How important is the US Constitution?

[24KT]

The Federal Reserve was created in 1913, along with the Income Tax.  The great depression did not begin until the crash of 1929.

How were we protected from the Federal Reserve and Income tax up until the great depression, when in fact these changes were made before the great depression?

Too many conservatives use the terms "forefathers" and "founding fathers" without knowing what the hell they are talking about in terms of US history.

While the Fed existed, it wasn't until the great depression that your money supply was turned over to them.
Previous governments resisted & rebuffed their many attempts to control the US money supply til eventually one didn't, and that President (Woodrow Wilson I believe, ...but could be wrong) was known to say he had just committed one of the worst mistakes, and visited a great calamity upon the nation (or something to that effect)

[Dos Equis]

My friend Earl went from "living in a mansion on the hill, ...to a trailer house on a dirt road,
...not a blacktop road within miles", and he often poses the following question to people, ...

Q: "Do you know the difference between a $4000 /mth house payment, vs a $400 /mth payment?"

Do you know what the answer is (which I tend to believe)? Well, according to Earl:

A: "Nothing! There's NO difference at all between the two if you haven't got the $400"

So an argument that people can move to less expensive areas despite the fact that they tend to make less is a ridiculous one imo. If the mortgage is breaking your back, ...how willing would you be to move your family to a less expensive place next to the neighborhood crack house? I think most would continue to bare the crushing load for as long as they could until they collapsed under the weight.

If you ever get a chance to sit down and talk with Earl in person, jump at it. This is a man with much life experience who's been kicked down, had the wind knocked out of him, and been pitched so many curve balls sooo many times, ...yet through everything, he just picks himself up, dusts himself off, and moves forward.

He's such an inspiration, ...and one-on-one, he'll make you wet your pants with laughter.
He's a unique combination of laser-like intensity & Jeff Foxworthy earthiness rolled into one.
You can hear him tell his story in his own words here (It's the 6^th video down the right).

I disagree.  It's much easier to make $400 than $4000.  A dollar goes much farther in Texas than it does in Honolulu.  The food, gas, rent, mortgage, clothes, etc. are much cheaper.  And there is no state income tax in Texas.  Same is true of many other parts of the country.  One of my friends sold his house here and was able to pay cash for a house on the mainland.  A plethora of people have moved from here to Las Vegas because it's cheaper.  People makes these kinds of moves all the time in different parts of the country.

I was just talking to someone who has a house in Wyoming.  He said they don't have a state income tax, the cost of living is low, and the state has a huge surplus every year.  That's one place people can move to if they want a better quality of life.    

[Dos Equis]

I ain't talking about social issues. That's an entirely different subject. I'm talking about the most important factor in our quasi-capitalistic society: MONEY. Need I say more?

I'm talking about money too. 

[Dos Equis]

americans are slowing having their rights and freedoms as guaranteed by the constitution taken away in such a way as to not alarm the majority of the populace that it is indeed happening.

not only civil liberties, but the visions of what the founding fathers invisoned for the country and the populace who they sought to protect by drafting the document.

take, for example, your forefathers wanting to protect you from such things as income taxes and a federal reserve, which you were up until the great depression.

now you have the maufacturing (or not- the point of this post is not to start discussion on the conspirices surrounding 9/11) the events of 9/11, and the preaching of terror and fear 24 hours a day by the american news agencies, which will only make it easier to usurp further freedoms from the population when the time comes under the guise of 'protecting' you from domestic terrorism.

my question to you is, as i imagine the most of you posting here are american, do the majority of you not see what is going on, or do you just not care?

What specific "rights and freedoms" are you talking about?

[stormshadow]

While the Fed existed, it wasn't until the great depression that your money supply was turned over to them.
Previous governments resisted & rebuffed their many attempts to control the US money supply til eventually one didn't, and that President (Woodrow Wilson I believe, ...but could be wrong) was known to say he had just committed one of the worst mistakes, and visited a great calamity upon the nation (or something to that effect)

The Fed controlled interest rates before 1929.  This is what lead to the malinvestment of the roaring 20's and the resulting crash.

Now if you are referring to the termination of the domestic gold standard, then I would agree as that did not happen until 1934.

There was a massive run on the banks in 1907 that was allegedly spurred by JP Morgan and the creation of the Fed in 1913.  They had control of the money, but because of the domestic gold standard were limited in the amount of credit they could create, so they did not have the power that is available with a fiat currency.

