Diabetes and BB

[Slintowin4424]

DO you guys think it is possible for insulin to bennefit a diabetic in bb the way it would a non diabetic?

[Slintowin4424]

I guess I will start my own trend and teach myself HOw are you slin

[Vet]

I guess I will start my own trend and teach myself HOw are you slin

I'll give you my opinion on your question later today, when I've got more time to write an answer.   

[Slintowin4424]

Sweet man thanks a lot.....

[Vet]

DO you guys think it is possible for insulin to benefit a diabetic in bb the way it would a non diabetic?

Sorry its taken so long to get back to this---as some of you know, one of my research interests is the management of diabetes in nondomestic species, with most of the principles of human diabetes being applied to the other animals.  One thing that holds true with insulin in all mammalian species has essentially the same function.  Herbivores, ruminants like cattle and hind gut fermenters like horses, have a slightly different effect because of the "continuous" secretion of energy (glucose) from the bacteria in their GI tract breaking down plant materials, but by and large the function is the same with strict herbivores as it is with omnivores. 

I think there is a night and day difference between a diabetic and a non diabetic weight training athlete.   Homeostasis is the key.  Remember blood glucose is strictly managed in the body because glucose is the fuel for the brain.  The body has a very good mechanism for lowering blood glucose if its too high (insulin)  and raising it if its too low (release of stored glycogen, epinephrine, cortisol secretion), but the ultimate goal is to keep blood glucose within a set range at all times so the brain has the fuel it needs to work.  If the brain works, then so does the rest of the body.   

This is one of the reasons I've questioned (in some cases severely) the taking of insulin by nondiabetic bodybuilders.  There is no denying the anabolic properties of insulin, but many people seem to forget it not only stimulates muscle growth by facilitating the uptake of glucose and amino acids, it also stimulates fat storage.  Simply put, insulin will make you store body fat and it will severely inhibit bodyfat loss in the absence of an extreme diet.  Not only that, but when a person takes exogenous insulin, their blood sugar will decrease from the insulin they are taking.  The body will compensate immediately by release of epinephrine, cortisol, and stored glycogen.  This is a major stress response.  Not only that, but low blood sugar, left unchecked will result in loss of consciousness, seizures, and eventually death.  Stimulation of these stress hormones are something you don't necessarily want, especially if you are doing it after strenuous exercise because it will inhibit recovery. 

So how do the pro bodybuilders get by with taking insulin?  I personally think that several of them may have undiagnosed insulin resistance due to HGH and excessive anabolic steroid administration.  This insulin insensitivity means it will take more to have an effect, thus enabling them to inject the volumes of insulin that they do and "get by with it" without dying.   I also think there is probably a whole lot more minor incidents that are simply unreported.  Lets face it, high level bodybuilding is by and large a drug infused sport that because of the legal reprecussions of the drugs, many, many things are not talked about publically. 

Its well documented that HGH administration results in decreased insulin sensitivity.  Anabolic steroids are a bit more complex because androgens like testosterone will, at lower doses, actually sensitize the body to insulin---a prime example of this are the Type II diabetic males who are testosterone deficient who then go on HRT and miraculously have stabilized blood sugars.  At much higher doses, anabolic steroids seem to have a desensitization effect for insulin, meaning that they can cause insulin resistance.  Put those two together and you've got a recipe for Type II diabetes, which is also very well documented as largely being undiagnosed in many of the people who have the disease. 

Now how does this apply to a diabetic?   The problem with diabetics is that they are missing a major link in blood glucose homeostasis.  I think the absolute goal of a diabetic should be to have normal blood glucose levels or as close to normal as physically possible.   That person will then be in an optimal state for muscle growth and recovery.  Will the insulin help .  Will it make a diabetic 'grow bigger'?  I didnt' think you can make that assessment because if a nondiabetic bodybuilder doesn't take insulin, they are a nondiabetic bodybuilder.  If a diabetic bodybuilder doesn't take insulin, they are a ketoacidotic, dying bodybuilder.  You cant run a control on the study because of the specificity of the disease and the simple fact that the body needs insulin for normal homeostasis. 

