant -- took command of a rifle platoon at Fort Drum. When he took command, the platoon had 39 members, but -- in ones and twos -- 15 members of the platoon were re-assigned to other units. He knows of 10 of those 15 for sure who went to Iraq, and he suspects the other five did as well.
The platoon was sent to Afghanistan with 24 men.
"We should have deployed with 39," he told me, "we should have gotten replacements. But we didn't. And that was pretty consistent across the battalion."
He adds that maybe a half-dozen of the 15 were replaced by the Fall of 2003, months after they arrived in Afghanistan, but never all 15.
As for the weapons and humvees, there are two distinct periods in this, as he explains -- before deployment, and afterwards.
At Fort Drum, in training, "we didn't have access to heavy weapons or the ammunition for the weapons, or humvees to train before we deployed."
What ammunition?
40 mm automatic grenade launcher ammunition for the MK-19, and ammunition for the .50 caliber M-2 machine gun ("50 cal.")
"We weren't able to train in the way we needed to train," he says. When the platoon got to Afghanistan they had three days to learn.
They also didn't have the humvees they were supposed to have both before deployment and once they were in Afghanistan, the Captain says.
We should have had 4 up-armored humvees," he said. "We were supposed to. But at most we had three operable humvees, and it was usually just two."
So what did they do? "To get the rest of the platoon to the fight," he says, "we would use Toyota Hilux pickup trucks or unarmored flatbed humvees." Sometimes with sandbags, sometimes without.
Also in Afghanistan they had issues getting parts for their MK-19s and their 50-cals. Getting parts or ammunition for their standard rifles was not a problem.
"It was very difficult to get any parts in theater," he says, "because parts are prioritized to the theater where they were needed most -- so they were going to Iraq not Afghanistan."
"The purpose of going after the Taliban was not to get their weapons," he said, but on occasion they used Taliban weapons. Sometimes AK-47s, and they also mounted a Soviet-model DShK (or "Dishka") on one of their humvees instead of their 50 cal.

The problem with all of this. Obama made it seem like it happened last week or still going on. It was 2003-2004. We were invading Iraq. Nobody had up armored humvess..nobody. There was no threat. Its only in the last 2 years have IEDs been a major problem or (bigger anyway) in Afghanistan anyway. Everybody uses Hilux trucks....everybody. Everybody is short of men. These guys were pulled for Iraq..so what. None of this matters..what matters is that Obama made it seem like it was last week.



L

Dos Equis

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Re: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2008, 01:55:40 PM »
I really hope this guy does not become Commander in Chief. 

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Re: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2008, 02:03:27 PM »
There's a good chance, either him or hillary and the crying game.  Unless McCain stops looking like a toad.

headhuntersix

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Re: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2008, 02:12:51 PM »
The other thing this illustrates his how naive to the militray and its workings his campaign is. How many people had pass this up the chain to make it to his talking points. If I were him, with his record or lack there of, I'd make damm sure I understood how the Services work. Even just to be able to accurately relate this story. Captains don't command platoons..units don't use captured weapon as a day to day thing. Unless ur SOF, a normal anal Infantry unit Cdr would go ballistic if he saw guys using AKs on a regular basis. We'd also have heard this story before.

As a Tanker, we have M16-A2's. They are pretty hard to stash in a Tank. We came across some Marines that had found a stash of AK's (in the airborne configuration) with folding stocks. We grabed some and used em as we pushed toward Bagdad. We got rid of them as soon as more of the HQ elements caught up to the line units. This happened all over the place with tankers. The grunts had priority with 5.56 and we have 240-s that fire 7.62. It worked but u can't get away with shit like this unless ur in heavy combat because, again, the regualr army is anal as hell.
L

Al Doggity

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Re: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2008, 02:37:08 PM »
When Obama answered this question he specifically noted that it was when Afghanistan resources were diverted to the Iraq war. Anyone who can put 2 and 2 together would have realized this was a few years ago. The purpose of the story was to  point out how Bush's poor judgement has affected the country. He actually ended the anecdote by noting that he advocated different policies over the past few years.

From HH's link:
Quote
The problem with all of this. Obama made it seem like it happened last week or still going on. It was 2003-2004. We were invading Iraq. Nobody had up armored humvess..nobody. There was no threat. Its only in the last 2 years have IEDs been a major problem or (bigger anyway) in Afghanistan anyway. Everybody uses Hilux trucks....everybody. Everybody is short of men. These guys were pulled for Iraq..so what. None of this matters..what matters is that Obama made it seem like it was last week.

WRONG.

From the captain's interview:

"We should have had 4 up-armored humvees," he said. "We were supposed to. But at most we had three operable humvees, and it was usually just two."

then there's this:

""we didn't have access to heavy weapons or the ammunition for the weapons, or humvees to train before we deployed.""

and this:









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Re: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2008, 02:51:24 PM »
The other thing this illustrates his how naive to the militray and its workings his campaign is. How many people had pass this up the chain to make it to his talking points. If I were him, with his record or lack there of, I'd make damm sure I understood how the Services work. Even just to be able to accurately relate this story. Captains don't command platoons..units don't use captured weapon as a day to day thing. Unless ur SOF, a normal anal Infantry unit Cdr would go ballistic if he saw guys using AKs on a regular basis. We'd also have heard this story before.

