Is God Cruel?

[OzmO]

To which I did answer that the God of the Bible won't tell you to smack a child in the face.  First of all, you don't even believe in the God of the Bible.  Second of all, the God of the Bible already told Christians to turn the other cheek in order to win non-Christians over to Jesus Christ.

He did tell that to the Jews.....  well he told them to kill them.

And we are back to speaking for God.  Saying what he can and cannot do.

[loco]

He did tell that to the Jews.....  well he told them to kill them.

And we are back to speaking for God.  Saying what he can and cannot do.

Your point?

[MCWAY]

You post a quote from a site.

I have to assume you believe in it, since you leave the quote without comments.

When God caused the Red Sea to close, drowning Pharaoh’s entire army, He was punishing Pharaoh’s rebellion against Him and preserving His chosen people from certain slaughter and annihilation (Exodus 14).

God is almighty, and could easily have chosen to find a way to stop the rebellion without the slaughtering of thousands of Egyptians.

Of course, you forget the whole "free will" factor, specifically that of Pharoah using the other NINE chances he had to release Israel, before that tenth plague hit. When the firstborn (including his own son) died, it finally hit home and Pharoah submitted.

And, there's also the matter that the Egyptians, who followed Israel's lead and did the Passover thing, were spared.

Wrongdoing that does not result in punishment inevitably results in greater and greater wrongdoing, which benefits no one and is detrimental to the common good.

Jesus seems to disagree. He says to turn the other cheek and to give the cloak. Is this website you believe in more right than Jesus?

He also said, "Vengeance is Mine. I will repay".

Even when God told the Israelites to completely destroy the enemies of God, including women and children, He knew that to let them live would ensure the existence of future generations devoted to evil idolatrous practices—including in some cases child sacrifices on the altars of false gods.


STella, how can you even begin to defend the murdering of children?

I gotta say that I'm quite surprised.

Here's how some of how the defense goes:

-  They would have grown up to be evil like their parents
-  They would have starved to death
-  A parents sin will affect those whose are innocent

Yep!!! The last sentence pretty much covers the rest. As I've stated numerous times, the worst part about sinful behavior is that those who commit aren't the only ones who pay the price for it.

I'll go out on a limb and say that EVERYONE ON THIS THREAD (Christian or not) has been hurt (adversely affected) by someone else's wrongdoing. And EVERYONE ON THIS THREAD had done something wrong that has hurt (adversely affected) someone else.

[loco]

OzmO,
I answered your questions.  Are you going to answer my questions?

Do you believe that God is NOT cruel?  Why?

As for children suffering for the sins of the parents, it happens everyday.  You have mocked Christians and you have mocked the God of the Bible before because casual sex is a sin.  Tell me, does casual sex not have consequences?  Tell me, in millions of cases do children not suffer because of their parent's casual sex?  What did this children do?  Yet they suffer because of their parent's sin.  What answer have you or the God that you believe in for this?  Is your God cruel?

[Decker]

So there is a God, but

1.  He is not personal
2.  He is not the God of the Bible

Why?

The mathematical elegance of the universe coupled with the idea that something exists instead of nothing leaves me inclined to believe God exists.

He is not a personal God b/c that is the creation of people afraid of the dark--the avuncular benevolent ruler watching over us always.

The Bible was written by men to codify a way to live.  God was the enforcer in the OT--a killer of monstrous proportions for those not living according to the rules set out.

[MCWAY]

The mathematical elegance of the universe coupled with the idea that something exists instead of nothing leaves me inclined to believe God exists.

He is not a personal God b/c that is the creation of people afraid of the dark--the avuncular benevolent ruler watching over us always.

The Bible was written by men to codify a way to live.  God was the enforcer in the OT--a killer of monstrous proportions for those not living according to the rules set out.

For the most part, the only codifying in the Bible occurs in the Pentateuch (the 5 books of Moses: Genesis-Deuteronomy). All the other instructions are offshoots of these law, based on the Ten Commandments.