What about the diabetic bodybuilder who juices?  I think a Type I diabetic is an idiot to take HGH because of its effects on blood glucose.   All you need is Type I diabetes with insulin resistance.   Thats a recipe for elevated blood glucose levels and complications from diabetes, which will keep you from doing anything as a diabetic.  As far as the anabolic steroids go, I'm still undecided on that one.   Generalized testosterone deficiency--typically secondary, is not necessarily uncommon in long term Type I diabetics with good blood glucose control.   No one knows why that occurs--its thought to be due to vascular damage within the pituitary gland and/or the testicle, but that hasn't been proven.   These diabetics develop insulin resistance secondary to low Test levels.  That insulin resistance will go away when they begin HRT doses of testosterone. 


I hope that answered your question, if it didn't, let me know.   

[Slintowin4424]

Sorry its taken so long to get back to this---as some of you know, one of my research interests is the management of diabetes in nondomestic species, with most of the principles of human diabetes being applied to the other animals.  One thing that holds true with insulin in all mammalian species has essentially the same function.  Herbivores, ruminants like cattle and hind gut fermenters like horses, have a slightly different effect because of the "continuous" secretion of energy (glucose) from the bacteria in their GI tract breaking down plant materials, but by and large the function is the same with strict herbivores as it is with omnivores. 

I think there is a night and day difference between a diabetic and a non diabetic weight training athlete.   Homeostasis is the key.  Remember blood glucose is strictly managed in the body because glucose is the fuel for the brain.  The body has a very good mechanism for lowering blood glucose if its too high (insulin)  and raising it if its too low (release of stored glycogen, epinephrine, cortisol secretion), but the ultimate goal is to keep blood glucose within a set range at all times so the brain has the fuel it needs to work.  If the brain works, then so does the rest of the body.   

This is one of the reasons I've questioned (in some cases severely) the taking of insulin by nondiabetic bodybuilders.  There is no denying the anabolic properties of insulin, but many people seem to forget it not only stimulates muscle growth by facilitating the uptake of glucose and amino acids, it also stimulates fat storage.  Simply put, insulin will make you store body fat and it will severely inhibit bodyfat loss in the absence of an extreme diet.  Not only that, but when a person takes exogenous insulin, their blood sugar will decrease from the insulin they are taking.  The body will compensate immediately by release of epinephrine, cortisol, and stored glycogen.  This is a major stress response.  Not only that, but low blood sugar, left unchecked will result in loss of consciousness, seizures, and eventually death.  Stimulation of these stress hormones are something you don't necessarily want, especially if you are doing it after strenuous exercise because it will inhibit recovery. 

So how do the pro bodybuilders get by with taking insulin?  I personally think that several of them may have undiagnosed insulin resistance due to HGH and excessive anabolic steroid administration.  This insulin insensitivity means it will take more to have an effect, thus enabling them to inject the volumes of insulin that they do and "get by with it" without dying.   I also think there is probably a whole lot more minor incidents that are simply unreported.  Lets face it, high level bodybuilding is by and large a drug infused sport that because of the legal reprecussions of the drugs, many, many things are not talked about publically. 

Its well documented that HGH administration results in decreased insulin sensitivity.  Anabolic steroids are a bit more complex because androgens like testosterone will, at lower doses, actually sensitize the body to insulin---a prime example of this are the Type II diabetic males who are testosterone deficient who then go on HRT and miraculously have stabilized blood sugars.  At much higher doses, anabolic steroids seem to have a desensitization effect for insulin, meaning that they can cause insulin resistance.  Put those two together and you've got a recipe for Type II diabetes, which is also very well documented as largely being undiagnosed in many of the people who have the disease. 

Now how does this apply to a diabetic?   The problem with diabetics is that they are missing a major link in blood glucose homeostasis.  I think the absolute goal of a diabetic should be to have normal blood glucose levels or as close to normal as physically possible.   That person will then be in an optimal state for muscle growth and recovery.  Will the insulin help .  Will it make a diabetic 'grow bigger'?  I didnt' think you can make that assessment because if a nondiabetic bodybuilder doesn't take insulin, they are a nondiabetic bodybuilder.  If a diabetic bodybuilder doesn't take insulin, they are a ketoacidotic, dying bodybuilder.  You cant run a control on the study because of the specificity of the disease and the simple fact that the body needs insulin for normal homeostasis. 

