What Obama *should've* said

[G o a t b o y]

Wow Goatboy, ...thanks for setting me straight.

I don't know where I as a Black woman would be if I didn't have you to tell me all about the sentiments that run so deeply within the Black community. If I need any advice about the Black experience, I now know where to turn.

You may be black, but you're not african-american.  You made a post recently about how different your experience was from black american's: 

I remember back in 1990, Erika Alexander coming up to Toronto to shoot a movie based on a true story of integrating the schools in Boston. John Boy from the Walton's directed it, ...and I remember how struck I was by the differences in our experiences. The girl whose story was being portrayed was entering her first day of school in the 6th grade. Well her first day of school in the 6th grade, was also MY first day of school in the 6th grade. It was such a contrast.

Two separate schools in two different countries, on the exact same day of the year. I remember my first day of grade 6 very well, and I can assure you it was nothing like hers.

So, perhaps your Canadian self should refrain from commenting on the American experience? 

[24KT]

You may be black, but you're not african-american.  You made a post recently about how different your experience was from black american's: 


So, perhaps your Canadian self should refrain from commenting on the American experience? 

You must think growing up in the Great White North is all peaches & cream.    I assure you it isn't.
You did however miss the part where I also said the majority of my family is American, and I've lived in the US.

[shootfighter1]

I don't think the attitude and overall tones of the rap culture helped anyone (except the few artist and record producers who got filthy rich).  In fact, it showed a generation of kids the exact wrong ideals, behaviors, the me first & I deserve attitudes, and persuit of material goods for happiness that we have increasingly seen.  This crosses racial lines and is seen in a cross section of people.  It may be boring to some kids to idolize people like Obama & other political figures, but we have to show them good values and ethics that will give them a greater chance to succeed.  I don't think that is happening universally.  Theres nothing wrong with enjoying some rap, besides it replaced real R&B which is far superior musically , but the degree to which it was glorified in the US caused some harm IMO, particularly in poor areas where these kids often do not get appropriate role models from family.

[G o a t b o y]

You must think growing up in the Great White North is all peaches & cream. 

You seem to think it is...  you bash America every chance you get on here.

[Benny B]

Wow Goatboy, ...thanks for setting me straight.

I don't know where I as a Black woman would be if I didn't have you to tell me all about the sentiments that run so deeply within the Black community. If I need any advice about the Black experience, I now know where to turn.

Goatboy IS actually arrogant and presumptuous enough to believe he can lecture you on your experiences as black person growing up in North America. Quite the character, he is.

[24KT]

You seem to think it is...  you bash America every chance you get on here.

It's not perfect, and all things are relative. Compared to growing up in America... it is. No bashing... just fact.

[G o a t b o y]

Goatboy IS actually arrogant and presumptuous enough to believe he can lecture you on your experiences as black person growing up in North America. Quite the character, he is.

Where did I ever say "North America"?  Everything I've been talking about has referred specifically to the USA and African American culture. Jag herself is always going on about how different Canada is in that regard.

[Benny B]

You seem to think it is...  you bash America every chance you get on here.

"Bashing" is different than pointing out America's imperfections. By your standard MLK "bashed" America, yet he was a greater patriot than you'll ever hope to be.

Where did I ever say "North America"?  Everything I've been talking about has referred specifically to the USA and African American culture. Jag herself is always going on about how different Canada is in that regard.

I specifically used North America, not you jackass. I believe there are some difference in terms of racial tolerance in Canada relative to the U.S. This may in part be due to slavery never being an institutionalized practice in that country. However, MY point in making it a continent issue is that while different, so many experiences of being a minority of African descent are the same.

[shootfighter1]

jaguar, what do you like better about Canada?  
My only experience is visiting there a few times and besides the colder weather, it seemed very pleasant.  People generally seemed welcoming and polite too.  (plus there are a lot of good looking Canadian girls...hahaha)

[G o a t b o y]

Hey, Judi...  completely off topic, but what's the deal with ~flower~'s avatar?   

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=12499


Are you two fighting or something?

[calmus]

what a snoozefest!

[24KT]

"Bashing" is different than pointing out America's imperfections. By your standard MLK "bashed" America, yet he was a greater patriot than you'll ever hope to be.
I specifically used North America, not you jackass. I believe there are some difference in terms of racial tolerance in Canada relative to the U.S. This may in part be due to slavery never being an institutionalized practice in that country. However, MY point in making it a continent issue is that while different, so many experiences of being a minority of African descent are the same.

