Author Topic: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?  (Read 11986 times)

Decker

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What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« on: April 09, 2008, 07:13:42 PM »
Normally I don't post unedited material.

"We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if mankind is to survive."


Why Socialism?


By Albert Einstein


Is it advisable for one who is not an expert on economic and social issues to express views on the subject of socialism? I believe for a number of reasons that it is.

Let us first consider the question from the point of view of scientific knowledge. It might appear that there are no essential methodological differences between astronomy and economics: scientists in both fields attempt to discover laws of general acceptability for a circumscribed group of phenomena in order to make the interconnection of these phenomena as clearly understandable as possible. But in reality such methodological differences do exist. The discovery of general laws in the field of economics is made difficult by the circumstance that observed economic phenomena are often affected by many factors which are very hard to evaluate separately. In addition, the experience which has accumulated since the beginning of the so-called civilized period of human history has -- as is well known -- been largely influenced and limited by causes which are by no means exclusively economic in nature. For example, most of the major states of history owed their existence to conquest. The conquering peoples established themselves, legally and economically, as the privileged class of the conquered country. They seized for themselves a monopoly of the land ownership and appointed a priesthood from among their own ranks. The priests, in control of education, made the class division of society into a permanent institution and created a system of values by which the people were thenceforth, to a large extent unconsciously, guided in their social behavior.

But historic tradition is, so to speak, of yesterday; nowhere have we really overcome what Thorstein Veblen called "the predatory phase" of human development. The observable economic facts belong to that phase and even such laws as we can derive from them are not applicable to other phases. Since the real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development, economic science in its present state can throw little light on the socialist society of the future.

Second, socialism is directed toward a social-ethical end. Science, however, cannot create ends and, even less, instill them in human beings; science, at most, can supply the means by which to attain certain ends. But the ends themselves are conceived by personalities with lofty ethical ideals and -- if these ends are not stillborn, but vital and vigorous -- are adopted and carried forward by those many human beings who, half-unconsciously, determine the slow evolution of society.

For these reasons, we should be on our guard not to overestimate science and scientific methods when it is a question of human problems; and we should not assume that experts are the only ones who have a right to express themselves on questions affecting the organization of society.

Innumerable voices have been asserting for some time now that human society is passing through a crisis, that its stability has been gravely shattered. It is characteristic of such a situation that individuals feel indifferent or even hostile toward the group, small or large, to which they belong. In order to illustrate my meaning, let me record here a personal experience. I recently discussed with an intelligent and well-disposed man the threat of another war, which in my opinion would seriously endanger the existence of mankind, and I remarked that only a supranational organization would offer protection from that danger. Thereupon my visitor, very calmly and coolly, said to me: "Why are you so deeply opposed to the disappearance of the human race?"

I am sure that as little as a century ago no one would have so lightly made a statement of this kind. It is the statement of a man who has striven in vain to attain an equilibrium within himself and has more or less lost hope of succeeding. It is the expression of a painful solitude and isolation from which so many people are suffering in these days. What is the cause? Is there a way out?

It is easy to raise such questions, but difficult to answer them with any degree of assurance. I must try, however, as best I can, although I am very conscious of the fact that our feelings and strivings are often contradictory and obscure and that they cannot be expressed in easy and simple formulas.

Man is, at one and the same time, a solitary being and a social being. As a solitary being, he attempts to protect his own existence and that of those who are closest to him, to satisfy his personal desires, and to develop his innate abilities. As a social being, he seeks to gain the recognition and affection of his fellow human beings, to share in their pleasures, to comfort them in their sorrows, and to improve their conditions of life. Only the existence of these varied, frequently conflicting strivings accounts for the special character of a man, and their specific combination determines the extent to which an individual can achieve an inner equilibrium and can contribute to the well-being of society. It is quite possible that the relative strength of these two drives is, in the main, fixed by inheritance. But the personality that finally emerges is largely formed by the environment in which a man happens to find himself during his development, by the structure of the society in which he grows up, by the tradition of that society, and by its appraisal of particular types of behavior. The abstract concept "society" means to the individual human being the sum total of his direct and indirect relations to his contemporaries and to all the people of earlier generations. The individual is able to think, feel, strive, and work by himself; but he depends so much upon society -- in his physical, intellectual, and emotional existence -- that it is impossible to think of him, or to understand him, outside the framework of society. It is "society" which provides man with food, clothing, a home, the tools of work, language, the forms of thought, and most of the content of thought; his life is made possible through the labor and the accomplishments of the many millions past and present who are all hidden behind the small word "society."

