Author Topic: How important is the US Constitution?  (Read 12790 times)

calmus

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #125 on: April 04, 2008, 07:21:55 PM »
Why should we take something that was written 200+ years ago serious?

I agree that a Constitution is a very serious thing.

But this is two separate issues that often get mixed up:

One is the issue of whether a constitution should be respected - I say: Definitely.

The other one, is whether an ancient document, written during a time when slavery existed, democracy wasn't developed, et al, should be treated as some kind of supreme document - I say: No. Fcuking. Way.


There is no logical reason to as why the "founding fathers" would've had a better grasp of what democracy is than our current society.

We as a civilization develops. With it, our democracy should follow.



I read your post more carefully.  Seems like you have an issue with textualists/strict constructionists like Scalia.  

You really have to balance his position against the others on the Supreme Court.  In the 20th century, after 1936, the Supreme Court (interpreter of the Constitution) has really done quite well.  Civil Rights, Voting Rights, Gay Rights, Women's Rights, Death Penalty, Non-combatant detainee Rights, and last year Massachusetts v. EPA (a step in the right direction on global warming).  They've gone a little soft on white collar crime, but still not too bad.

Biggest fuck-up in recent memory.  giving bush the presidency in 2000.... unfortunately, it's hindsight that is 20-20.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #126 on: April 04, 2008, 07:29:34 PM »
Ok, we have to talk you say.

Then explain to me why something that was made 200+ years ago has to still stand.

Why it shouldn't be revamped.


Ok, it does and has been "revamped" 27 times.  The basic words of the American Constitution are probably most perfect words ever written for the people.  The foundation is all there and yes there are some flaws, as you mentioned, slavery and as I mention, it's a flaw corrected through a fantastic process for "revamping" by amendment.  It has worked so far.  If we today said, ok, let's just scrap the whole thing and rewrite, trust me, under our current spectrum of dipshit politicians, there is a better than half chance that we would take several steps backwards.  I disagree with you because our Constitution has a very good foundation no matter what time you live.  Amend as needed and as is designed. 

MB_722

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #127 on: April 04, 2008, 07:30:19 PM »
so you're a lawyer?

Hugo Chavez

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #128 on: April 04, 2008, 07:31:44 PM »
so you're a lawyer?
who?  not me...

calmus

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #129 on: April 04, 2008, 07:33:51 PM »
If we today said, ok, let's just scrap the whole thing and rewrite, trust me, under our current spectrum of dipshit politicians, there is a better than half chance that we would take several steps backwards.  I disagree with you because our Constitution has a very good foundation no matter what time you live.  Amend as needed and as is designed. 

I agree that we should not scrap it. And we wouldn't be able to reproduce the process that created it.

  The way our common law system works, there's a whole body of law that is undergirded by the Constitution, and for the most part I'm happy with it.  

I'm opposed to frequent amendment though.  But, thankfully, the constitution makes it so that it's incredibly hard to amend.  :D

calmus

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #130 on: April 04, 2008, 07:36:16 PM »

Really an amazing period in our history.  Men like Madison, Adams, Hamilton, Jefferson, and so many others rising to the top.  And then John Marshall (Jefferson' cousin) comes along to interpret it.  Never have something like that again.

MB_722

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #131 on: April 04, 2008, 07:36:55 PM »
who?  not me...

LOL you're juiced tonight  ;D

I meant Calmus

Hugo Chavez

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #132 on: April 04, 2008, 07:37:32 PM »
I agree that we should not scrap it. And we wouldn't be able to reproduce the process that created it.

  The way our common law system works, there's a whole body of law that is undergirded by the Constitution, and for the most part I'm happy with it.  

I'm opposed to frequent amendment though.  But, thankfully, the constitution makes it so that it's incredibly hard to amend.  :D
exactly... you know when it gets amended, it's most likely a serious need--unlike the Bush Gay Marriage ban bullshit.... working well enough so far!  Perfect no, but hell...

