I sat and spoke with a vet all night tonight...

[240 is Back]

Wow, I don't feel comfy voting for obama one bit.
Mccain either.

He hated politics, but in the course of the conversation, wow... I dunno... Clinon might be the best bet because she'll bring Bill with her, according to him.  That's what he kept going back to... military folks just want to go back to the clinton years.  This kid had been to iraq, afgh and germany, had a serious injury and wow... incredible to talk to him about being shot at, killing kids with bombs and guns, the shit he had to do. 

I have a newfound respect for military and those who have served over there.  I have a newfound disgust for anyone who talks about all the wars we should wage, but doesn't serve.  This kid saw horrible things, did horrible things, and his soul is scarred.  He just wanted to go back to the clinton years, and he said everyone he knows feels the same way.

[stormshadow]

Wow, I don't feel comfy voting for obama one bit.
Mccain either.

He hated politics, but in the course of the conversation, wow... I dunno... Clinon might be the best bet because she'll bring Bill with her, according to him.  That's what he kept going back to... military folks just want to go back to the clinton years.  This kid had been to iraq, afgh and germany, had a serious injury and wow... incredible to talk to him about being shot at, killing kids with bombs and guns, the shit he had to do. 

I have a newfound respect for military and those who have served over there.  I have a newfound disgust for anyone who talks about all the wars we should wage, but doesn't serve.  This kid saw horrible things, did horrible things, and his soul is scarred.  He just wanted to go back to the clinton years, and he said everyone he knows feels the same way.

I made mention of a draft and people here laughed at me.  I work with a Iraq War Vet.  These guys don't want to be there and they don't want to go back.

He also laughed when I told him a guy on a message board (you) claim that we have ownership of 80% of the oil.  He said the insurgents take what they want, drill holes into pipelines, and everytime oil crosses a boarder, there is a theft tax to pay.

It's nice to see that you've finally had some discussion with a real player.  That type of thing always adds depth to a discussion, instead of everyone repeating what they read on the internet.

[240 is Back]

yeah, it woke up me a bit too, to the reality of things.

[Deicide]

yeah, it woke up me a bit too, to the reality of things.

Welcome to the...well you know.

Needless wars, as Ron Paul likes to say...

[Bindare_Dundat]

yeah, it woke up me a bit too, to the reality of things.

So still think going into other countries illegally and doing whatever the fuck the government wants is beneficial for your existance?

[Brixtonbulldog]

Wow, I don't feel comfy voting for obama one bit.
Mccain either.

He hated politics, but in the course of the conversation, wow... I dunno... Clinon might be the best bet because she'll bring Bill with her, according to him.  That's what he kept going back to... military folks just want to go back to the clinton years.  This kid had been to iraq, afgh and germany, had a serious injury and wow... incredible to talk to him about being shot at, killing kids with bombs and guns, the shit he had to do. 

I have a newfound respect for military and those who have served over there.  I have a newfound disgust for anyone who talks about all the wars we should wage, but doesn't serve.  This kid saw horrible things, did horrible things, and his soul is scarred.  He just wanted to go back to the clinton years, and he said everyone he knows feels the same way.

The military has had a rough time during the Bush admin in a way since deployments in all services were increased in both frequency and duration.  Workloads were high and things like morale and all kinds of personal issues started to suffer.

Although I support Bush, the war, and all that jazz it really sucked when I was in and we were under tremendous pressure and going to sea every two weeks.  Almost everyone in my div who was married now is not.  People don't have time for anything but work and the stress was unbelievable.

Most people I worked with could be called conservative and supported Bush but we all agreed that when Clinton was prez the lifestyle of a servicemember, at least the ones not worried about full support in a combat zone (remember somalia?), was far more mundane and allowed the time for other things.  I think the change was completely necessary since 9/11 changed EVERYTHING about how we do things but it's rough nonetheless.