[Deicide]

The very existence of this thread is a testament to the fact that homo sapiens has not advanced nearly as much as he is inclined to believe. Isn't it 2008?!

As for you deists; I don't get you, you may as well be atheists.

[Decker]

For the most part, the only codifying in the Bible occurs in the Pentateuch (the 5 books of Moses: Genesis-Deuteronomy). All the other instructions are offshoots of these law, based on the Ten Commandments.

The whole bible is a catalog of how the people fail to live up to God's covenants--Abrahamic, Davidic, Mosaic etc.

[MCWAY]

The very existence of this thread is a testament to the fact that homo sapiens has not advanced nearly as much as he is inclined to believe. Isn't it 2008?!

It's a testament to the fact that, much to the chagrin of certain atheists, belief in God is still relevant and active.

As for you deists; I don't get you, you may as well be atheists.

Not quite. atheism is the belief that there is NO supreme being or supernatural entity. As long as you believe that such exists, you are not an atheist.

[Butterbean]

How do you defend the killing of children STella?

How do you tell yourself it was ok for God to kill all those young babies, and those little boys and girls who were only a few years old.

We recently had one 7 year old killed and sexually assaulted here in Sweden. She was lost for several days before found. The whole nation is mourning.

Her name: Engla (a Swedish form of Angel)

Consider that one little girl. And her murder multiplied by thousands.

And done by God?

How is the act justified?

How is it right?

And most importantly:

STella, why do you follow a God who murders so many babies and children?

That's terrible about Engla Zack and I know it matters not to you but I'm praying for her family.
 
I'm unsure if you think that God ordered her rape and death but I can tell you that no, I believe He did NOT.
 
As for the "murder" of many babies by God in the O.T. you should know that I don't believe God allowing/ordering/orchestrating/causing the death of anyone is "murder."  I believe He is the Creator/Sustainer/TAker of life and the Righteous Judge of the Universe. 
 
Of course we all would like to think that there was another way He could have accomplished what He deemed necessary - but I also keep in mind that I am not omniscient. 

So in answer to your question I don't believe what God did is murder and I suppose I accept His reasons for doing what He did.   Much like you may accept reasons of pregnant women to end the lives of their babies.

(To clarify I don't think decisions to end the lives of babies is taken lightly or in an absence of anguish)

[Butterbean]

The Bible was written by men to codify a way to live. 

He is not a personal God b/c that is the creation of people afraid of the dark--the avuncular benevolent ruler watching over us always.

The whole bible is a catalog of how the people fail to live up to God's covenants--Abrahamic, Davidic, Mosaic etc.

But if it was written by men alone merely to "codify a way to live" why is there so much talk of "grace through faith and not of works so that no one can boast? (Eph 2:8,9)"  Why does it show that no one can live up to God's law so He sent them a Savior who provides us a free gift of forgiveness?  Why would it tell us that once we believe nothing can "snatch us out of His hand?"

[Butterbean]

I'll go out on a limb and say that EVERYONE ON THIS THREAD (Christian or not) has been hurt (adversely affected) by someone else's wrongdoing. And EVERYONE ON THIS THREAD had done something wrong that has hurt (adversely affected) someone else.

Agree

[OzmO]

OzmO,

Do you believe that God is NOT cruel?  Why?

Cruel is a matter of perception.  So that's very difficult to answer.  But regarding the issues of killing innocent children as a cruelty that God enacted through Jewish soldiers; that i do not believe is God.  I do not believe that is the act of a divine being.

As for children suffering for the sins of the parents, it happens everyday.  You have mocked Christians and you have mocked the God of the Bible before because casual sex is a sin.  Tell me, does casual sex not have consequences?

Every action has consequences when those actions are done with the absence of responsibility.   Responsible casual sex has infrequent consequences.  The same infrequent consequences one would have driving down the street responsibly.

Tell me, in millions of cases do children not suffer because of their parent's casual sex?