[24KT]

I disagree.  It's much easier to make $400 than $4000.  A dollar goes much farther in Texas than it does in Honolulu.  The food, gas, rent, mortgage, clothes, etc. are much cheaper.  And there is no state income tax in Texas.  Same is true of many other parts of the country.  One of my friends sold his house here and was able to pay cash for a house on the mainland.  A plethora of people have moved from here to Las Vegas because it's cheaper.  People makes these kinds of moves all the time in different parts of the country.

I was just talking to someone who has a house in Wyoming.  He said they don't have a state income tax, the cost of living is low, and the state has a huge surplus every year.  That's one place people can move to if they want a better quality of life.    

Depends on what you do. 

Sometimes making $400 is just as easy as making $4K, so you might as well make the $4K.

But I think you're missing Earl's point. His point was, it doesn't matter what the amount is, if you don't have it.

[no one]

What specific "rights and freedoms" are you talking about?

what rights and freedoms?

any or every right and freedom guaranteed to you by your constitution.

the rest of the world globally can see the writing on the wall- if you are an american citizen but also a 'suspected terrorist' the time will come when every civil liberty you now enjoy will be suspended from you. arrested on allegation. denied an attorney. held without a trial. assets frozen and or completely taken away. what do you think the homeland security act does in braod strokes- protects you from terrorism? no, it gives your government total and complete rule over you.

tell me you can see what you as american citizens are being set up for.

don't think it can and won't be done, or that this is all just conspiracy- look at the way the feredal reserve manipulated it's way into such a position of power.

and that is the best part- stormshadow wishes to argue timelines and when it happened. he is very knowledgable of timeline and such but has not offered anything in terms of a concrete stance of what he sees happening in the US. it seems like he's just throwing out dates to look intelligent, which i'm sure he is,, but what he's missing here is the fact that it did happen. period.- and the fact it did happen should be a wake up call to your all and it doesn't seem to be. your whole economy is at the mercy of a non governmental, privately owned agency.

so, you now have your entire economy controlled by the federal reserve, and your administration putting itself in a position to suspend your civil liberties.

listen bro, i don't wish to argue this much as it doesn't matter to me one bit what happens to you, and i am not saying this out of malice, just simply because i do not reside within your borders. you can all live in denial of the writing on the wall all you want. its no skin off my nose. the only question i have that still has to be answered is how come americans as a whole either don't know about this or don't care?

[MB]

I disagree.  It's much easier to make $400 than $4000.  A dollar goes much farther in Texas than it does in Honolulu.  The food, gas, rent, mortgage, clothes, etc. are much cheaper.  And there is no state income tax in Texas.  Same is true of many other parts of the country. 

Completely true.  I moved from CA to TX last year and earn the same salary.  There is no state income tax here, gas is cheaper, and homes cost about 30% of what they do in CA.  Many people who live on the East & West Coasts simply don't want to leave, but you can often find a better quality of life in "less desirable" parts of the country if you're willing to make the move. 

[Deicide]

Depends on what you do. 

Sometimes making $400 is just as easy as making $4K, so you might as well make the $4K.

But I think you're missing Earl's point. His point was, it doesn't matter what the amount is, if you don't have it.

You like bragging about your wealth, don't you?

[Decker]

The Fed controlled interest rates before 1929.  This is what lead to the malinvestment of the roaring 20's and the resulting crash.

....

I would disagree somewhat.  The economy was already tanking before Hoover took office with major industries depressed.  Unions were crushed, wealth inequality was acute w/ the richest 1% owning 40% of the country’s wealth, rampant mergers saw American industry controlled by 200 corps, and although worker productivity soared, the middle class shrank to about 20% of the population. 

I think the lack of regulation— especially the lack of enforcement of anti-trust laws—played a big roll in contributing to the bad investments of the '20s b/c it permitted wealth and power to accumulate in the hands of a few which is a recipe for corruption/bad business.  It’s like the situation we have today with the investment banks, worthless mortgages and rampant opportunism at the middle class's expense.  Bad/crooked investments create nothing of value for the country.

