Is God Cruel?

[loco]

I even bolded the question marks.   

Where?  Just ask the question and stop playing chilidish games.

[OzmO]

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
— Judges 1:19 

Oh yeah, i bought this up a while ago on this forum and was told that the only explanation is that the lord was not with Judah when they went into the valley even though it is essentially in the same sentence.............lol

[loco]

You are. 

I'm not.  How so?

No it's actually a beautiful analogy, becuase while God tells me to smack a child for the sins of others long dead, the rest of the world would condemn my actions based on the fact that it wrong to punish an innocent child for someone else's sins.

No, it's a terrible analogy.

And just because the rest of the world condemns an action doesn't automatically mean that the rest of the world is right.  If God tells you to smack the kid in the face and you do it, then it is okay with God because it is God who ordered you to do it.

That's how stupid your argument about killing innocent children is becuase of the sins of their parents and it is another great example of how pathetically outdated and barbaric the OT is and is certainly not anywhere near God but instead a history of primitive superstitious people that even today people are dumb enough to think is a 100% testament and word of God.

Maybe my argument is stupid.  So what?  I have faith that the OT is the word of God and that God has His good reasons for doing what He does.

[OzmO]

I'm not.  How so?

You decide whether God would or would not speak to me.

No, it's a terrible analogy.

And just because the rest of the world condemns an action doesn't automatically mean that the rest of the world is right.  If God tells you to smack the kid in the face and you do it, then it is okay with God because it is God who ordered you to do it.

So the rest of the world isn't right when they denounce innocent children ordered to be killed for the sins of their parents?   


that's almost on the same twisted level radical Islam is.

Maybe my argument is stupid.  So what?  I have faith that the OT is the word of God and that God has His good reasons for doing what He does.

That's the difference between conservative Christians like yourself and me.  I see no good reason or justification for it and sensibly see the OT for it is:  A book of stories written by primitive men.

[Deedee]

Hey Deedee!  God did order the destruction of wicked nations, including their children.

But please do show me where in the Bible God orders "the dashing of babies against rocks, ripping open the bellies of pregnant women, savage rape and multiple rape (gangbangs".  I'm not just asking you to please show me where in the Bible this happened, but where exactly in the Bible does God order or condone the above.  Just because it's in the Bible doesn't automatically mean that God approves of it.

Hiya Loco, missed you!  

The bible is written by the hand of God, therefore he condones/approves of its contents. If you are saying that parts of it, or the bible in its entirety, is man-created, then that throws everything out the window doesn't it? We can discard what we don't like since man's perception is open to fallacy.

Here are a few examples Loco.  There are many but I don't want to spam the board.    I can post a link with the full list of atrocities (by modern human standards).

Numbers

31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.           
31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

31:35 And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.


They got 32,000 virgins    - after watching their children, babies, husbands, fathers, mothers butchered, these women were then raped, and kidnapped, by order of God.

Deut.

20:13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:       
(20:13-14) In the cities that god "delivers" to you, kill all the males (including old men, boys, and babies) with "the edge of the sword.... But the women ... shalt thou take unto yourself."
Holy War and the Holy Father: the Bible vs the Quran
20:14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
20:15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.   
20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:     
(20:16-17)"Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth ... as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee." Kill the old men and women, the sick and the dying, the blind and the lame, pregnant mothers, nursing mothers, infants, toddlers, and babies.
20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

Again, butchering of masses of people, including children, babies, old sick people,  pregnant women, men, etc...  And again, kidnapping and mass raping of virgins.


Hosea 13:15 -18

"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled
against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be
dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)
 
"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is
joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their
houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15,16)
 
"Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they
shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare
children." (Isaiah 13:18)

2 Kings 15:16

Then Menahem smote Tiphsah, and all that were therein, and the coasts thereof from Tirzah: because they opened not to him, therefore he smote it; and all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.
 

It's all there Loco, and much, much more.  Those who don't believe look at these stories as an oral history put into writing that chronicles an ancient civilization as it struggled to survive. Those who believe, simply trust, and I'm guessing you fall into that family.  One thing for sure, if God's tactics were employed today, the war in Iraq would've been settled within 6 months.  