Hugo Chavez

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #133 on: April 04, 2008, 07:38:20 PM »
LOL you're juiced tonight  ;D

I meant Calmus
I'm totally toasted ;D  Love for everyone :)

MB_722

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #134 on: April 04, 2008, 07:38:47 PM »
I'm totally toasted ;D  Love for everyone :)

 :D

Hugo Chavez

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #135 on: April 05, 2008, 03:12:31 AM »
Really an amazing period in our history.  Men like Madison, Adams, Hamilton, Jefferson, and so many others rising to the top.  And then John Marshall (Jefferson' cousin) comes along to interpret it.  Never have something like that again.
Amen brother...

Slapper

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #136 on: April 05, 2008, 11:23:11 AM »
I'm talking about money too. 

Okkkkkkk... And you're saying that, money-wise, us, present America, is better off than the America of the 60's?


Dos Equis

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #137 on: April 05, 2008, 11:32:10 AM »
Okkkkkkk... And you're saying that, money-wise, us, present America, is better off than the America of the 60's?



I'm saying the American family is better off today than the 1960s (discrimination issues aside).  The standard of living is better.  People make more money.  There are more educational and income opportunities.  There are a plethora of full-time moms. 

Slapper

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #138 on: April 05, 2008, 11:38:27 AM »
I'm saying the American family is better off today than the 1960s (discrimination issues aside).  The standard of living is better.  People make more money.  There are more educational and income opportunities.  There are a plethora of full-time moms. 

 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

I'm speachless.

no one

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #139 on: April 05, 2008, 04:10:39 PM »
I'm saying the American family is better off today than the 1960s (discrimination issues aside).  The standard of living is better.  People make more money.  There are more educational and income opportunities.  There are a plethora of full-time moms. 

blanket statement.

nice.

more educational opportunities?

in 2003 the US ranked 18th amongst 24 amongst industrialised nations in terms of the effectiveness of its educational system, and that was after the introduction of the no child left behind act in 2001. luckily in 2005 you had managed to climb to a tie for 8th place on the ladder with belgium. belgium...?; and the sub saharan nations rank only 1% behind you in government spending on education...





b

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #140 on: April 05, 2008, 04:13:11 PM »
I'm saying the American family is better off today than the 1960s (discrimination issues aside).  The standard of living is better.  People make more money.  There are more educational and income opportunities.  There are a plethora of full-time moms. 

Can anyone prove/disprove this?  "People make more money" (adjusted for inflation of course)

I thoguht the middle class was shrinking and those below the poverty line were going up.

War-Horse

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #141 on: April 05, 2008, 04:19:36 PM »
Can anyone prove/disprove this?  "People make more money" (adjusted for inflation of course)

I thoguht the middle class was shrinking and those below the poverty line were going up.


Look around any neighborhood and 90% of moms are working.  It takes 2 incomes to pay for a mortgage and carpayments, gas food etc.     Not anything like the 60s and 70s when Dad did it all moneywise and mom was around to put a bandaid on your skinned knee.

Beachbum is living in lala land as usual....

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #142 on: April 05, 2008, 04:24:08 PM »

Look around any neighborhood and 90% of moms are working.  It takes 2 incomes to pay for a mortgage and carpayments, gas food etc.     Not anything like the 60s and 70s when Dad did it all moneywise and mom was around to put a bandaid on your skinned knee.

Beachbum is living in lala land as usual....

He very clearly said that the standard of living is better in 2008 than in the 60s.

Should be fairly easy to prove/disprove for someone with good research skills (I am not lol)



There were a lot less 2-income families in 1960, and a lot less foreclosures...

War-Horse

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #143 on: April 05, 2008, 04:35:16 PM »
He very clearly said that the standard of living is better in 2008 than in the 60s.