What about the diabetic bodybuilder who juices?  I think a Type I diabetic is an idiot to take HGH because of its effects on blood glucose.   All you need is Type I diabetes with insulin resistance.   Thats a recipe for elevated blood glucose levels and complications from diabetes, which will keep you from doing anything as a diabetic.  As far as the anabolic steroids go, I'm still undecided on that one.   Generalized testosterone deficiency--typically secondary, is not necessarily uncommon in long term Type I diabetics with good blood glucose control.   No one knows why that occurs--its thought to be due to vascular damage within the pituitary gland and/or the testicle, but that hasn't been proven.   These diabetics develop insulin resistance secondary to low Test levels.  That insulin resistance will go away when they begin HRT doses of testosterone. 


I hope that answered your question, if it didn't, let me know.   

Probably the longest post I have ever read all the way through.,,,  And let me tell you the only reason I even read it all the way through is because I thought you might say something of value or actually stray towards the question but you didn't thanks for the effort but not even close to the subject

[Princess L]

Probably the longest post I have ever read all the way through.,,,  And let me tell you the only reason I even read it all the way through is because I thought you might say something of value or actually stray towards the question but you didn't thanks for the effort but not even close to the subject

Perhaps you ought to read it again.

[Slintowin4424]

Perhaps you ought to read it again.

I highly doubt that Insulin does one major thing inside everyones body that has to do with bodybuilding diabetic or not it carries amino acids and glycogen to glycogen stores but the question I asked was can diabetis be a benefit for a bodybuilder not tell me what it does I am well aware of that.....

[Vet]

I highly doubt that Insulin does one major thing inside everyones body that has to do with bodybuilding diabetic or not it carries amino acids and glycogen to glycogen stores but the question I asked was can diabetis be a benefit for a bodybuilder not tell me what it does I am well aware of that.....

No thats not what you asked.   If I didn't give you the answer you were looking for, maybe you ought to reread what I posted.  If you are still confused, try reasking the question. 

[Slintowin4424]

DO you guys think it is possible for insulin to bennefit a diabetic in bb the way it would a non diabetic?

HMMM guess it is what I asked

[Vet]

HMMM guess it is what I asked

Why are you being a dumbass? 

[DVSGOD]

Im a diabetic,what would you like to know bro?

I looked at Vets post but it was to long for me to read 

Damm stimulants 

[Slintowin4424]

I am a diabetic too and I was wondering with all the hype surrounding insulin in our sport do you think that we can use it to  our advantage too?

[Vet]

I am a diabetic too and I was wondering with all the hype surrounding insulin in our sport do you think that we can use it to  our advantage too?

I answered that question in my post. 

[Slintowin4424]

I answered that question in my post. 

Vet its ok I promise IM not sad with you    I just wanted to know the answer you didn't answer my question you talked clearly about your beliefs that diabetics should not use slin for growth and told the basics of what insulin does its very valuable information really it is but I must tell you its not what I was looking for....

[Vet]

Vet its ok I promise IM not sad with you    I just wanted to know the answer you didn't answer my question you talked clearly about your beliefs that diabetics should not use slin for growth and told the basics of what insulin does its very valuable information really it is but I must tell you its not what I was looking for....

No, I don't think you read what I wrote, or I wrote something you don't like, so you are trying to get someone else to put up an answer..... so far no one has done it, so make of that what you want.

Here, reread what I posted:

Remember blood glucose is strictly managed in the body because glucose is the fuel for the brain.  The body has a very good mechanism for lowering blood glucose if its too high (insulin)  and raising it if its too low (release of stored glycogen, epinephrine, cortisol secretion), but the ultimate goal is to keep blood glucose within a set range at all times so the brain has the fuel it needs to work. 