Loco, as an aside, turning the other cheek has little to do with seducing non-believers or promoting a pacifist attitude.  It was more of an admonishment to the people not to take justice into their own hands, but to allow the governments to administer it.

[Deedee]

how do you think they killed them loco?  Gave them sleeping pills?   

 

[loco]

Hiya Loco, missed you!  

The bible is written by the hand of God, therefore he condones/approves of its contents. If you are saying that parts of it, or the bible in its entirety, is man-created, then that throws everything out the window doesn't it? We can discard what we don't like since man's perception is open to fallacy.

Here are a few examples Loco.  There are many but I don't want to spam the board.    I can post a link with the full list of atrocities (by modern human standards).

Numbers

31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.           
Moses tells the Israelites to kill every male and all the non-virgin females, but to keep the virgins for themselves.

31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

31:35 And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.

They got 32,000 virgins    - after watching their children, babies, husbands, fathers, mothers butchered, these women were then raped, and kidnapped, by order of God.

Deut.

20:13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:       
(20:13-14) In the cities that god "delivers" to you, kill all the males (including old men, boys, and babies) with "the edge of the sword.... But the women ... shalt thou take unto yourself."
Holy War and the Holy Father: the Bible vs the Quran
20:14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
20:15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.   
20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:     
(20:16-17)"Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth ... as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee." Kill the old men and women, the sick and the dying, the blind and the lame, pregnant mothers, nursing mothers, infants, toddlers, and babies.
20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

Again, butchering of masses of people, including children, babies, old sick people,  pregnant women, men, etc...  And again, kidnapping and mass raping of virgins.


Hosea 13:15 -18

"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled
against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be
dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)
 
"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is
joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their
houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15,16)
 
"Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they
shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare
children." (Isaiah 13:18)

2 Kings 15:16

Then Menahem smote Tiphsah, and all that were therein, and the coasts thereof from Tirzah: because they opened not to him, therefore he smote it; and all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.
 

It's all there Loco, and much, much more.  

Thanks Deedee, but you injected your own words and your own interpretation into the Bible above and to one who has not read the Bible it would appear that your words are in the Bible.

Those who don't believe look at these stories as an oral history put into writing that chronicles an ancient civilization as it struggled to survive. Those who believe, simply trust, and I'm guessing you fall into that family.  One thing for sure, if God's tactics were employed today, the war in Iraq would've been settled within 6 months.  

I agree, those who have faith simply trust God.  And yes, I do fall into that family and so do all Christians who believe that the Bible is the word of God.

Loco, as an aside, turning the other cheek has little to do with seducing non-believers or promoting a pacifist attitude.  It was more of an admonishment to the people not to take justice into their own hands, but to allow the governments to administer it.

Defending yourself is not necessarily considered unlawful or vengeful.  Governments don't demand that we turn the other cheek.  Turning the other cheek is unnatural and unexpected, and characteristic of one like Jesus.  Running away or hitting back is expected, but not turning the other cheek to be struck again.  Jesus was all about spreading the Gospel, with our words and with our actions.

[loco]

You decide whether God would or would not speak to me.

No I don't.

So the rest of the world isn't right when they denounce innocent children ordered to be killed for the sins of their parents?   

Would the rest of the world be right if they decided that all Jews must die?

that's almost on the same twisted level radical Islam is.

That's the difference between conservative Christians like yourself and me.  I see no good reason or justification for it and sensibly see the OT for it is:  A book of stories written by primitive men.

You sure beat around the bush to make your point.  So biblical Christianity and Orthodox Judaism is "almost on the same twisted level radical Islam is"   

OzmO,
Don't you think that what multitudes believe would affect how they act?  Christians and Jews do not associate with a cruel, murderous god.  If we did, don't you think it would show in our actions?  How is it harmful for Christians and Jews to believe that the OT is the word of God?  Look at the Salvation Army, George Muller, Lottie Moon, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Jim Elliot, Sir Isaac Newton, Blaise Pascal, just to name a few who believe the OT is the word of God.  You are going to put us all in the same level as radicals Islam?  

[MCWAY]

One thing is for sure: if you ever got in a fight with Yahweh, you could beat him senseless with a rod of iron; it's his one weakness.