It is evident, therefore, that the dependence of the individual upon society is a fact of nature which cannot be abolished -- just as in the case of ants and bees. However, while the whole life process of ants and bees is fixed down to the smallest detail by rigid, hereditary instincts, the social pattern and interrelationships of human beings are very variable and susceptible to change. Memory, the capacity to make new combinations, the gift of oral communication have made possible developments among human beings which are not dictated by biological necessities. Such developments manifest themselves in traditions, institutions, and organizations; in literature; in scientific and engineering accomplishments; in works of art. This explains how it happens that, in a certain sense, man can influence his life through his own conduct, and that in this process conscious thinking and wanting can play a part.

Man acquires at birth, through heredity, a biological constitution which we must consider fixed and unalterable, including the natural urges which are characteristic of the human species. In addition, during his lifetime, he acquires a cultural constitution which he adopts from society through communication and through many other types of influences. It is this cultural constitution which, with the passage of time, is subject to change and which determines to a very large extent the relationship between the individual and society Modern anthropology has taught us, through comparative investigation of so-called primitive cultures, that the social behavior of human beings may differ greatly, depending upon prevailing cultural patterns and the types of organization which predominate in society. It is on this that those who are striving to improve the lot of man may ground their hopes: human beings are not condemned, because of their biological constitution, to annihilate each other or to be at the mercy of a cruel, self-inflicted fate.

If we ask ourselves how the structure of society and the cultural attitude of man should be changed in order to make human life as satisfying as possible, we should constantly be conscious of the fact that there are certain conditions which we are unable to modify. As mentioned before, the biological nature of man is, for all practical purposes, not subject to change. Furthermore, technological and demographic developments of the last few centuries have created conditions which are here to stay. In relatively densely settled populations with the goods which are indispensable to their continued existence, an extreme division of labor and a highly centralized productive apparatus are absolutely necessary. The time -- which, looking back, seems so idyllic -- is gone forever when individuals or relatively small groups could be completely self-sufficient. It is only a slight exaggeration to say that mankind constitutes even now a planetary community of production and consumption.

I have now reached the point where I may indicate briefly what to me constitutes the essence of the crisis of our time. It concerns the relationship of the individual to society. The individual has become more conscious than ever of his dependence upon society. But he does not experience this dependence as a positive asset, as an organic tie, as a protective force, but rather as a threat to his natural rights, or even to his economic existence. Moreover, his position in society is such that the egotistical drives of his make-up are constantly being accentuated, while his social drives, which are by nature weaker, progressively deteriorate. All human beings, whatever their position in society, are suffering from this process of deterioration. Unknowingly prisoners of their own egotism, they feel insecure, lonely, and deprived of the naive, simple, and unsophisticated enjoyment of life. Man can find meaning in life, short and perilous as it is, only through devoting himself to society.

The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. We see before us a huge community of producers the members of which are unceasingly striving to deprive each other of the fruits of their collective labor -- not by force, but on the whole in faithful compliance with legally established rules. In this respect, it is important to realize that the means of production -- that is to say, the entire productive capacity that is needed for producing consumer goods as well as additional capital goods -- may legally be, and for the most part are, the private property of individuals.

For the sake of simplicity, in the discussion that follows I shall call "workers" all those who do not share in the ownership of the means of production -- although this does not quite correspond to the customary use of the term. The owner of the means of production is in a position to purchase the labor power of the worker. By using the means of production, the worker produces new goods which become the property of the capitalist. The essential point about this process is the relation between what the worker produces and what he is paid, both measured in terms of real value. In so far as the labor contract is "free," what the worker receives is determined not by the real value of the goods he produces, but by his minimum needs and by the capitalists' requirements for labor power in relation to the number of workers competing for jobs. It is important to understand that even in theory the payment of the worker is not determined by the value of his product.

Private capital tends to become concentrated in few hands, partly because of competition among the capitalists, and partly because technological development and the increasing division of labor encourage the formation of larger units of production at the expense of the smaller ones. The result of these developments is an oligarchy of private capital the enormous power of which cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society. This is true since the members of legislative bodies are selected by political parties, largely financed or otherwise influenced by private capitalists who, for all practical purposes, separate the electorate from the legislature. The consequence is that the representatives of the people do not in fact sufficiently protect the interests of the underprivileged sections of the population. Moreover, under existing conditions, private capitalists inevitably control, directly or indirectly, the main sources of information (press, radio, education). It is thus extremely difficult, and indeed in most cases quite impossible, for the individual citizen to come to objective conclusions and to make intelligent use of his political rights.