Should be fairly easy to prove/disprove for someone with good research skills (I am not lol)



There were a lot less 2-income families in 1960, and a lot less foreclosures...


i just dont think beachbum is worth the effort to research.  Common sense beats him all the time.

Dos Equis

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #144 on: April 05, 2008, 07:53:35 PM »
blanket statement.

nice.

more educational opportunities?

in 2003 the US ranked 18th amongst 24 amongst industrialised nations in terms of the effectiveness of its educational system, and that was after the introduction of the no child left behind act in 2001. luckily in 2005 you had managed to climb to a tie for 8th place on the ladder with belgium. belgium...?; and the sub saharan nations rank only 1% behind you in government spending on education...



Our educational system is so ineffective that large segments of the world's population flood our borders, partly to attend our educational institutions.  But that's a different issue.  I mentioned opportunities.  If you factor in the end of Jim Crow and the suppression of women, there are a slew of additional educational opportunities today than in the 60s.  Even if you don't factor that in, I am sure we have more accredited colleges, universities, trade schools, etc. today than we did in the 60s.  The federal government provides millions (probably billions) in subsidies through Pell Grants, the GI Bill, etc.  There is a legitimate issue regarding the quality of education in many of our public elementary and high schools, but there is no question Americans have more post-secondary opportunities today than 40 or 50 years ago. 

Slapper

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #145 on: April 06, 2008, 07:38:48 AM »
Our educational system is so ineffective that large segments of the world's population flood our borders, partly to attend our educational institutions.  But that's a different issue.  I mentioned opportunities.  If you factor in the end of Jim Crow and the suppression of women, there are a slew of additional educational opportunities today than in the 60s.  Even if you don't factor that in, I am sure we have more accredited colleges, universities, trade schools, etc. today than we did in the 60s.  The federal government provides millions (probably billions) in subsidies through Pell Grants, the GI Bill, etc.  There is a legitimate issue regarding the quality of education in many of our public elementary and high schools, but there is no question Americans have more post-secondary opportunities today than 40 or 50 years ago. 

Yeah, but you're mixing the point, yes, socially we've made great strides toward total equality. Whether we've achieved it or not is a totally different issue. Money is the core issue here because we're a capitalistic society. And money-wise you have to be mentally blind to argue that we're better off than in the 60s. Nowadays, without money you can't get into a decent school, which reduces the posibility of getting a decent job. Without money you will not have adequate representation in the courts should you decide to hit your boss (or worse yet, pork his wife). Et cetera.

Let me put it to you in simple terms. Back in the early 90s I wanted to do the Camino de Santiago, which is a well known pilgrimage route in Europe that runs from various European countries into a small town in the northwest of Spain called Santiago de Compostela. I wanted to take 2 weeks off because I wanted to start the route from Bordeaux (France). To make a long story short, when I booked the trip at the time, 1992 to be exact, the total cost was $ 757.00. I remember this vividly. In the end, I wasn unable to go because of work-related issues, but I was hell bent on going this year with my wife... To put it in simple terms: $ 7,300.00 for 2 fucking weeks! 

And this is not because of the euro being overvalued, it is because the dollar is as good as toilet paper outside the US.

Capisci amici?

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #146 on: April 06, 2008, 07:42:01 AM »
slapper, decker, and others...

can anyone find stats that show if the US standard of living was better or worse, in 1960 or in 2007? 

Slapper

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #147 on: April 06, 2008, 08:17:30 AM »
slapper, decker, and others...

can anyone find stats that show if the US standard of living was better or worse, in 1960 or in 2007? 

Well, I'm looking for my father's mortgage documents as well as one of his check stubs (don't get more real than that!).

I'll get back to you on it.

