Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
October 25, 2014, 09:02:10 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Login Register  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Pre contest cycle  (Read 6069 times)
GetBigOrDieTrying
Getbig II
**
Posts: 207


« on: April 02, 2008, 07:42:13 AM »

Hi , what do you think of this pre contest cycle?


Weeks 14 7
800mg Test cyp ( Depotrone) Per Week
600mg Equipoise Per Week
1mg Arimidex EOD ( Every other day)
T3 50mcg Per Day
GH 4 IU Per Day

Weeks 7 -5
Test Prop 100mg EOD
Trenbolan Acetate 75mg EOD
Masteron 75mg EOD
0.5mg Arimidex EOD ( Every other day)
T3 50mcg Per Day
GH 4 IU Per Day

Weeks 5- 3
Test Prop 100mg EOD
Trenbolan Acetate 75mg EOD
Masteron 75mg EOD
Stanazol 50mg P/Day ( Oral)
Proviron 50mg P/Day ( Oral)
Anavar 50mg P/Day ( Oral)
0.5mg Arimidex EOD ( Every other day)
T3 50mcg Per Day
GH 4 IU Per Day

Weeks 3 1
Trenbolan Acetate 75mg Every Day
Stanazol 100mg P/Day ( Oral)
Proviron 100mg P/Day ( Oral)
Anavar 50mg P/Day ( Oral)
0.5mg Arimidex EOD ( Every other day)
T3 50mcg Per Day

Final week
Stanazol 100mg P/Day ( Oral)
Proviron 100mg P/Day ( Oral)
Anavar 50mg P/Day ( Oral)
T3 50mcg Per Day
Kessar 20mg Per Day


Report to moderator   Logged
Arnold jr
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 7255


fleshandiron.com


WWW
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2008, 10:29:29 AM »

I would do it like this:


wk 1-8 cyp 800mg/wk
wk 1-8 EQ 600mg/wk
wk 1-13 adex 1mg/eod
wk 1-13 gh 4iu/ed
wk 5-13 tren-a 75mg/eod
wk 7-14 masteron 75mg/eod
wk 9-13 prop 100mg/eod
wk 9-13 winny 50mg/ed
wk 9-13 var 50mg/ed

wk 14 winny 100mg/ed, var 50mg/ed, tren-a 75mg/ed, adex 1mg/ed, masteron 75mg/ed

On the t-3 I'd be ramping up slowly the whole time...something like this:

wk 1-3 50mcg/ed
wk 4-6 62.5mcg/ed
wk 7-9 75mcg/ed
wk 10-12 87.5mcg/ed
wk 13-14 100mcg/ed

I would also run the t-3 about 2wks after the show at 25mcg/ed then come off.
Also, I might run prop for 2-4wks after the show, just because coming off everything right after a diet can sometimes be harsh...100mg/eod for a few wks then coming off can often feel a lot better IMO. Necessary, no, but it doesn't hurt IMO.

Report to moderator   Logged
muscle19
Getbig IV
****
Gender: Male
Posts: 2062


Lifes To Short To Be Small!!!


« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2008, 11:00:06 AM »

what would a pct look like?
Report to moderator   Logged

muscle
Luv2Hurt
Competitors II
Getbig V
******
Gender: Female
Posts: 6044



« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2008, 12:48:50 PM »

what would a pct look like?

3 months of coasting on 400mg test E a week, then at it again for real.  Grin
Report to moderator   Logged
muscle19
Getbig IV
****
Gender: Male
Posts: 2062


Lifes To Short To Be Small!!!


« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2008, 01:26:20 PM »

LOL.  Good idea Smiley I wish I could stay on all the time but how could someone have kids of theey are on 24/7? Could someone use HCG during it all and still produce kids?
Report to moderator   Logged

muscle
Arnold jr
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 7255


fleshandiron.com


WWW
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2008, 09:40:12 PM »

LOL.  Good idea Smiley I wish I could stay on all the time but how could someone have kids of theey are on 24/7? Could someone use HCG during it all and still produce kids?
Several of my friends have kids and they are on cycle a good bit...some almost non stop...but your odds are better w/o juice...and this goes for HCG too.
Report to moderator   Logged
GetBigOrDieTrying
Getbig II
**
Posts: 207


« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2008, 12:28:57 AM »

Thanks for the input AJ ,

What about the proviron? Kessar?

What do you think of Halo , would I need it with the stanazol , var and tren or is that over kill?

good Idea with the test prop after the contest. Ill start HCG the day after the show and run it for 3 weeks post the last prop shot followed by clomid...
Report to moderator   Logged
Fulgorre
Getbig III
***
Posts: 514


« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2008, 09:40:01 AM »

I think the cycle looks great as far as results.