[Dos Equis]

what rights and freedoms?

any or every right and freedom guaranteed to you by your constitution.

the rest of the world globally can see the writing on the wall- if you are an american citizen but also a 'suspected terrorist' the time will come when every civil liberty you now enjoy will be suspended from you. arrested on allegation. denied an attorney. held without a trial. assets frozen and or completely taken away. what do you think the homeland security act does in braod strokes- protects you from terrorism? no, it gives your government total and complete rule over you.

tell me you can see what you as american citizens are being set up for.

don't think it can and won't be done, or that this is all just conspiracy- look at the way the feredal reserve manipulated it's way into such a position of power.

and that is the best part- stormshadow wishes to argue timelines and when it happened. he is very knowledgable of timeline and such but has not offered anything in terms of a concrete stance of what he sees happening in the US. it seems like he's just throwing out dates to look intelligent, which i'm sure he is,, but what he's missing here is the fact that it did happen. period.- and the fact it did happen should be a wake up call to your all and it doesn't seem to be. your whole economy is at the mercy of a non governmental, privately owned agency.

so, you now have your entire economy controlled by the federal reserve, and your administration putting itself in a position to suspend your civil liberties.

listen bro, i don't wish to argue this much as it doesn't matter to me one bit what happens to you, and i am not saying this out of malice, just simply because i do not reside within your borders. you can all live in denial of the writing on the wall all you want. its no skin off my nose. the only question i have that still has to be answered is how come americans as a whole either don't know about this or don't care?

I'm asking about this comment:  "americans are slowing having their rights and freedoms as guaranteed by the constitution taken away . . . ."  You now say that includes "any or every right and freedom guaranteed to you by your constitution."  I am asking you to clarify what specific rights and freedoms you contend have been taken away. 

[no one]

I'm asking about this comment:  "americans are slowing having their rights and freedoms as guaranteed by the constitution taken away . . . ."  You now say that includes "any or every right and freedom guaranteed to you by your constitution."  I am asking you to clarify what specific rights and freedoms you contend have been taken away. 

stop with the semantics.

i don't know if you are being smug and this is an attempt to play words games, or sincere and actually have a difficult time comprehending what is meant by the nature of my post, so i'll explain it a little more simply.

my apologies for not doing so in the beginning- i had actually hoped this would turn into a thought provoking debate, not a game of word play. others in this thread have understood what my post is in regards to, perhaps when debating i should not take my words being understood as a forgone conclusion.

when i say slowly being taken away, it i had hoped it would be understood that the framework that would allow this to happen is being established.

i apologise for making such broad strokes. i should have made my point a little less hazy, so i'll say it here so there is no misunderstanding, and no mincing of words and no semantics- in an undisclosed amount of time, the untied states of american will be come a police state, if something is not done by your populace to prevent this from happening.

do you contend this or accept it?

if so why?

thank you.

[Decker]

I'm asking about this comment:  "americans are slowing having their rights and freedoms as guaranteed by the constitution taken away . . . ."  You now say that includes "any or every right and freedom guaranteed to you by your constitution."  I am asking you to clarify what specific rights and freedoms you contend have been taken away. 

It depends.  The 4th A right to freedom from searches unsupported by a warrant was trashed by the Bush Administration for years.

If there is any nexus whatsoever btn you and any terrorist org, you can kiss your 4th, 6th, 8th amendment rights off as well. 

For example, maybe you donated money to relief effort back in Pakistan or India and that relief effort had ties to terrorist organizations.

I know many people think, "I got nothing to fear"...I wonder some times.

[Dos Equis]

stop with the semantics.

i don't know if you are being smug and this is an attempt to play words games, or sincere and actually have a difficult time comprehending what is meant by the nature of my post, so i'll explain it a little more simply.

my apologies for not doing so in the beginning- i had actually hoped this would turn into a thought provoking debate, not a game of word play. others in this thread have understood what my post is in regards to, perhaps when debating i should not take my words being understood as a forgone conclusion.

when i say slowly being taken away, it i had hoped it would be understood that the framework that would allow this to happen is being established.

i apologise for making such broad strokes. i should have made my point a little less hazy, so i'll say it here so there is no misunderstanding, and no mincing of words and no semantics- in an undisclosed amount of time, the untied states of american will be come a police state, if something is not done by your populace to prevent this from happening.

do you contend this or accept it?

if so why?

thank you.

Semantics??  I'm quoting you.  You said our "americans are slowing having their rights and freedoms as guaranteed by the constitution taken away . . . ."  Which ones?  Freedom of speech, religion, press?  Right to counsel?  Voting?  What?  

If you're asking whether I believe some unnamed "right and freedom" is being taken away, I disagree.  

If you're asking whether I think in an "undisclosed amount of time" we will become a "police state," I disagree.  What's your basis for this statement?  