Yes they suffer, but by whose hand?  But God's deliberate actions?  Or by the actions of their parents who acted irresponsibly?

Do those parents have the power to chose to act responsibly and take care of their children born from casual sex?

Did God have the power to spare the lives of innocent children who were ordered to by him to be killed?

Is God of the OT acting irresponsibly by not taking care of the innocent children he orphaned by his actions? 

What answer have you or the God that you believe in for this?  Is your God cruel?

It's not my god or you god.  god is god. 

In addition to the already answering the above questions:  You comparison to the consequences of casual sex are almost laughable in comparing that to killing innocent children.  At the very least even though those children born of casual sex do suffer they are not BEheaded on this Alleged God's orders.  They still have a chance in life, just as a responsible less ego manic, less jealous, less nut job, less rage-aholic god in the OT would have done.
 

[Deicide]

Cruel is a matter of perception.  So that's very difficult to answer.  But regarding the issues of killing innocent children as a cruelty that God enacted through Jewish soldiers; that i do not believe is God.  I do not believe that is the act of a divine being.

Every action has consequences when those actions are done with the absence of responsibility.   Responsible casual sex has infrequent consequences.  The same infrequent consequences one would have driving down the street responsibly.
 

Yes they suffer, but by whose hand?  But God's deliberate actions?  Or by the actions of their parents who acted irresponsibly?

Do those parents have the power to chose to act responsibly and take care of their children born from casual sex?

Did God have the power to spare the lives of innocent children who were ordered to by him to be killed?

Is God of the OT acting irresponsibly by not taking care of the innocent children he orphaned by his actions? 

It's not my god or you god.  god is god. 

In addition to the already answering the above questions:  You comparison to the consequences of casual sex are almost laughable in comparing that to killing innocent children.  At the very least even though those children born of casual sex do suffer they are not BEheaded on this Alleged God's orders.  They still have a chance in life, just as a responsible less ego manic, less jealous, less nut job, less rage-aholic god in the OT would have done.
 

One thing is for sure: if you ever got in a fight with Yahweh, you could beat him senseless with a rod of iron; it's his one weakness.

[OzmO]

Your point?

Who are you to speak for god?  That's my point.

Additionally, Going back to the original story about the kid on the bench that i slapped,  (i hope you now fully realize this is just a hypothetical story), Had "God" told me to do it would it have been ok?

[OzmO]

One thing is for sure: if you ever got in a fight with Yahweh, you could beat him senseless with a rod of iron; it's his one weakness.

huh?   Did you talk about this earlier in the thread?

[loco]

Cruel is a matter of perception.  So that's very difficult to answer.  But regarding the issues of killing innocent children as a cruelty that God enacted through Jewish soldiers; that i do not believe is God.  I do not believe that is the act of a divine being.

Every action has consequences when those actions are done with the absence of responsibility.   Responsible casual sex has infrequent consequences.  The same infrequent consequences one would have driving down the street responsibly.
 

Yes they suffer, but by whose hand?  But God's deliberate actions?  Or by the actions of their parents who acted irresponsibly?

Do those parents have the power to chose to act responsibly and take care of their children born from casual sex?

Did God have the power to spare the lives of innocent children who were ordered to by him to be killed?

Is God of the OT acting irresponsibly by not taking care of the innocent children he orphaned by his actions? 

It's not my god or you god.  god is god. 

In addition to the already answering the above questions:  You comparison to the consequences of casual sex are almost laughable in comparing that to killing innocent children.  At the very least even though those children born of casual sex do suffer they are not BEheaded on this Alleged God's orders.  They still have a chance in life, just as a responsible less ego manic, less jealous, less nut job, less rage-aholic god in the OT would have done.

In other words, yes, children suffer for the bad choices of the parents.  It happens all the time.

And if there really is a God, and if He is the only God, and if this God really did order Israel to destroy wicked nations, along with their children, so what?   If this is true, it is true whether you and I believe it or not.  It is true whether you and I like it or not.  I don't like death, but all my loved ones will die, and so will I, whether I like it or not, whether I believe it or not.