The situation prevailing in an economy based on the private ownership of capital is thus characterized main principles: first, means of production (capital) are privately owned and the owners dispose of them as they see fit; second, the labor contract is free. Of course, there is no such thing as a pure capitalist society in this sense. In particular, it should be noted that the workers, through long and bitter political struggles, have succeeded in securing a somewhat improved form of the "free labor contract" for certain categories of workers. But taken as a whole, the present-day economy does not differ much from "pure" capitalism.

Production is carried on for profit, not for use. There is no provision that all those able and willing to work will always be in a position to find employment; an "army of unemployed" almost always exists. The worker is constantly in fear of losing his job. Since unemployed and poorly paid workers do not provide a profitable market, the production of consumers' goods is restricted, and great hardship is the consequence. Technological progress frequently results in more unemployment rather than in an easing of the burden of work for all. The profit motive, in conjunction with competition among capitalists, is responsible for an instability in the accumulation and utilization of capital which leads to increasingly severe depressions. Unlimited competition leads to a huge waste of labor, and to that crippling of the social consciousness of individuals which I mentioned before.

This crippling of individuals I consider the worst evil of capitalism. Our whole educational system suffers from this evil. An exaggerated competitive attitude is inculcated into the student, who is trained to worship acquisitive success as a preparation for his future career.

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals. In such an economy, the means of production are owned by society itself and are utilized in a planned fashion. A planned economy, which adjusts production to the needs of the community, would distribute the work to be done among all those able to work and would guarantee a livelihood to every man, woman, and child. The education of the individual, in addition to promoting his own innate abilities, would attempt to develop in him a sense of responsibility for his fellow-men in place of the glorification of power and success in our present society.

Nevertheless, it is necessary to remember that a planned economy is not yet socialism. A planned economy as such may be accompanied by the complete enslavement of the individual. The achievement of socialism requires the solution of some extremely difficult socio-political problems: how is it possible, in view of the far-reaching centralization of political and economic power, to prevent bureaucracy from becoming all-powerful and overweening? How can the rights of the individual be protected and therewith a democratic counterweight to the power of bureaucracy be assured?

calmus

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Re: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2008, 07:40:07 PM »

Always good to hear from Einstein. I just scanned the article... seemed like a lot of good sense in there. 

War-Horse

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Re: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2008, 08:45:23 PM »
Good article.    I believe that greed drives capitialism and that it destroys itself, eventually leading to a few Hoarding from the money.        Then a mutiny will occur and chaos.

Socialism some believe,.. means that man settles for mediocrity, that he must strive for his betterment.     However that just creates class division among the people leading to capitialist thinking.

True socialism would be a mutual agreement to help your fellowman while he helps you. Neither gains more to judge eachother and divide.  I help you build your home and we eat meals for free.  You help me build my home and the meals are free.   At the end of the day we are satisfied for hard work and its soul building effects.   We set goals and work to accomplish them.

Notice this does not mean handouts to the lazy...everyone can contribute something to a project.


LOL... Im a hippie now. ;D

CARTEL

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Re: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2008, 09:40:39 PM »
Stalin would agree that Socialism works  :)


Bindare_Dundat

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Re: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2008, 10:13:35 PM »


True socialism would be a mutual agreement to help your fellowman while he helps you. Neither gains more to judge eachother and divide.  I help you build your home and we eat meals for free.  You help me build my home and the meals are free.   At the end of the day we are satisfied for hard work and its soul building effects.   We set goals and work to accomplish them.






Unfortunatly the world you describe here will only exist in Star Trek episodes.

w8tlftr

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Re: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2008, 04:10:49 AM »
Unfortunatly the world you describe here will only exist in Star Trek episodes.

Yay socialist utopia.  ::)


Mars

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Re: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2008, 04:51:59 AM »
I am convinced that the path to a new, better and possible world is not capitalism, the path is socialism.  capitalism leads us straight to hell.

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Re: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2008, 05:42:40 AM »
  One of the concepts of Socialism is the idea that money, power and health care should be granted to everyone, including people who don't pull their own weight or do their fair share of the work. That's just plain wrong.

Eldon

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Re: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2008, 06:53:13 AM »
They are based on fundamentally different philosophies. Socialism devalues freedom and the rule of law. The rule of law says you should keep what is yours, socialism says the government should decide on the distribution of resources. Socialism says it is bad to keep what you earned but good to take the earnings of others.

Capitalism is just another word for free enterprize. Which is based on service to your fellow man. You can only get paid and earn a living by providing goods and services that your fellow man wants and is willing to buy. It is based on and compatible with Freedom and the rule of law. Socialism is not.

Eldon

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Re: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2008, 07:06:54 AM »
SOCIALISM Vs. CAPITALISM

by: C. Bradley Thompson

Throughout history there have been two basic forms of social organization: collectivism and individualism.