Now how does this apply to a diabetic?   The problem with diabetics is that they are missing a major link in blood glucose homeostasis.  I think the absolute goal of a diabetic should be to have normal blood glucose levels or as close to normal as physically possible.   That person will then be in an optimal state for muscle growth and recovery.  Will the insulin help .  Will it make a diabetic 'grow bigger'?  I didnt' think you can make that assessment because if a nondiabetic bodybuilder doesn't take insulin, they are a nondiabetic bodybuilder.  If a diabetic bodybuilder doesn't take insulin, they are a ketoacidotic, dying bodybuilder.  You cant run a control on the study because of the specificity of the disease and the simple fact that the body needs insulin for normal homeostasis. 

Now, let me try again to write things so they are simple enough you'll understand them.  You cannot compare a diabetic and a nondiabetic bodybuilder because of the deficits in energy metabolism that a diabetic has.  You cannot develop a control group by taking away the insulin of a diabetic because they will not be able to manage their diabetes and as a result will lose any and all muscle gains they may be making in the gym.  The diabetic bodybuilder should focus on maintaining as close to normal blood glucoses as possible so as to optimize the environment for muscle growth to occur.  If they have two many episodes of hypoglycemia or they are too high on average blood glucose, they will inhibit muscle growth. 


If you are asking about a diabetic taking "extra" insulin to get an "advantage" from it, I also dont think that will work the same as it does in a nondiabetic, if you buy into the fact that it works at all in a nondiabetic who isnt' using large doses of anabolics and HGH, thus making themselves insulin insensitive.  You absolutely have to consider the fact that the bodies ultimate goal is homeostasis--maintaining blood glucoses within a relatively narrow range. 

Also, taking "extra" insulin isn't the wisest because its not uncommon for diabetics to have problems with managing hypoglycemia--in essence, they don't get the "shaky weak feeling" while being hypoglycemic.  The exact cause isn't well understood but its thought to be acquired adrenal insensitivity from previous episodes of hypoglycemia.  What happens is they dont' feel it until they are unconscious. 

A diabetic bodybuilder is much better off just trying to blood glucoses as close to normal as possible, just like any other diabetic athlete. 

[Van_Bilderass]

I don't see why a diabetic couldn't get the purported benefits from it like a nondiabetic. Maybe not to the same extent in all cases. But say you inject a larges bolus around workouts to take advantage of the upregulation of  insulin sensitivity in muscle as well as to reduce catabolism.

[Slintowin4424]

No, I don't think you read what I wrote, or I wrote something you don't like, so you are trying to get someone else to put up an answer..... so far no one has done it, so make of that what you want.

Here, reread what I posted:
 
Now, let me try again to write things so they are simple enough you'll understand them.  You cannot compare a diabetic and a nondiabetic bodybuilder because of the deficits in energy metabolism that a diabetic has.  You cannot develop a control group by taking away the insulin of a diabetic because they will not be able to manage their diabetes and as a result will lose any and all muscle gains they may be making in the gym.  The diabetic bodybuilder should focus on maintaining as close to normal blood glucoses as possible so as to optimize the environment for muscle growth to occur.  If they have two many episodes of hypoglycemia or they are too high on average blood glucose, they will inhibit muscle growth. 


If you are asking about a diabetic taking "extra" insulin to get an "advantage" from it, I also dont think that will work the same as it does in a nondiabetic, if you buy into the fact that it works at all in a nondiabetic who isnt' using large doses of anabolics and HGH, thus making themselves insulin insensitive.  You absolutely have to consider the fact that the bodies ultimate goal is homeostasis--maintaining blood glucoses within a relatively narrow range. 

Also, taking "extra" insulin isn't the wisest because its not uncommon for diabetics to have problems with managing hypoglycemia--in essence, they don't get the "shaky weak feeling" while being hypoglycemic.  The exact cause isn't well understood but its thought to be acquired adrenal insensitivity from previous episodes of hypoglycemia.  What happens is they dont' feel it until they are unconscious. 

A diabetic bodybuilder is much better off just trying to blood glucoses as close to normal as possible, just like any other diabetic athlete. 

Wow I didn't know that about the low blood sugar but its very valuble information def. reedemed as I have had many many problems with my blood sugar until I switched from R and NPH to Humalog and Lantus

[Vet]

I don't see why a diabetic couldn't get the purported benefits from it like a nondiabetic. Maybe not to the same extent in all cases. But say you inject a larges bolus around workouts to take advantage of the upregulation of  insulin sensitivity in muscle as well as to reduce metabolism.