Iron sure helped the Amalekites, didn’t they?

[loco]

The bible is written by the hand of God, therefore he condones/approves of its contents. If you are saying that parts of it, or the bible in its entirety, is man-created, then that throws everything out the window doesn't it?

Deedee,
The Bible is not written by the hand of God, except for the 10 commandments and some words in the book of Daniel.  The rest was "dictated" by God in some cases such as with Moses and other prophets.  Other parts were "inspired" by God, as is the case with David, Solomon, etc.

And no, God does not automatically condone or approve of every action of every person that was recorded in the Bible.

[OzmO]

No I don't.

Would the rest of the world be right if they decided that all Jews must die?

You sure beat around the bush to make your point.  So biblical Christianity and Orthodox Judaism is "almost on the same twisted level radical Islam is"   

That's not the point I'm making at all.  Maybe you are doing that thing again where you deflect or redirect to another issue.  Re-read our whole exchange and re-read the word "almost".

Would the rest of the world be right if they decided that all Jews must die?

Of course not.  And we are talking about innocent children not all Jews.

OzmO,
Don't you think that what multitudes believe would affect how they act? 

Yes.

Christians and Jews do not associate with a cruel, murderous god.

Is killing innocent children not cruel and murderous?  (I wonder if you will answer this question or will you do like the other ones i  asked and ignore them and then complain i don;t answer yours )   

If we did, don't you think it would show in our actions?

It does becuase in the face of this evil act you still say it is god who told those soldiers to kill innocent children.

How is it harmful for Christians and Jews to believe that the OT is the word of God?

VERY!   Because those who would believe "god" told a group of Jews to kill innocent children and and cannot see the evil in it and believe that GOD is not morally accountable are vulnerable to manipulations of others who would use religion and alleged divine inspiration/guidence to justify unwarranted and immoral violent actions.

My point was proven well when you said if God told me to slap the child then god must have had a good reason for it.

Look at the Salvation Army, George Muller, Lottie Moon, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Jim Elliot, Sir Isaac Newton, Blaise Pascal, just to name a few who believe the OT is the word of God.  You are going to put us all in the same level as radicals Islam?

No.  Not even close to the same level.  But you and they share some similarities which i outlined earlier.

[loco]

that's almost on the same twisted level radical Islam is.

You said it, now you are backtracking.

When was the last time you saw Orthodox Jews and Christians killing children on orders from God?   

[OzmO]

You said it, now you are backtracking.

When was the last time you saw Orthodox Jews and Christians killing children on orders from God?   

I never saw it.  I wasn't alive then.  But if it's the truth as you say.  I read about it.

re-read again:  ALMOST on the same level....

re-read this too:

So the rest of the world isn't right when they denounce innocent children ordered to be killed for the sins of their parents?

[Deedee]

Thanks Deedee, but you injected your own words and your own interpretation into the Bible above and to one who has not read the Bible it would appear that your words are in the Bible.

Voopsie... got carried away with the bolding. However, these do illustrate a few of the cruelties depicted in the bible and as condoned or ordained by God. Taken purely in context of what was written. What was actually in the mind of God, if you believe, is not to be fathomed by not-even-mere specs in the universe.  That's why these feel good articles are only that, and nothing more.

God of the OT is an extremely cruel god, or at least amazingly capricious, if his actions/whims are judged by today's human standards.  That's why I used the Iraq analogy. Certainly God is on the side of western sensibilities, many Americans believe that God has in fact communicated through G.W., but even so, we would NEVER employ the OT tactics God ordered in the bible. Can you imagine?

I think that's the point Ozmo is trying to make to you.  

Defending yourself is not necessarily considered unlawful or vengeful.  Governments don't demand that we turn the other cheek.  Turning the other cheek is unnatural and unexpected, and characteristic of one like Jesus.  Running away or hitting back is expected, but not turning the other cheek to be struck again.  Jesus was all about spreading the Gospel, with our words and with our actions.

But "turning the other cheek" as admonished by Jesus was to avoid vigilanteism among the people. He was saying to leave the meting out of justice to the elders, the governing bodies, not take matters into their own hands.  A little bit of a difference from what you're implying.