[no one]

Semantics??  I'm quoting you.  You said our "americans are slowing having their rights and freedoms as guaranteed by the constitution taken away . . . ."  Which ones?  Freedom of speech, religion, press?  Right to counsel?  Voting?  What? 

If you're asking whether I believe some unnamed "right and freedom" is being taken away, I disagree. 

If you're asking whether I think in an "undisclosed amount of time" we will become a "police state," I disagree.  What's your basis for this statement?   

see decker's post beachbum.

he gets it.

[Dos Equis]

It depends.  The 4th A right to freedom from searches unsupported by a warrant was trashed by the Bush Administration for years.

If there is any nexus whatsoever btn you and any terrorist org, you can kiss your 4th, 6th, 8th amendment rights off as well. 

For example, maybe you donated money to relief effort back in Pakistan or India and that relief effort had ties to terrorist organizations.

I know many people think, "I got nothing to fear"...I wonder some times.

Yes, some unknown people who were subject to warrantless wiretaps had their Fourth Amendment rights violated.  

If you are a foreign terrorist, or foreign suspected terrorist, you're not entitled to habeas, etc.

I don't know if "I got nothing to fear" is accurate, but the opposite end of the spectrum (paranoia) really has no basis.  I think "healthy distrust" is more appropriate.    

[Decker]

Yes, some unknown people who were subject to warrantless wiretaps had their Fourth Amendment rights violated.  

If you are a foreign terrorist, or foreign suspected terrorist, you're not entitled to habeas, etc.

I don't know if "I got nothing to fear" is accurate, but the opposite end of the spectrum (paranoia) really has no basis.  I think "healthy distrust" is more appropriate.    

Yes, some people had their Constitutional rights violated by the Bush Administration.

Where I'm from, that's called a "crime".  Now I'm not sure what "crime" means around here, but where I'm from, it's a fairly serious phenomenon. 

And I think that the Habeas Corpus Restoration Act of 2007 restored HC for some detainees.

[Dos Equis]

Yes, some people had their Constitutional rights violated by the Bush Administration.

Where I'm from, that's called a "crime".  Now I'm not sure what "crime" means around here, but where I'm from, it's a fairly serious phenomenon. 

And I think that the Habeas Corpus Restoration Act of 2007 restored HC for some detainees.

He should have gotten a warrant. 

[Decker]

He should have gotten a warrant. 

I agree.

Since the president ordered spying without getting the warrants, he committed repeated felonies.

That's bad business for someone sworn to uphold and enforce the laws.

[Dos Equis]

Since the president ordered spying without getting the warrants, he committed repeated felonies.

That's your opinion. 

[Decker]

That's your opinion. 

Oh my friend here we go.

The president broke the FISA law.  That's one for the history books.

That's a felony as well.  That's a fact.

Too bad he's beyond the reach of the courts.

My opinion that he should be tried in a court of law runs counter to the impeachment guidelines in the constitution.

[Hedgehog]

Oh boy, we have to talk...

Lay it out.

Bump for an answer.

[calmus]

Lay it out.

Bump for an answer.

What do you want an answer to? At the risk of sounding like an arrogant schmuck, i'll venture to say I've had more formal education about the constitution than anyone else in this thread (yes, including the lawyer)... so I'll answer an honest question from the academic perspective.

[Hedgehog]

What do you want an answer to? At the risk of sounding like an arrogant schmuck, i'll venture to say I've had more formal education about the constitution than anyone else in this thread (yes, including the lawyer)... so I'll answer an honest question from the academic perspective.

"Hugo Chavez" wrote to me that he wanted to talk after a post I wrote about how I think the constitution is outdated and could use an update.

I made several replies to him after that.

He still refuses to reply.

I find it strange.

I think your posts have been very interesting.

It's hard to have any opinion on "Hugo Chavez", since he's dodged the issue since that post.

[Hugo Chavez]

"Hugo Chavez" wrote to me that he wanted to talk after a post I wrote about how I think the constitution is outdated and could use an update.

I made several replies to him after that.

He still refuses to reply.

I find it strange.

I think your posts have been very interesting.

It's hard to have any opinion on "Hugo Chavez", since he's dodged the issue since that post.

oh holy shit dude, I'm totally sorry, I haven't clicked this thread again until now... My appology I did not mean to gaff you off!!!!  You know sometimes I agree with you and sometimes I don't, but you're one of the guys I always respect because you come with an honest take at all times... Please forgive me, it's been a weird week for me.  Let me go back and read the thread and I'll get right on it bro.