In the twentieth-century collectivism has taken many forms: socialism, fascism, nazism, welfare-statism and communism are its more notable variations.

The only social system commensurate with individualism is laissez-faire capitalism.

The intellectuals' mantra runs something like this: In theory socialism is the morally superior social system despite its dismal record of failure in the real world.

Under socialism a ruling class of intellectuals, bureaucrats and social planners decide what people want or what is good for society and then use the coercive power of the State to regulate, tax, and redistribute the wealth of those who work for a living.

Envy is the desire to not only possess another's wealth but also the desire to see another's wealth lowered to the level of one's own.

Socialism's teaching on self-sacrifice was nicely summarized by two of its greatest defenders, Hermann Goering and Bennito Mussolini.

The highest principle of Nazism (National Socialism), said Goering, is: "Common good comes before private good."

Socialism is the social system which institutionalizes envy and self-sacrifice: It is the social system which uses compulsion and the organized violence of the State to expropriate wealth from the producer class for its redistribution to the parasitical class.

It is both moral and just because the degree to which man rises or falls in society is determined by the degree to which he uses his mind.

Capitalism is the only social system that rewards merit, ability and achievement, regardless of one's birth or station in life.


Yes, there are winners and losers in capitalism.

The entrepreneur is that man or woman with unlimited drive, initiative, insight, energy, daring creativity, optimism and ingenuity.

The entrepreneur is the man who is constantly thinking of new ways to improve the material or spiritual lives of the greatest number of people.

Government taxation and regulation are the means by which social planners punish and restrict the man or woman of ideas.

Under socialism there are built-in incentives to shirk responsibility.

According to socialist doctrine, there is a limited amount of wealth in the world that must be divided equally between all citizens.

loco

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Re: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2008, 07:11:01 AM »
“The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.” - Winston Churchill

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Re: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2008, 08:09:39 AM »
Capitalism leads to the survival of the fittest, socialism the opposite.

We're humans with specific attributes which I believe means socialism will fail; example Europe, esp. Britain were the working person gets little, whilst the low life's reap the benefits of the system.

Natural selection has provided the perfect system for life on this planet and life as we know it, I can't see a creation by man being above that process.
الاسلام هو شيطانية

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Re: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2008, 08:23:38 AM »
  One of the concepts of Socialism is the idea that money, power and health care should be granted to everyone, including people who don't pull their own weight or do their fair share of the work. That's just plain wrong.

Yep
S

w8tlftr

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Re: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2008, 08:31:27 AM »
I am convinced that the path to a new, better and possible world is not capitalism, the path is socialism.  capitalism leads us straight to hell.

 ::)

shootfighter1

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Re: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2008, 08:33:59 AM »
Some socialist concepts may not be horrible but it relys on everyone pulling their share and contributing equally, which we know is impossible.  So, the system will be more unfair.  Plus, this concept stiffles any drive for creativity, competition and acheivement...which leads to advancement in nearly all aspects of society.

Extreme greed is where capitalism fails.  When people who acheive give back, it is IMO, the best system.

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Re: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2008, 08:34:06 AM »
Quote
Capitalism is the only social system that rewards merit, ability and achievement, regardless of one's birth or station in life.


There will always be winners and losers.   The problem is socialism by itself encourages people to be losers by not holding them accountable for their actions or inactions. 

However, Capitalism isn't all good by itself either as it potentially can make the playing field uneven for those who are trying to make something of themselves. 

Capitalism with just a little bit of socialism in the right areas applied the right way is best IMO.   

shootfighter1

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Re: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2008, 08:35:49 AM »
Capitalism with just a little bit of socialism in the right areas applied the right way is best IMO.

probably true but difficult to define.

Brixtonbulldog

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Re: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2008, 08:41:04 AM »
Decker and War-Horse.. at least you can now openly admit to being about as politically perverse as they come.

Everyone else, good posts.

A little bit of socialism can be a good thing but it's so hard to define that breaking point.  Until then the US is way left of center right now and I think conservatism is being lost on the newer generations.

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Re: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2008, 08:44:38 AM »
Capitalism with just a little bit of socialism in the right areas applied the right way is best IMO.

probably true but difficult to define.

I agree.  If you look at the system we have in the USA it's bloated and wasteful.   There are too many people on welfare getting a free ride.  There are agencies that are over staffed and inept at their functions.  Our education system is poorly ran and underfunded in the wrong areas.  The capitalistic part of Healthcare/drugs combined with malpractice suits makes it affording health insurance needlessly difficult.  Implied monopolies have caused higher prices.