Bingo! The only innaccurate part of your statement was where you said slavery wasn't an institutionalized practice. Not true. Slavery was very much a pert of the Canadian experience. In fact, the very first slave ws brought into Canada before the MayFlower ever landed on Plymouth rock. The difference is, it was abolished throughout the British Empire, long before it was abolished stateside. Plus our country didn't fight a vicious, bitter war over it. In addition too, most of our border cities were founded by runaway slaves, ...and it kind of hard to rail against your neighbour irrationally when you're too busy freezing your boobies off.  

[calmus]

zzzzzzzzzzzzz

[calmus]

I'm not going to list his military, government, and private sector experience.  You can look that up yourself.  Start with "My American Journey." 

What you'll find in his auto, evaluating his record, and assessing him as a person is a very experienced, intelligent, diligent, articulate, bright man of integrity and faith.  I don't think there is a man or woman in the country with his resume and intangibles.

Condi is close.   

I'd love to see a Powell/Rice or Powell/Linda Lingle ticket.  I'd be excited about either one. 

More deviousness from BB.

Lets pick the negros who are not running for president and wax eloquent about them.

But the Negros with more or at least as impressive credentials who are running for president we'll  at.

[Benny B]

Bingo! The only innaccurate part of your statement was where you said slavery wasn't an institutionalized practice. Not true. Slavery was very much a pert of the Canadian experience. In fact, the very first slave ws brought into Canada before the MayFlower ever landed on Plymouth rock. The difference is, it was abolished throughout the British Empire, long before it was abolished stateside. Plus our country didn't fight a vicious, bitter war over it. In addition too, most of our border cities were founded by runaway slaves, ...and it kind of hard to rail against your neighbour irrationally when you're too busy freezing your boobies off.  

Thanks for enlightening me.  I had an inkling slavery was at one time practiced in Canada, but was not sure of the exact facts. I simply knew about how many blacks that escaped their slaveholders in the U.S. attempted to get across the border to Canada to seek safe haven. I believe slavery was abolished by Britain in around 1811, so there were a lot of years whereby it was still being practiced in the U.S. afterwards.

[24KT]

jaguar, what do you like better about Canada?  
My only experience is visiting there a few times and besides the colder weather, it seemed very pleasant.  People generally seemed welcoming and polite too.  (plus there are a lot of good looking Canadian girls...hahaha)

Well it sure ain't the weather. That's fer darn sure! 

Please don't take this the wrong way, ...but I find Canadians are a far more "civilized" lot. We're LIBERAL. Not in the pejorative way it is euphemistically used south of the border, ...but in the actual meaning of the word. We don't box ourselves in or attempt to box others into a prison of narrow conformity, only to demonize those who either cannot or will not fit into their neatly arranged little boxes. We find our strengths in diversity & inclusiveness. I find Canadians to be much more secular, cosmopolitan, intelligent, less ignorant, more informed, more socially responsible, thoughtful and caring about our neighbours (across the street, across the city, town, province, country... and around the world). Maybe it's because we ARE the world. Walk down the streets of downtown Toronto, and it looks like a mini United Nations. Most are 1^st. & 2^nd. generation Canadians. Our lives are not as segregated as in the US, and we talk to each other, understanding the different issues we all face. If we don't know, ...we seek to understand. We feel no sense of superiority to our neighbours based upon nationality (unless we're talking about those south of the border)  A huge percentage of us are all 1st & 2nd generation, so there isn't that "I'm Canadian and you're not" attitude. We know we're all immigrants in this shit together, building our country together, and we'll either sink or swim together, ...or worse... get gobbled up by US monoculture which, for many Canadians is a fate worse than death. Not trying to bash, ...but trying to be frank about Canadian sentiment. Canada is as sophisticated, worldly & cosmopolitan as any major world city, while still having retained small town values, morals, and ideals. Many Canadians fear Americans, ...and it's not your military might we fear, ...it's your culture, your attitudes, and incredible myopic ignorance that we find so horrifying we strive not to duplicate it here. For decades, it has been the running joke, ...our national sport next to hockey, ...but the last decade, the joke is no longer funny and has taken on frighteningly horrific proportions.