As a Tanker, we have M16-A2's. They are pretty hard to stash in a Tank. We came across some Marines that had found a stash of AK's (in the airborne configuration) with folding stocks. We grabed some and used em as we pushed toward Bagdad. We got rid of them as soon as more of the HQ elements caught up to the line units. This happened all over the place with tankers. The grunts had priority with 5.56 and we have 240-s that fire 7.62. It worked but u can't get away with shit like this unless ur in heavy combat because, again, the regualr army is anal as hell.

I agree.  He at least needs to be able to speak the language. 

headhuntersix

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Re: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2008, 02:57:06 PM »
Very few units train with 40mm....they fam fire and thats it. Nobody had up-armored humvee's going into Iraq. There are guys from 10th Mountain, who was in charge over there at that time, roasting this guy. Um shit breaks....shit breaks all the time...I guess he just threw his mechanics under the bus. If that was his point he could have easily made it with an accurate annecdote. I think his point was not that this happened years ago but that Iraq has diverted resources period. He never gave a time frame..making it seem that this was a recent story.
L

Al Doggity

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Re: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2008, 03:33:47 PM »
I think his point was not that this happened years ago but that Iraq has diverted resources period. He never gave a time frame..making it seem that this was a recent story.

Then  you didn't watch the debate. Unfortunately , the only 3 clips I could find posted on youtube are from people pushing a rightwing agenda, so unfortunately they are edited accordingly and out of context. But if you watch until  the end of this one minute clip,  you will get a better idea of what his point actually is.



Furthermore, a story about the taliban and diverting troops to iraq really doesn't require that he give a timeframe. More people would probably assume that it was an older story. A lot of people are unaware that that war is still going on.

calmus

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Re: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2008, 04:43:42 PM »
I agree.  He at least needs to be able to speak the language. 

Yeah, 'cause all of our other presidents have done it so well?  ::)


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Re: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2008, 04:46:34 PM »
Just write in Ron Paul on the ballot, when you vote. ;D

calmus

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Re: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2008, 04:48:15 PM »
Just write in Ron Paul on the ballot, when you vote. ;D

I'll have to see his scores on the ASVAB first. 

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Re: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2008, 04:50:37 PM »
Yeah, 'cause all of our other presidents have done it so well?  ::)



I see.  Prior faults justify present faults.  ::)

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Re: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2008, 04:51:48 PM »
I'll have to see his scores on the ASVAB first. 

He's a doctor and was already in the military so I gues she would do better then the rest if he took one.

But anyway, you guys think that all presidents should have some military experience? I think so.

calmus

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Re: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2008, 04:53:09 PM »
I see.  Prior faults justify present faults.  ::)

Didn't hear you join in the gripe-fest before? it's not like Bush didn't provide the opportunity for you to share this nugget before..... ::)

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Re: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2008, 04:57:00 PM »
He's a doctor and was already in the military so I gues she would do better then the rest if he took one.

But anyway, you guys think that all presidents should have some military experience? I think so.

Lincoln and FDRoosevelt...the two greatest....did not have "military experience." 

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Re: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2008, 05:01:02 PM »
Didn't hear you join in the gripe-fest before? it's not like Bush didn't provide the opportunity for you to share this nugget before..... ::)

So what.  This thread isn't about Bush.  Or me.  ::)

calmus

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Re: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2008, 05:06:48 PM »
So what.  This thread isn't about Bush.  Or me.  ::)

Everything you say says something about you.

Based on my posts about Obama, et al., people call me arrogant, hot-headed, one-sided, etc...and they're right to an extent.

You on the other hand have apparently mastered the "art" of being perfectly detached.  How wonderful for us! ::)



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Re: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2008, 05:10:20 PM »
Lincoln and FDRoosevelt...the two greatest....did not have "military experience." 

The greatest according to you and a few other people who may study history, but it's just opinion.
 
Don't you think that having an actual experience in something might make you think things through a little more?

Example.  Bush had actual war experience, he might not be dragging this war on forever or he might not even have sent the troops to Iraq on the info he had, etc... because he was in "the shit" or at least had some training.


Dos Equis

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Re: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2008, 05:17:47 PM »
Everything you say says something about you.

Based on my posts about Obama, et al., people call me arrogant, hot-headed, one-sided, etc...and they're right to an extent.

You on the other hand have apparently mastered the "art" of being perfectly detached.  How wonderful for us! ::)




Not necessarily.  Even if everything you said did say something about you, the topic of the thread is Obama. 

I would add "Grammar Nazi" to that list.  :)

I am NOT detached.  I am quite upset that my view of the airport, mountains, and ocean has been obstructed by vog all day.  Stupid volcano.   >:(

calmus

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Re: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2008, 05:18:51 PM »
The greatest according to you and a few other people who may study history, but it's just opinion.
 