Now could you get nearly the same look and spend a lot less? probably  I'd make my own tren and run that stuff 100mg ed instead of all the anavar and winny.  Well, maybe a little inject winny at the end hehe
Report to moderator   Logged
MaxG
Getbig II
**
Posts: 270



« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2008, 11:49:35 AM »

I see no need for Halo. Sten is a product that was actually replaced by Tren. Halo is very harsh on the system.
Report to moderator   Logged
Arnold jr
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 7255


fleshandiron.com


WWW
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2008, 01:46:55 PM »

Thanks for the input AJ ,

What about the proviron? Kessar?

What do you think of Halo , would I need it with the stanazol , var and tren or is that over kill?

good Idea with the test prop after the contest. Ill start HCG the day after the show and run it for 3 weeks post the last prop shot followed by clomid...
You're already using adex, so there should be no need for proviron or kessar...it would be a waste of of both IMO. Save the kessar (nolva) for your PCT. As for the proviron, I'm not a big fan, just because i think other things work better, but if I were to use it again it would also be during PCT.

The tren and winny will make you plenty hard...but if I were to add in the halo, and being Arnold jr I probably would just because I like it, I'd drop the var. If you do use the var, 50mg/ed is a very low dose for a guy, even if you are using other things in conjuncture...80mg-100mg/ed is more like it, but 40mg/ed of halo is far more potent IMO.
Report to moderator   Logged
duncanlukas
Getbig II
**
Posts: 192


« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2008, 09:21:09 PM »

if halo isnt your thing, you could toss in masteron and run for the last 5 weeks and would make you hard as hell and even more vascular...
Report to moderator   Logged
GetBigOrDieTrying
Getbig II
**
Posts: 207


« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2008, 11:48:41 PM »

Ok ok , Ive adjusted the final part like this


Weeks 3 1
Trenbolan Acetate 75mg Every other day
Masteron 75mg Every other day
Test prop 100mg Every other day
Stanazol 100mg P/Day ( Oral)
Anavar 50mg P/Day ( Oral)
0.5 mg Arimidex EOD ( Every other day)
T3 75 mcg Per Day
GH 4 IU Per Day ( Cut this out 2 weeks before the show)

Final week
Stanazol 100mg P/Day ( Oral)
Anavar 100mg P/Day ( Oral)
T3 75 mcg Per Day
1mg Arimidex Per Day
Kessar 20mg Per Day

Week After show
T3 25mcg Per day
Anavar 50mg Per/Day
Kessar 20mg Per Day
Pregnly 1500IU every 4 days.

2nd Week
Kessar 20mg
Pregnyl 1500IU every 4 Days

3rd Week
Pregnyl 1500 IU every 4 Days
Clomid 50mg everyday

4th week
Clomid 50mg Everyday



I dont like injecting in the final week before a show I like to just run orals. Dont you think 0.5mg Arimidex is more than enough if you look at what im running? Bumb that up to 1mg in the final week with the Nolvadex should work like a charm. Also ive dropped the proviron and exchnaged that for a high dose of stanazol.

Thank you every one for you input.
Report to moderator   Logged
Luv2Hurt
Competitors II
Getbig V
******
Gender: Female
Posts: 6044



« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2008, 06:05:51 AM »

Ok ok , Ive adjusted the final part like this


Weeks 3 1
Trenbolan Acetate 75mg Every other day
Masteron 75mg Every other day
Test prop 100mg Every other day
Stanazol 100mg P/Day ( Oral)
Anavar 50mg P/Day ( Oral)
0.5 mg Arimidex EOD ( Every other day)
T3 75 mcg Per Day
GH 4 IU Per Day ( Cut this out 2 weeks before the show)

Final week
Stanazol 100mg P/Day ( Oral)
Anavar 100mg P/Day ( Oral)
T3 75 mcg Per Day
1mg Arimidex Per Day
Kessar 20mg Per Day

Week After show
T3 25mcg Per day
Anavar 50mg Per/Day
Kessar 20mg Per Day
Pregnly 1500IU every 4 days.

2nd Week
Kessar 20mg
Pregnyl 1500IU every 4 Days

3rd Week
Pregnyl 1500 IU every 4 Days
Clomid 50mg everyday

4th week
Clomid 50mg Everyday



I dont like injecting in the final week before a show I like to just run orals. Dont you think 0.5mg Arimidex is more than enough if you look at what im running? Bumb that up to 1mg in the final week with the Nolvadex should work like a charm. Also ive dropped the proviron and exchnaged that for a high dose of stanazol.