[240 is Back]

he wasn't all that political.  just said that leaders will make decisions and he just follows orders.  invading iraq for oil is about you, me, his, all our benefits.  you benefit the same whether you're a warmongering neocon, or bleeding heart liberal.  

it was sad more than anything else.  on the boards, the war is all about numbers and philosophy.  talking to this kid was somber.  it's just about killing people and almost getting killed.  he was on the ground as a marine in baghdad for 6 months or something.  the war stories weren't braggard, they weren't sad, they weren't politicized, as both parties do.  they were just acceptance of the situation.

messed up.  tough kid, but sad too.  never wants to go back, says everyone he served with, none of them want to go back, but they will if called upon.  they want clinton to win because those running things now made these wars instead of solving the problems.  Clinton solved problems with military force.  Bush makes wars for business.

[240 is Back]

Most people I worked with could be called conservative and supported Bush but we all agreed that when Clinton was prez the lifestyle of a servicemember, at least the ones not worried about full support in a combat zone (remember somalia?), was far more mundane and allowed the time for other things.  I think the change was completely necessary since 9/11 changed EVERYTHING about how we do things but it's rough nonetheless.

that seemed to be what he talked about too.  he didn't care about the reasons for war, said they are irrelevant.   he just said some admins want war and some dont.  bush wants war, clinton didn't.

made me think about those here who say we should bomb hugo, iran, etc etc... they WANT war.  Many here do not.  You fall into one of these 2 camps.  You want war, or you dont.  Clinton didn't want war, and did all he could to avoid them.  Bush?  Well, taleban offered to deliver osama in a pine box to NYC and we declined.  Saddam tried to surrender during that 48hour pre-war window, and we put a JDAM in the building he called from.  bush wants war, plain and simple.

[figgs]

It's really a hell of an experience to sit down and be told one's story of time on the war front. I met an older dude on a cruise who told me all about it too. He told me things like how his mind is so scarred that when he's with his kids he can easily imagine them blown to bits. I consider myself lucky to have been trusted to listen to such an emotional story. His whole family was with him on that cruise, even his oldest sons, who I had seen wearing their uniforms. He told me he was expected to go back to Iraq in a few short months. I just hope they're all alright.

[240 is Back]

yeah, i dont know what my position is on the war, but it is changing.  I dont like an obama now, nor mccain.  too far extremes.  It used to be all about the number, but now, those dont make sense or matter.

the war is fucked up, but its necessary accoridng to those who make decisions for us.

i dont know what more I can add to that.

[Straw Man]

he wasn't all that political.  just said that leaders will make decisions and he just follows orders.  invading iraq for oil is about you, me, his, all our benefits.  you benefit the same whether you're a warmongering neocon, or bleeding heart liberal.  

benefit so far = 300% increase in the costs of gas with spill over inflation on many other essential goods.  Massive increase in Federal Debt, thousands of dead soldiers, many many thousands more who are maimed or suffer from mental issues.   

Have I missed any other benefits?

[shootfighter1]

No strawman, it was a disaster.

[240 is Back]

a place for bases when the saudis kick us out.  oil in the dollar and the force in place to kick their ass if they decide to show us the door before we've regained our 'costs' via oil revenues.

you honestly don't think an admin smart enough into letting them throw an entirely elective/non-necessary war would actually do it for no reason, do you?  there's been a lot of evidence of us handing guns to both sides of the insurgency, you don't think that's by accident either, do ya?

[Decker]

he wasn't all that political.  just said that leaders will make decisions and he just follows orders.  invading iraq for oil is about you, me, his, all our benefits.  you benefit the same whether you're a warmongering neocon, or bleeding heart liberal.  

...

I still don't see the benefits.  StrawMan points out some of the terrible costs.  Where I am able, I do nothing to support the war or profit from its blood gains.  I buy Venezualan gasoline.  I don't buy Chinese imports.  Econcomically, that's about it for me.

The illegal booty from Iraq is not a necessary evil that benefits us all.  That's just a happy-face solution to assuage guilt.

[240 is Back]

I still don't see the benefits.  StrawMan points out some of the terrible costs.  Where I am able, I do nothing to support the war or profit from its blood gains.  I buy Venezualan gasoline.  I don't buy Chinese imports.  Econcomically, that's about it for me.