Don't you think that having an actual experience in something might make you think things through a little more?

Example.  Bush had actual war experience, he might not be dragging this war on forever or he might not even have sent the troops to Iraq on the info he had, etc... because he was in "the shit" or at least had some training.



It's not just opinion.  That's being too subjective.

And having experience with war doesn't mean that you'll automatically be more prudent. 

I have a close relative who did a tour with the Marine Corps in Iraq last year, and he came back all "pumped up" and ready to do it again.  That's his "temperament" or whatever you want to call it.

Who knows what impact real military service would have had on Bush?....it might have made him more hawkish....

USGRant knew how to beat Lee (a great general, and a great man), but he was a lousy fuckin president.

calmus

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Re: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2008, 05:30:57 PM »
Not necessarily.  Even if everything you said did say something about you, the topic of the thread is Obama. 



This thread is not just about Obama....it's also about posters' attitudes towards him. 

If I came on here, and I felt that there was some degree of objectivity, I would be much more laid-back. 

But there's something in the way you and some other people talk about him that doesn't sit right with me. I can't tell if people respond the way they do because of his race, or because of his relative youth, or because of his success.... It's not as obvious with you, but that might be because you're more sophisticated than our friend HH6. 

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Re: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2008, 06:05:22 PM »
This thread is not just about Obama....it's also about posters' attitudes towards him. 

If I came on here, and I felt that there was some degree of objectivity, I would be much more laid-back. 

But there's something in the way you and some other people talk about him that doesn't set right with me. I can't tell if people respond the way they do because of his race, or because of his relative youth, or because of his success.... It's not as obvious with you, but that might be because you're more sophisticated than our friend HH6. 

Headhunter is a smart, educated patriot. 

I don't believe anyone mentioned Obama's race in this thread.  I was talking about his lack of military experience and how he sounded pretty bad when talking about the military.  That only highlights his lack of experience.  But my main problem with him isn't his lack of experience, it's his ideas.  He's really not a friend of the business community.  He wants to play class warfare.  I think he's a borderline socialist. 

calmus

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Re: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2008, 07:05:17 PM »
Headhunter is a smart, educated patriot. 

We'll have to disagree on that.  I thought he was fine, until he made his ridiculous posts about Obama's name, relatives, and "endorsements"....then I realized that his America has very little in common with mine.  Also, what "smart" person thinks like that?

Quote
I don't believe anyone mentioned Obama's race in this thread.

Maybe it's just the general tone of the place. There's like a thousand "No one will vote for a black" posts on the G&O. 

Quote
I was talking about his lack of military experience and how he sounded pretty bad when talking about the military.  That only highlights his lack of experience.

There's no "experience" that prepares you for being president.  See Herbert Hoover...... 

Quote
But my main problem with him isn't his lack of experience, it's his ideas.  He's really not a friend of the business community.  He wants to play class warfare.  I think he's a borderline socialist.

I really don't understand this perspective.  I've worked hard to get where I am, and I'm not about to let someone take what I've earned away from me. But I will invest in our future...a better-educated/healthier population ultimately means more $ in my pockets. 

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Re: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2008, 10:26:30 PM »
I'll have to see his scores on the ASVAB first. 

RP = Army captain or something like that, right?

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Re: Obama: US troops Scavenging Weapons?
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2008, 11:28:13 PM »
We'll have to disagree on that.  I thought he was fine, until he made his ridiculous posts about Obama's name, relatives, and "endorsements"....then I realized that his America has very little in common with mine.  Also, what "smart" person thinks like that?

Maybe it's just the general tone of the place. There's like a thousand "No one will vote for a black" posts on the G&O. 

There's no "experience" that prepares you for being president.  See Herbert Hoover...... 

I really don't understand this perspective.  I've worked hard to get where I am, and I'm not about to let someone take what I've earned away from me. But I will invest in our future...a better-educated/healthier population ultimately means more $ in my pockets. 

Headhunter is a college graduate, is serving his country, and has served in combat.  He gets major (so to speak) props in my book.  If you can't respect what he has done and is doing for your country then you have a problem. 

Saying "no one" will vote for a half black man is an overstatement, but I've said many times his ethnic background will prevent him from being president.  We'll have to see how this plays out, but we still have race issues in this country.

I think a person with military experience is better suited to be Commander in Chief than someone who has never served. 

If you don't want someone taking what you have earned, then why support Obama?  Haven't you been listening to him?  He is all about redistribution of wealth, like any big government liberal.  He wants to "roll back" tax cuts for "the wealthy."  He wants to raise taxes on businesses too.  He wants to give as much government money (i.e., our tax dollars) to as many people as possible.  He wants a government takeover of the entire healthcare system.     
 
I don't have a problem with investing in our future, but we already do that.  If we didn't write a single new law or change any existing laws everyone in this country would still have unlimited potential.  What we need (at least me anyway) is for the government to stay out of our way as much as possible, unless it's performing necessary services (e.g., defense, public safety, roads, etc.).