Thank you every one for you input.

Personally i would keep the shots going till night before the show.  At least the test prop and tren.  Too drastic of a change for me the last week.  Also i would not put the nolva in there at all till after the show.

On another note and this is to AJ, I see that Dave P does not like nolva for guys, recomends clomid instead for pct.  I thought the 2 were very similar?  But they must be different to some degree.  I know clomid is supossed to be a stimulater of GnRH but nolva supposedly does the same.  Clomid claims this more though maybe for marketing reasons.
Report to moderator   Logged
GetBigOrDieTrying
Getbig II
**
Posts: 207


« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2008, 06:30:59 AM »

Luv 2 hurt - Ive always taken Nolvadex the last few days. I find it drys me up. Just in the final week. I dont use it for PCT purposes.

The Mastron im using is enanthate so cutting it out in the final week shouldnt be an issue?
Report to moderator   Logged
Luv2Hurt
Competitors II
Getbig V
******
Gender: Female
Posts: 6044



« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2008, 06:43:29 AM »

Luv 2 hurt - Ive always taken Nolvadex the last few days. I find it drys me up. Just in the final week. I dont use it for PCT purposes.

The Mastron im using is enanthate so cutting it out in the final week shouldnt be an issue?


No i agree cut out any long chain esters before the show.  I would cut any long stuff out at least 6 weeks prior, Edit here* Except EQ.

Still dont like the nolva and think it could have the reverse effect than "drying you up"  as nolva acts as an estrogen in certian areas.

But hey what ever works for you best and your pass experiance is what you should do.  This stuff is all not absolute.
Report to moderator   Logged
Arnold jr
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 7255


fleshandiron.com


WWW
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2008, 11:04:29 PM »



On another note and this is to AJ, I see that Dave P does not like nolva for guys, recomends clomid instead for pct.  I thought the 2 were very similar?  But they must be different to some degree.  I know clomid is supossed to be a stimulater of GnRH but nolva supposedly does the same.  Clomid claims this more though maybe for marketing reasons.

Yeah, they are pretty similar, and I have no idea why he recomends clomid over nolva. Maybe there is a good reason in his mind or it could be it's just what he's always done and it worked so he sticks to it...who knows.

For me, I do like clomid more then nolva. If I'm going to pick just one I always go for the clomid...I always seem to feel better or rather get better results with it...even though it is one of the only things out there that does give me a bit of acne.
Report to moderator   Logged
GetBigOrDieTrying
Getbig II
**
Posts: 207


« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2008, 12:32:20 AM »

Aj you dont think the acne is just becuase your using it post cycle? It might not be the Clomid.

I always thought Clomid was better PCT at re-stimulating natural test production and the nolva was a better anti-estrogen.  Ive always used HCG with nolvadex for the initial phase and then changed over to clomid once im done with HCG.
Report to moderator   Logged
Van_Bilderass
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 9946


"Don't Try"


« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2008, 08:25:16 AM »

William Llewellyn has written some good stuff about Nolva vs. Clomid. Do a google search. Basically he makes the case that Nolva is better for PCT.
Report to moderator   Logged
Arnold jr
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 7255


fleshandiron.com


WWW
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2008, 09:50:38 AM »

Aj you dont think the acne is just becuase your using it post cycle? It might not be the Clomid.

I always thought Clomid was better PCT at re-stimulating natural test production and the nolva was a better anti-estrogen.  Ive always used HCG with nolvadex for the initial phase and then changed over to clomid once im done with HCG.
Well if I don't use it I don't get any acne, so its got to be the clomid.
Report to moderator   Logged
Van_Bilderass
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 9946


"Don't Try"


« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2008, 12:29:14 PM »

Clomid, Nolvadex and Testosterone Stimulation
By William Llewellyn


I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.



Clomid and Nolvadex

I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.

Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.



Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH

But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.



The Estrogen Clomid

The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".

Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.



Conclusion

To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.

Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.

In next month's follow-up article I will be discussing the role anti-estrogens play in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Most specifically, I will be detailing what a proper post-cycle ancillary drug program looks like, and explain why anti-estrogens alone are not effective during this window of time.


References
1. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7

2. Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30

3. The effect of clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45
Report to moderator   Logged
GetBigOrDieTrying
Getbig II
**
Posts: 207


« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2008, 06:46:35 AM »

Van the Man!

Great post thanks.

Out with Clomid in with Nolva until some one else posts some PRO clomid research next week  Grin
Report to moderator   Logged
Tapeworm
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 18960


Still crazy after all these years


« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2008, 09:08:31 AM »

Good find VB.  Smiley
Report to moderator   Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Theme created by Egad Community. Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!