The illegal booty from Iraq is not a necessary evil that benefits us all.  That's just a happy-face solution to assuage guilt.

it keeps the dollar alive.  look at the slide we are having at the moment.  the ONLY way we can keep the dollar alive in the world is to keep it sold in dollars. 

Rmemeber that MEX and RUS both went bankurupt once in the last 13 years.  It happens.  What is the value of your deed, your portfolio, and your college degree when your nation declares bankruptcy?  The answer to this, I have no clue...

[Straw Man]

it keeps the dollar alive.  look at the slide we are having at the moment.  the ONLY way we can keep the dollar alive in the world is to keep it sold in dollars. 

Rmemeber that MEX and RUS both went bankurupt once in the last 13 years.  It happens.  What is the value of your deed, your portfolio, and your college degree when your nation declares bankruptcy?  The answer to this, I have no clue...

The best thing we can do for the $ is to get out of Iraq

second best would be for the Fed to raise rates but that ain't gonna happen

[240 is Back]

The best thing we can do for the $ is to get out of Iraq

Do you believe that iraqi oil being sold by Chinese companies using the Euro is good for the US economy?

[Decker]

it keeps the dollar alive.  look at the slide we are having at the moment.  the ONLY way we can keep the dollar alive in the world is to keep it sold in dollars. 

Rmemeber that MEX and RUS both went bankurupt once in the last 13 years.  It happens.  What is the value of your deed, your portfolio, and your college degree when your nation declares bankruptcy?  The answer to this, I have no clue...

I thought that the high costs of fuel undermine the value of the dollar?  http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/06/27/business/bux.php

That along with the Fed's ill-advised multiple interest rate cuts are driving the dollar into the ground.

If there is a benefit to the Iraqi oil, I just don't see the bang for the buck.

[stormshadow]

I thought that the high costs of fuel undermine the value of the dollar?  http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/06/27/business/bux.php

That along with the Fed's ill-advised multiple interest rate cuts are driving the dollar into the ground.

If there is a benefit to the Iraqi oil, I just don't see the bang for the buck.

It's kinda like the local neighboorhood playing kickball with your ball.  Yeah it may be half flat and doesn't bounce well, but for the most part it gets the job done.  You know if they decide to use your friends ball that they really don't care if you showed up to play anymore.

The Iraq war is keeping our ball in play.  Once oil goes off the dollar we have some SERIOUS problems.  Far more serious than 3% interest rates and 6% inflation.

Every country that buys oil is taking the load of our inflated currency, when the value of the dollar goes down, the price of oil goes up.  Imagine if they got the bright idea to take oil off of the dollar and sell it in a more stable currency with lower inflation... Wait, Saddam already had that idea.

[calmus]

Wow, I don't feel comfy voting for obama one bit.
Mccain either.

He hated politics, but in the course of the conversation, wow... I dunno... Clinon might be the best bet because she'll bring Bill with her, according to him.  That's what he kept going back to... military folks just want to go back to the clinton years.  This kid had been to iraq, afgh and germany, had a serious injury and wow... incredible to talk to him about being shot at, killing kids with bombs and guns, the shit he had to do. 

I have a newfound respect for military and those who have served over there.  I have a newfound disgust for anyone who talks about all the wars we should wage, but doesn't serve.  This kid saw horrible things, did horrible things, and his soul is scarred.  He just wanted to go back to the clinton years, and he said everyone he knows feels the same way.

I was talking to my three year old niece yesterday, and she said she prefers McCain because his hair is white like grandpa's.  So that's who I will be going with. 

[War-Horse]

War begets more War.  The drop in the dollar has to be intentional.   The average american would strt buying more consumer goods if he wasnt worried that gas for work was going to take a hundred dollar bill out of his wallet this week.

He will watch how he spends his money.

If we could cap gasoline at a dollar a gallon for awhile people would start traveling more and buying goods at walmart again.