Lots of problems.   But at the end of the day....... there's no place that I'd rather be than the USA!   Because the streets really are paved with gold if you are willing to do the work.

Decker

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Re: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2008, 08:48:28 AM »
Unfortunatly the world you describe here will only exist in Star Trek episodes.
I would tend to agree with this.

I don't know if I would go the extra mile beyond having a planned economy to having a planned economy with common ownership of the means of production.

I think capitalsim, in its present form, will be our undoing for the reasons Einstein sites:

*...Man's position in society is such that the egotistical drives of his make-up are constantly being accentuated, while his social drives, which are by nature weaker, progressively deteriorate.  (Capitalism thrives on acquisitive success--the most toys)

*We see before us a huge community of producers the members of which are unceasingly striving to deprive each other of the fruits of their collective labor....(winner take all of laissez-faire capitalism)

*Private capital tends to become concentrated in few hands....(antithetical to a democratic republic like the US's)

*Production is carried on for profit, not for use.   (Exploitation is the name of this game...even the extent of exhaustion of resources)

I think that a moderated, i.e., anti-laissez-faire, capitalism is a good start.



Decker

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Re: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2008, 08:52:09 AM »
Some socialist concepts may not be horrible but it relys on everyone pulling their share and contributing equally, which we know is impossible.  So, the system will be more unfair.  Plus, this concept stiffles any drive for creativity, competition and acheivement...which leads to advancement in nearly all aspects of society.

Extreme greed is where capitalism fails.  When people who acheive give back, it is IMO, the best system.
I agree with you here.  Laissez-faire capitalism, or any pretension to it, turns out to be a loser.

A moderated capitalistic system where a portion of private profits are returned to the government for redistribution to areas of need seems to be eminently sensible.

Decker

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Re: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2008, 08:54:26 AM »
Quote
Decker and War-Horse.. at least you can now openly admit to being about as politically perverse as they come.
Why I dignify this crap with an answer is beyond me.

Quote
Everyone else, good posts.
Way to exercise those thinking skills.  By the way, the herd's on the right...but I see you are already there.

Quote
A little bit of socialism can be a good thing but it's so hard to define that breaking point.  Until then the US is way left of center right now and I think conservatism is being lost on the newer generations.
How is the US "way left of center right now?"

Conservatism has been dead for 50 years.

Rightwing nonsense embodied by the Reagan Revolution is what has become of "conservatism".

w8tlftr

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Re: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2008, 09:17:38 AM »
I agree with you here.  Laissez-faire capitalism, or any pretension to it, turns out to be a loser.

A moderated capitalistic system where a portion of private profits are returned to the government for redistribution to areas of need seems to be eminently sensible.

I think you place too much faith in our elected officials to do right by our hard earned money. I, hopefully, don't think anyone here would have issues with helping those truly less fortunate. However, I think we've seen time and time again how our government has wasted our money on BS programs here and BS programs abroad.


Decker

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Re: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2008, 09:28:20 AM »
I think you place too much faith in our elected officials to do right by our hard earned money. I, hopefully, don't think anyone here would have issues with helping those truly less fortunate. However, I think we've seen time and time again how our government has wasted our money on BS programs here and BS programs abroad.


I don't have faith in anything outside myself.  But the will of the people as shown by the acts of their elected representatives can be an effective thing.

I agree, the government is far from perfect.  But it does do some good things.  The public must always be vigilant in taking stock of worthwhile governmental programs.  I always think back to that senator that cried and threatened to quit Congress if the money was cut for a bridge to nowhere.  That's what happens when people only give a shit about themselves and "what's in it for me?" 

"...there was something in it for me if I could help him out."

--Fredo Corleone


w8tlftr

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Re: What is Wrong With Socialism and why is Capitalism better?
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2008, 09:38:54 AM »
I don't have faith in anything outside myself.  But the will of the people as shown by the acts of their elected representatives can be an effective thing.

I agree, the government is far from perfect.  But it does do some good things.  The public must always be vigilant in taking stock of worthwhile governmental programs.  I always think back to that senator that cried and threatened to quit Congress if the money was cut for a bridge to nowhere.  That's what happens when people only give a shit about themselves and "what's in it for me?" 

"...there was something in it for me if I could help him out."

--Fredo Corleone


You are right when you say the government does do some good things but how many times have we seen billions get pissed away and the American taxpayer holding the bill? I just disagree with those that say socialism is the way to go because, IMO, it just promotes more "what can the government do for me?" attitudes.

In the end we only have ourselves to blame.

We need to change our national symbol from the bald eagle to an old dried out pig with little piglets sucking the life out of it.