The problem is the bodies desire to maintain homeostasis.  I think thats something that is often overlooked because insulin isn't a hormone that works in a feedback mechanism like testosterone or even GH.  Think about it, if you have a surge of testosterone (from a natural surge due to exercise or an artificial surge due to an injection), the body doesn't immediately increase production of a hormone to break the testosterone down.  Thats why there is such a wide variation in "normal" testosterone levels in healthy males  300-1200.  Not only that, there really isn't a counter regulatory mechanism to testosterone other than shutdown in production.  What happens in a male with a test of 1500?  Not much negatively if its short term due to a 'surge".  

In the case of blood glucose levels, the body maintains a much, much tighter level of control.  If there is excessive insulin secreted, the body immediately responds by secreting hormones that counteract the effects of insulin---epinephrine, cortisol, etc.  The body cannot survive if the brain doesn't have fuel.  The body will protect the brain at all costs with an almost immediate feedback to keep blood glucoses in a normal range.  This is also why I question the use of insulin by people who aren't experiencing some sort of insulin resistance.  The minute a nondiabetics blood sugar drops, the body starts working hard with what can be a major stress hormone response to get it back to "normal".  Thats also one of the reasons I keep saying that manipulation of endogenous insulin is far more beneficial than injecting insulin if you aren't diabetic.  

As far as benefits go, a diabetic will get the same benefits from an insulin injection as a nondiabetic who is capable of making their own insulin----they'll live.   The thing is, insulin isn't necessarily the only hormone mechanism associated with blood glucose control that is abnormal in diabetics.  The can have an abnormal response to low blood sugar and they have no response to high blood sugar because their bodies don't make insulin.  Thats why getting things into a normal range will be of the most benefit.  

As far as other 'benefits" I wouldn't recommend a diabetic purposefully taking more insulin than they need because of the potential to seriously screw themselves up.  A much smarter approach, especially if they are using "old school" insulins like NPH and R would be to consume a high protein, low/moderately low carbohydrate shake with just enough sugar to normalize blood glucose levels whenever they are hypoglycemic.  At that point their insulin will be at a high level (obviously, they have low blood sugar) and as a result will work in a way similar to what is supposedly happening with nondiabetics who take the drug and you won't have to worry about the same counterregulatory efforts by the body because if a diabetic is hypoglycemic, the are obviously overextending their counterregulatory hormones.

[Vet]

Wow I didn't know that about the low blood sugar but its very valuble information def. reedemed as I have had many many problems with my blood sugar until I switched from R and NPH to Humalog and Lantus

LOL.  Ok, well, I hope I've answered your questions.  I'll be the first to admit I post some long wordy assed shit, but when it comes to understanding insulin and how it works, I really don't know how else to write what I'm thinking.  In an nutshell blood glucose metabolism is a very complex hormone system with insulin having a very important role, but a really simple function.  As a result, I get too wordy.  Sorry.   

[Van_Bilderass]

As far as other 'benefits" I wouldn't recommend a diabetic purposefully taking more insulin than they need because of the potential to seriously screw themselves up.  A much smarter approach, especially if they are using "old school" insulins like NPH and R would be to consume a high protein, low/moderately low carbohydrate shake with just enough sugar to normalize blood glucose levels whenever they are hypoglycemic.  At that point their insulin will be at a high level (obviously, they have low blood sugar) and as a result will work in a way similar to what is supposedly happening with nondiabetics who take the drug and you won't have to worry about the same counterregulatory efforts by the body because if a diabetic is hypoglycemic, the are obviously overextending their counterregulatory hormones.

Well, here's where the "need" part comes in: say a diabetic bodybuilder "needs" to put on muscle. What does he do? Eat more of course, and inject more insulin to account for that. He can therefore take advantage of increased insulin sensitivity in muscle tissue due to the workout and time his biggest carb meals around the workout. This would theoretically be positive for nutrient partitioning towards muscle tissue instead of adipose stores. No different from a nondiabetic taking insulin for bodybuilding purposes. A diabetic wanting to put on muscle will need to eat more which by extension means using more insulin. I don't know why you say they will have low BG due to taking more insulin - it depends on how much they eat.