It could be in the name of a "national crisis" to make this happen.   But no, the oil companies wil continue to gouge and force the dollar to collapse for some unknown reason.

And just wait when other countries stop using the dollar as currency for oil, 240......Ive been saying it for months.   Some countries will do  anything to see the US fail......It makes it easiar when they see the administration condoning the collapse by not regulating fuel costs.  It would be an  easy solution to fix this economy.

[Straw Man]

This is a good article on the relationship between oil, gold and the dollar.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119941453085566759.html

[JBGRAY]

But no, the oil companies wil continue to gouge and force the dollar to collapse for some unknown reason.

I don't agree with that at all.  Oil companies aren't gouging people intentionally.  Hell, just look at what Exxon Mobil paid in taxes alone last year.  Big Oil has to search, drill, extract, transport, refine, then transport the final product to the tanks.  This also doesn't include the various products made from petroleum(such as graphite and asphalt).  They provide jobs, new technologies, maintain and develop new equipment, and keep us maintaining our way of life. 

Last I checked, the US government doesn't do any of the above.  They aren't extracting and shipping oil.  Instead, they simply tax Exxon alone nearly $30 Billion just because they...........can.  If Exxon doesn't pay, people go to prison. 

The federal tax per gallon of gas is at 18.4 cents according to tax charts.  State taxes in addition range from 10 cents per gallon all the way up to around 32 cents per gallon.  So that's abouve 40 cents in taxes per gallon of gas(I'm not sure if there is local taxes levied on gasoline).  Now, oil companies on average make a profit of .08% profit per dollar, or, if gas is $3 per gallon, net profit is 2.5 cents.  Percentagewise, this is far below when you compare just exactly who is gouging who.  Here is a nice summary.

Based upon a $3.00 gallon of gasoline, the average break-down is as follows.

Gasoline Retailer $.01 cents per gallon
Oil Company $.08 cents per gallon
Refining $.29 cents per gallon
Marketing/Distribution $.32 cents per gallon
Taxes $.59 cents per gallon
Cost of crude $1.71 per gallon (delivered)

[Decker]

I don't agree with that at all.  Oil companies aren't gouging people intentionally.  Hell, just look at what Exxon Mobil paid in taxes alone last year.  Big Oil has to search, drill, extract, transport, refine, then transport the final product to the tanks.  This also doesn't include the various products made from petroleum(such as graphite and asphalt).  They provide jobs, new technologies, maintain and develop new equipment, and keep us maintaining our way of life. 

Last I checked, the US government doesn't do any of the above.  They aren't extracting and shipping oil.  Instead, they simply tax Exxon alone nearly $30 Billion just because they...........can.  If Exxon doesn't pay, people go to prison. 

The federal tax per gallon of gas is at 18.4 cents according to tax charts.  State taxes in addition range from 10 cents per gallon all the way up to around 32 cents per gallon.  So that's abouve 40 cents in taxes per gallon of gas(I'm not sure if there is local taxes levied on gasoline).  Now, oil companies on average make a profit of .08% profit per dollar, or, if gas is $3 per gallon, net profit is 2.5 cents.  Percentagewise, this is far below when you compare just exactly who is gouging who.  Here is a nice summary.

Based upon a $3.00 gallon of gasoline, the average break-down is as follows.

Gasoline Retailer $.01 cents per gallon
Oil Company $.08 cents per gallon
Refining $.29 cents per gallon
Marketing/Distribution $.32 cents per gallon
Taxes $.59 cents per gallon
Cost of crude $1.71 per gallon (delivered)

I notice you didn't include the billions and billions of dollars of federal subsidy monies given to big oil by our government.  Plus the US taxation of oil royalties is about 40% of the take compared to the worldwide average of 60%+.  Let's not forget the environmental costs borne by the states/people--hundreds of billions of dollars--due to negligent management of oil trafficking.
http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/fuel_economy/subsidizing-big-oil.html

[JOHN MATRIX]

so why the fuck would hillary be any better than obama in that regard
i cant fathom why so few people dont see through her facade. she is the most blatantely phoney politician ive ever seen