I don't attribute this to any natural intelligence on the part of Canadians. We too went through the things America is facing, but in Canada, the race for cultural supremacy, and the subjugation of the "other" didn't have the distinct lines of delination marked by skin colour. Canada's two warring tribes were both White Western European descendants. As a result the racism and misguided ideas of inherent racial superiority that facilitated the great divide in the US didn't take root to the same degree because the "other guys" looked just the first group. We Canadians had to look at the unfair & unequal treatment that might otherwise have been dismissed had it been visited upon many other ethnic groups with a differnt color skin etc., Having the benefit of sitting back and watching the conflicts that led to Watts, and a few other American cities burned to the ground gave us perspective. When we saw the bombs going off in Montreal we realized we had the same crap happening, only we couldn't point to those with Black skin. These terrorists were homegrown, born & bred, and they were white. We saw the mistakes of our neighbours and vowed not to repeat them. I think too, Canada had strong intelligent & wise leaders who got great advice. An extremely influential advisor to Prime Minister Trudeau the father of multiculturalism in Canada was xxxLinda's ex boss Jerry Goodis, an extremely successful ad man who got the rich & powerful to actually listen to the grievances of disenfranchised or marginalized Canadians.

Plus Canada has porn over the public airwaves without making you pay for premium cable to get it. 

[24KT]

Hey, Judi...  completely off topic, but what's the deal with ~flower~'s avatar?   

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=12499

You'll have to ask ~flower~ about that. I'll simply say from my perspective... the woman has "issues". 

Are you two fighting or something?

If we are, it's completely one sided. I guess she doesn't have enough to do with her time I suppose.
You really have to ask her about it. I don't know what her deal is, ...and quite frankly, ...I don't care.

Anyway guys, ...it's been fun, but I have a 10pm eastern conference call.

l8ter 

[G o a t b o y]

Canada has it's share of reactionary hicks too, Judi.  You haven't been outside of the Toronto area much, have you?     And all the things you say about Toronto applies to many large American cities as well. You try to paint America as if every one is some uneducated bumpkin from small-town Alabama or something. 


Yes, you're more liberal, but that's not necessarily a positive.  Socialism, even when practiced as Social Democracy (and that is what you have for all practical purposes),  has far more negatives than positives, and just because we've chosen a different path doesn't mean you're right or we're wrong.  America is less secular, and I'll agree that's a negative, but most of the rest of what you say is total crap and colored by your Canuck perspective.

[War-Horse]

Well it sure ain't the weather. That's fer darn sure! 

Please don't take this the wrong way, ...but I find Canadians are a far more "civilized" lot. We're LIBERAL. Not in the pejorative way it is euphemistically used south of the border, ...but in the actual meaning of the word. We don't box ourselves in or attempt to box others into a prison of narrow conformity, only to demonize those who either cannot or will not fit into their neatly arranged little boxes. We find our strengths in diversity & inclusiveness. I find Canadians to be much more secular, cosmopolitan, intelligent, less ignorant, more informed, more socially responsible, thoughtful and caring about our neighbours (across the street, across the city, town, province, country... and around the world). Maybe it's because we ARE the world. Walk down the streets of downtown Toronto, and it looks like a mini United Nations. Most are 1^st. & 2^nd. generation Canadians. Our lives are not as segregated as in the US, and we talk to each other, understanding the different issues we all face. If we don't know, ...we seek to understand. We feel no sense of superiority to our neighbours based upon nationality (unless we're talking about those south of the border)  A huge percentage of us are all 1st & 2nd generation, so there isn't that "I'm Canadian and you're not" attitude. We know we're all immigrants in this shit together, building our country together, and we'll either sink or swim together, ...or worse... get gobbled up by US monoculture which, for many Canadians is a fate worse than death. Not trying to bash, ...but trying to be frank about Canadian sentiment. Canada is as sophisticated, worldly & cosmopolitan as any major world city, while still having retained small town values, morals, and ideals. Many Canadians fear Americans, ...and it's not your military might we fear, ...it's your culture, your attitudes, and incredible myopic ignorance that we find so horrifying we strive not to duplicate it here. For decades, it has been the running joke, ...our national sport next to hockey, ...but the last decade, the joke is no longer funny and has taken on frighteningly horrific proportions.

I don't attribute this to any natural intelligence on the part of Canadians. We too went through the things America is facing, but in Canada, the race for cultural supremacy, and the subjugation of the "other" didn't have the distinct lines of delination marked by skin colour. Canada's two warring tribes were both White Western European descendants. As a result the racism and misguided ideas of inherent racial superiority that facilitated the great divide in the US didn't take root to the same degree because the "other guys" looked just the first group. We Canadians had to look at the unfair & unequal treatment that might otherwise have been dismissed had it been visited upon many other ethnic groups with a differnt color skin etc., Having the benefit of sitting back and watching the conflicts that led to Watts, and a few other American cities burned to the ground gave us perspective. When we saw the bombs going off in Montreal we realized we had the same crap happening, only we couldn't point to those with Black skin. These terrorists were homegrown, born & bred, and they were white. We saw the mistakes of our neighbours and vowed not to repeat them. I think too, Canada had strong intelligent & wise leaders who got great advice. An extremely influential advisor to Prime Minister Trudeau the father of multiculturalism in Canada was xxxLinda's ex boss Jerry Goodis, an extremely successful ad man who got the rich & powerful to actually listen to the grievances of disenfranchised or marginalized Canadians.