Don't forget Tim Belknap. He credited his thick muscularity to using insulin. Disgusted has talked about observing diabetic bodybuilders putting on muscle at a fast rate also.

[Vet]

Well, here's where the "need" part comes in: say a diabetic bodybuilder "needs" to put on muscle. What does he do? Eat more of course, and inject more insulin to account for that. He can therefore take advantage of increased insulin sensitivity in muscle tissue due to the workout and time his biggest carb meals around the workout. This would theoretically be positive for nutrient partitioning towards muscle tissue instead of adipose stores. No different from a nondiabetic taking insulin for bodybuilding purposes. A diabetic wanting to put on muscle will need to eat more which by extension means using more insulin. I don't know why you say they will have low BG due to taking more insulin - it depends on how much they eat.

I see what you are saying, but I still think it ultimately goes back to homeostasis and trying to maintain normal blood glucose levels---what a diabetic should have as their ultimate goal.  A diabetic IS NOT like a nondiabetic injecting insulin because they have no endogenous insulin production (assuming we are talking about Type I diabetics, like myself, Slin, and Belknap as example) to "maximize".  Their bodies are depenant for every bit on insulin based on what is injected on a daily basis.  Without that insulin, ketoacidosis and death will occur.  There is no way around it without insulin. 

Yes, you are correct in saying a diabetic will have to take more insulin to control their blood glucose levels iF they increase caloric intake, however if they just increase insulin intake in the absense of increased carbohydrate/caloric intake they will induce hypoglycemia.   This hypoglycemia will lead to release of stress hormones which in turn can negatively affect muscular growth.     

As far as Belknap and his "thickness", I dont' know.   He was my "hero" when I was in my late teens/early 20's and more interested in bodybuilding than powerlifting.   Again, if Belknap hadn't taken insulin, he would have been knocking on deaths door plain and simple or would have died from diabetes complications.   In the purest sense, insulin absolutely maximized his bodybuilding potential.  Death was the alternative.   My understanding is he maintained very good control of his diabetes while he was competing---the problems he had came several years after he retired.  In maintaining this control, he obviously maximized the environment for muscular growth, but even then, his ultimate goal was normal blood glucose levels so he could train and compete.   

[Luv2Hurt]

I don't use insulin but sure do appreciate the work vet has done here and on this board in general.  His prospective is valued here.

[Van_Bilderass]

, however if they just increase insulin intake in the absense of increased carbohydrate/caloric intake they will induce hypoglycemia.   This hypoglycemia will lead to release of stress hormones which in turn can negatively affect muscular growth.     

But what bodybuilder does insulin to lower BG? Yes I know some have used it to get into ketosis faster and a few intentionally get hypoglycemic to boost growth hormone but for growth you don't try to go hypo. If you time the carbs right you never go hypo and hardly ever feel it. You try to maintain euglycemia.

[Vet]

But what bodybuilder does insulin to lower BG? Yes I know some have used it to get into ketosis faster and a few intentionally get hypoglycemic to boost growth hormone but for growth you don't try to go hypo. If you time the carbs right you never go hypo and hardly ever feel it. You try to maintain euglycemia.

I really dont' understand the using insulin to get into ketosis faster, but thats a whole other thread topic. 


In my mind all bodybuilders using insulin are either directly or indirectly using it to lower their blood glucose.  They are trying to get an "overabundance" of insulin on board to facilitate amino acid uptake and other 'side effects' including GH release from lower than normal blood sugars.   The first and formost action of insulin is to facilitate the uptake of glucose from the blood--to lower blood sugar.  So even if they arent intending to do it, they still are.  I also think you really said the key thing with timing of the carbs correctly. 

Its pretty straight forward with older insulins like Regular because sugar enters the blood stream much, much faster than the insulin is absorbed and has action.  Its a bit different using ultrafast insulins like Humalog, but even then, there is still a difference between carb uptake and insulin action.  Thats why diabetics are still told they shouldn't eat candy.   This is also where insulin use gets really complicated and time dependant.  I think quite a few of the people who are using insulin alone are simply experienting with their hypoglycemia coping mechanisms.