[loco]

I never saw it.  I wasn't alive then.  But if it's the truth as you say.  I read about it.

re-read again:  ALMOST on the same level....

re-read this too:

So you are afraid Orthodox Jews and Christians are one day going to come kill your children on orders from God?  

You are so easily scared, border line paranoid.  There are plenty of real threats out there for you to fear.  No need to create threats that aren't real and to put Orthodox Jews and Christians on the same level of radical Islam.

[Deedee]

Deedee,
The Bible is not written by the hand of God, except for the 10 commandments and some words in the book of Daniel.  The rest was "dictated" by God in some cases such as with Moses and other prophets.  Other parts were "inspired" by God, as is the case with David, Solomon, etc.

And no, God does not automatically condone or approve of every action of every person that was recorded in the Bible.

Oh well then you run into problems, if that's what you believe. It certainly seems that whatever displeases God is written in no esoteric or abstract way.  What he doesn't like... is pretty plain.  When I said written, I meant dictated, same diff.  And if parts of the bible are simply inspired, and are the musings of mere men, then why would anyone take it at face value? What if they were wrong, or injecting their own human perceptions and prejudices? What a shame it would be if all this time people committed terrible acts believing it to be in the name of God when in reality it wasn't.  

You could then go a step further and say that so much suffering has occurred these thousands of years simply because a bunch of elders sitting around the fire one night, bemoaning the lack of hut building caused by too much wanton fornication, came up with the concept of Yahweh.

[MCWAY]

One thing is for sure: if you ever got in a fight with Yahweh, you could beat him senseless with a rod of iron; it's his one weakness.

Apparently, you missed Judges 4. Iron chariots didn't help this guy, Sisera:

Verses 2-4:

And the LORD sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan, that reigned in Hazor; the captain of whose host was Sisera, which dwelt in Harosheth of the Gentiles. And the children of Israel cried unto the LORD: for he had nine hundred chariots of iron; and twenty years he mightily oppressed the children of Israel. And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

Verses 13-16:

And Sisera gathered together all his chariots, even nine hundred chariots of iron, and all the people that were with him, from Harosheth of the Gentiles unto the river of Kishon. And Deborah said unto Barak, Up; for this is the day in which the LORD hath delivered Sisera into thine hand: is not the LORD gone out before thee? So Barak went down from mount Tabor, and ten thousand men after him. And the LORD discomfited Sisera, and all his chariots, and all his host, with the edge of the sword before Barak; so that Sisera lighted down off his chariot, and fled away on his feet. But Barak pursued after the chariots, and after the host, unto Harosheth of the Gentiles: and all the host of Sisera fell upon the edge of the sword; and there was not a man left.

Maybe, all the situation needed was a woman's touch. Can I get an "AMEN", STella?

[loco]

Voopsie... got carried away with the bolding. However, these do illustrate a few of the cruelties depicted in the bible and as condoned or ordained by God. Taken purely in context of what was written. What was actually in the mind of God, if you believe, is not to be fathomed by not-even-mere specs in the universe.  That's why these feel good articles are only that, and nothing more.

God of the OT is an extremely cruel god, or at least amazingly capricious, if his actions/whims are judged by today's human standards.  That's why I used the Iraq analogy. Certainly God is on the side of western sensibilities, many Americans believe that God has in fact communicated through G.W., but even so, we would NEVER employ the OT tactics God ordered in the bible. Can you imagine?

I disagree.  The God of the OT shows mercy, justice and love too.  So He is either cruel or He is not.  

I think that's the point Ozmo is trying to make to you.  

You think?  Yes, OzmO needs all the help he can get to explain himself.    

But "turning the other cheek" as admonished by Jesus was to avoid vigilanteism among the people. He was saying to leave the meting out of justice to the elders, the governing bodies, not take matters into their own hands.  A little bit of a difference from what you're implying.

Guess we'll agree to disagree here.

[OzmO]

So you are afraid Orthodox Jews and Christians are one day going to come kill your children on orders from God? 

You are so easily scared, border line paranoid.  There are plenty of real threats out there for you to fear.  No need to create threats that aren't real and to put Orthodox Jews and Christians on the same level of radical Islam.

Doing everything you can to defect from the issue of God killing innocent Children again aren't you?