Dos Equis

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #148 on: April 06, 2008, 10:29:28 AM »
Yeah, but you're mixing the point, yes, socially we've made great strides toward total equality. Whether we've achieved it or not is a totally different issue. Money is the core issue here because we're a capitalistic society. And money-wise you have to be mentally blind to argue that we're better off than in the 60s. Nowadays, without money you can't get into a decent school, which reduces the posibility of getting a decent job. Without money you will not have adequate representation in the courts should you decide to hit your boss (or worse yet, pork his wife). Et cetera.

Let me put it to you in simple terms. Back in the early 90s I wanted to do the Camino de Santiago, which is a well known pilgrimage route in Europe that runs from various European countries into a small town in the northwest of Spain called Santiago de Compostela. I wanted to take 2 weeks off because I wanted to start the route from Bordeaux (France). To make a long story short, when I booked the trip at the time, 1992 to be exact, the total cost was $ 757.00. I remember this vividly. In the end, I wasn unable to go because of work-related issues, but I was hell bent on going this year with my wife... To put it in simple terms: $ 7,300.00 for 2 fucking weeks! 

And this is not because of the euro being overvalued, it is because the dollar is as good as toilet paper outside the US.

Capisci amici?

Not mixing the point at all.  I mentioned educational opportunities and "no one" started talking about the quality of (secondary) education.  Just clarifying that point with him. 

I agree that money is a large part of the issue, but we're not going to start this "you're blind" if you don't agree with me line are we?   :)  There are numerous factors you can look at today that are better than the 1960s.  Off the top of my head:

- As I mentioned, more educational opportunities.  Anyone can go to a post-secondary college, university, or trade school.  State universities have relatively inexpensive tuition.  Junior/community colleges are dirt cheap.  There are a ton of scholarships available.  The federal and state government offers a lot of money in grants.  The military can provide pretty much a free education for anyone.  Take the GI Bill and the Army College Fund.  Not sure what the precise dollar amounts are, but it's a lot of money.  There are federally guaranteed student loans available.  Some states offer free tuition to students who achieve certain criteria.  These opportunities are much greater today than 40 or 50 years ago.

- You mentioned the house your father bought.  What kind of house was it?  I grew up in a working class neighborhood where everyone (including us) owned their own home.  No apartment buildings.  No renters.  But I look at the first houses that each of my siblings and I purchased and they are head and shoulders better than the house I grew up in.  We make more money than our parents did.

I think of a number of instances like this, but here is just one:  a family at my church consists of a retired sergeant major, his wife, and two sons.  When they first moved here about ten years ago, the father was still active duty, and the wife was a full-time mom.  Neither the father nor the mom are college graduates.  They bought a decent house in a nice neighborhood.  Today, their oldest son is in medical school.  The Air Force is paying his tuition.  The youngest son is in college and just joined the military.  I would be willing to wager that both sons' first houses will be better than the house their parents bought (on one income) here in Hawaii.  Their quality of life will be better too.  I know this is anecdotal, but I could give you about 50 stories like this.   

- We live longer today than 40 or 50 years ago.  We have an obesity epidemic, but we still enjoy better lives health wise than our parents and grandparents. 

- The products and services are better.  The cars, electronics, etc. are better quality today. 

- Income is way up.  You mentioned the cost of a trip in 1992 versus today.  How does your income today compare to 1992?   :)  I make just a tad bit more today than 16 years ago. . . .     

- Then there is the discrimination issue.  Brown v. Board was just in the 1950s and the Civil Rights Act was in the 1960s.  The quality of education and access to public accommodations for minorities today is night and day.

- Women were largely shut out of the professional ranks in the 50s and 60s.  Not nearly so today.   

- It is harder in more expensive cities (like Honolulu) for a family to survive on a single income, but it happens all time.  I know plenty of neighbors, co-workers, church members, and friends who do it.  I think a substantial number of military wives are full-time moms. 

I could go on, but I have to go stink up the softball field.   

Slapper

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Re: How important is the US Constitution?
« Reply #149 on: April 06, 2008, 10:51:01 AM »
There is no problem my man! The sky is the limit!

We're soooo fucked!