I have faith in Jesus Christ, who constantly quoted the Old Testament and said it is Truth.

[Deicide]

huh?   Did you talk about this earlier in the thread?

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
— Judges 1:19 

[loco]

Who are you to speak for god?  That's my point.

Who's speaking for God?

Additionally, Going back to the original story about the kid on the bench that i slapped,  (i hope you now fully realize this is just a hypothetical story), Had "God" told me to do it would it have been ok?

What?  If God told you to smack a kid in the face and you do it, would it be okay with God?  Yes.  Why wouldn't it be okay with God when God is the one who ordered you to do it?  

I don't get your point and your analogy is still terrible.

[OzmO]

In other words, yes, children suffer for the bad choices of the parents.  It happens all the time.

Yeah, i said that.  But they don;t get behead by the entity who has the power NOT to order others to punish them.

That's why your argument in response to the killing of innocent children in the  OT on God's orders is so ridiculous.

And if there really is a God, and if He is the only God, and if this God really did order Israel to destroy wicked nations, along with their children, so what?   If this is true, it is true whether you and I believe it or not.  It is true whether you and I like it or not.  I don't like death, but all my loved ones will die, and so will I, whether I like it or not, whether I believe it or not.

Lot of If's there.  So what?  You identify with a God that killed innocent children.  I don't.

I have faith in Jesus Christ, who constantly quoted the Old Testament and said it is Truth.

So what?


BTW,  i see you didn't answer my questions.  figures.

[Decker]

But if it was written by men alone merely to "codify a way to live" why is there so much talk of "grace through faith and not of works so that no one can boast? (Eph 2:8,9)"  Why does it show that no one can live up to God's law so He sent them a Savior who provides us a free gift of forgiveness?  Why would it tell us that once we believe nothing can "snatch us out of His hand?"

Grace?  Right thinking and right action.  I don't see the mystery.  What about all the dietary admonitions, the rules for proper worship/sacrifice, the 10 commandments, the covenants:  These all look like 'how to' instructions to me.  The artisitic license to embellish this 'how to' book with an enforcer--god and all his attendant magics such as grace and miracles and such are examples of artistic license.  Once a member of the right thinking right acting club, you're in it for good.

[Deicide]

Yeah, i said that.  But they don;t get behead by the entity who has the power NOT to order others to punish them.

That's why your argument in response to the killing of innocent children in the  OT on God's orders is so ridiculous.

Lot of If's there.  So what?  You identify with a God that killed innocent children.  I don't.

So what?


BTW,  i see you didn't answer my questions.  figures.

Or an iron sword maybe....and iron sword and shield and you can give old Yahweh a nice beat down!

[loco]

Yeah, i said that.  But they don;t get behead by the entity who has the power NOT to order others to punish them.

That's why your argument in response to the killing of innocent children in the  OT on God's orders is so ridiculous.

Lot of If's there.  So what?  You identify with a God that killed innocent children.  I don't.

So what?


BTW,  i see you didn't answer my questions.  figures.

Yes.  So what?

What questions?

[OzmO]

Who's speaking for God?

You are. 

What?  If God told you to smack a kid in the face and you do it, would it be okay with God?  Yes.  Why wouldn't it be okay with God when God is the one who ordered you to do it? 

I don't get your point and your analogy is still terrible.

No it's actually a beautiful analogy, becuase while God tells me to smack a child for the sins of others long dead, the rest of the world would condemn my actions based on the fact that it wrong to punish an innocent child for someone else's sins.

That's how stupid your argument about killing innocent children is becuase of the sins of their parents and it is another great example of how pathetically outdated and barbaric the OT is and is certainly not anywhere near God but instead a history of primitive superstitious people that even today people are dumb enough to think is a 100% testament and word of God.

[OzmO]

Yes.  So what?

What questions?

I even bolded the question marks.