Plus Canada has porn over the public airwaves without making you pay for premium cable to get it. 

Boy it sounds tempting to move there.  If satan mccain gets  cheated into office i just may.

[Benny B]

Canada has it's share of reactionary hicks too, Judi.  You haven't been outside of the Toronto area much, have you?     And all the things you say about Toronto applies to many large American cities as well. You try to paint America as if every one is some uneducated bumpkin from small-town Alabama or something. 

But you don't help to dispell such notions, Goatboy.

Yes, you're more liberal, but that's not necessarily a positive.  Socialism, even when practiced as Social Democracy (and that is what you have for all practical purposes),  has far more negatives than positives, and just because we've chosen a different path doesn't mean you're right or we're wrong.  America is less secular, and I'll agree that's a negative, but most of the rest of what you say is total crap and colored by your Canuck perspective.

Nah, she may have painted a slightly rosy picture but I think she's pretty much spot on.  

[G o a t b o y]

But you don't help to dispell such notions, Goatboy.

This is what pisses me off most about liberals... their arrogance.  They automatically assume that if someone disagrees with their preferred political positions, that person must therefore be uneducated, unintelligent, or ignorant.  I'm willing to accept that a person can be very intelligent and well educated, yet come to a very different conclusion or opinion on something than I have.  For some reason, most liberals seem to lack that insight.

[240 is Back]

This is what pisses me off most about liberals... their arrogance.  They automatically assume that if someone disagrees with their preferred political positions, that person must therefore be uneducated, unintelligent, or ignorant.  I'm willing to accept that a person can be very intelligent and well educated, yet come to a very different conclusion or opinion on something than I have.  For some reason, most liberals seem to lack that insight.

At the same time, most neoconservatives

1) Believe if you're liberal you're going to hell
2) Believe they're guaranteed a ticket to heaven
3) Believe wars aren't about bases, drugs, or oil - just about 'spreading freedom'.
4) Use the word "lib" to denounce then discard any belief counter to white hosue policy
5) Blame Clinton for every problem in america from 2001 to 2008.


So they're just as bad.  Telling people they're going to hell because they don't support a pre-emptive war for lifestyle maintenance is quite ironic.

[G o a t b o y]

At the same time, most neoconservatives

1) Believe if you're liberal you're going to hell
2) Believe they're guaranteed a ticket to heaven
3) Believe wars aren't about bases, drugs, or oil - just about 'spreading freedom'.
4) Use the word "lib" to denounce then discard any belief counter to white hosue policy
5) Blame Clinton for every problem in america from 2001 to 2008.


So they're just as bad.  Telling people they're going to hell because they don't support a pre-emptive war for lifestyle maintenance is quite ironic.

I agree with most of your points. But about #3, I don't think they actually believe that, they just understand that most americans are not sophisticated enough to understand the current world situation re: oil or what happens if oil supplies get inturrupted, so they needed a cover story.

[240 is Back]

I agree with most of your points. But about #3, I don't think they actually believe that, they just understand that most americans are not sophisticated enough to understand the current world situation re: oil or what happens if oil supplies get inturrupted, so they needed a cover story.

BB and joelocal argued it for two years.  "war isn't about oil".   They said it a thousand times.

Then, when Bush stood in Rose Garden and said the war IS about oil, their tune became "It's a *little* about oil, but mostly about freedom, and there were no plans for oil going on - that came later".

When shown WIKI details on Cheney assigning iraqi oil field rights to US firms before 9/11, they just get quiet.

Annoying bunch, I tells ya.

[G o a t b o y]

BB and joelocal argued it for two years.  "war isn't about oil".   They said it a thousand times.

Then, when Bush stood in Rose Garden and said the war IS about oil, their tune became "It's a *little* about oil, but mostly about freedom, and there were no plans for oil going on - that came later".

When shown WIKI details on Cheney assigning iraqi oil field rights to US firms before 9/11, they just get quiet.

Annoying bunch, I tells ya.

Oh... I misunderstood.  You weren't talking about those who made policy or had an understanding of what was really up, you meant the great unwashed who just parrot their respective party line.  Hell, that describes 80% of the electorate on both sides.