Aside form that you running from my questions you are desperately attempting to make more of what i said, ignoring the some of the words i used, in hopes to change the direction of the discussion.

Maybe you need to break out your English dictionary.

You think?  Yes, OzmO needs all the help he can get to explain himself.    Wink

No need.  the problem is not me needing help to explain myself, it's me and others needing help to show how undivine killing innocent children is to you.

[loco]

Oh well then you run into problems, if that's what you believe. It certainly seems that whatever displeases God is written in no esoteric or abstract way.  What he doesn't like... is pretty plain.  When I said written, I meant dictated, same diff.  And if parts of the bible are simply inspired, and are the musings of mere men, then why would anyone take it at face value? What if they were wrong, or injecting their own human perceptions and prejudices? What a shame it would be if all this time people committed terrible acts believing it to be in the name of God when in reality it wasn't.  

You could then go a step further and say that so much suffering has occurred these thousands of years simply because a bunch of elders sitting around the fire one night, bemoaning the lack of hut building caused by too much wanton fornication, came up with the concept of Yahweh.

Deedee,
It is not that this is what I believe, but that is what the Bible says.  Being God inspired and being hand written by God is not the same difference.  The Koran for example, I'm told, was written, not inspired, by God.  

Yes, men wrote the Bible, inspired by God.  And yes, God allowed them to write what God inspired them to write in the mood the author happen to be in at that moment, using his talent(song, poem, etc.), but the message throughout the Bible is the same.  I am aware that you do not believe this, but I do have faith that what they wrote was inspired by God and that it is God's word and not the word of men.

[loco]

Doing everything you can to defect from the issue of God killing innocent Children again aren't you?

Aside form that you running from my questions you are desperately attempting to make more of what i said, ignoring the some of the words i used, in hopes to change the direction of the discussion.

Maybe you need to break out your English dictionary.

No need.  the problem is not me needing help to explain myself, it's me and others needing help to show how undivine killing innocent children is to you.

Way to ignore my posts and my questions.  And what's this about "break out your English dictionary"?  Is that supposed to be a racist insult against Hispanics?   

[Deedee]

I disagree.  The God of the OT shows mercy, justice and love too.  So He is either cruel or He is not.  

Says you.    You are speaking in human terms about a non-human entity. That's kind of presumptuous.  And if you look at figgs' early comment that since the Creator Of All is within every living thing, even the raped virgins, the slashed up pregnant women, the dashed to pieces babies and murdered sick old people... he's committing these acts against "Himself" as well... that puts a different spin on all of what's being discussed here.  Maybe cruelty is simply capriciousness, playfulness, or omniscient masochism.

Guess we'll agree to disagree here.

Of course... and it should be so. We're all just flapping our pieholes here   and if anyone would be seriously swayed from their beliefs by what anyone says on a message board... they need help.

But, it doesn't hurt to look at different points of views, and here's a link.  I know you hate wikipedia, but it's all succinct here, and basically reiterates what my own pastor explained to me years ago, so it's a valid thinkpoint, I think.  There's no shame in Jesus having spoken those words for something other than pacifism.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_the_other_cheek

 

[Deedee]

Deedee,
It is not that this is what I believe, but that is what the Bible says.  Being God inspired and being hand written by God is not the same difference.  The Koran for example, I'm told, was written, not inspired, by God.  

Yes, men wrote the Bible, inspired by God.  And yes, God allowed them to write what God inspired them to write in the mood the author happen to be in at that moment, using his talent(song, poem, etc.), but the message throughout the Bible is the same.  I am aware that you do not believe this, but I do have faith that what they wrote was inspired by God and that it is God's word and not the word of men.

Lol, then we agree. God allowed them to write what they did, means He condones what is within its pages. It IS the word of God.

[OzmO]

Way to ignore my posts and my questions.  And what's this about "break out your English dictionary"?  Is that supposed to be a racist insult against Hispanics?   

Boy, you are sure desperate today loco.

Of course it's not racist.  My point is English isn't your first language and you aren't reading what i wrote correctly as you keep on making what i said into something it's not.

GO back and re-read it again!

[loco]

Says you.    You are speaking in human terms about a non-human entity. That's kind of presumptuous.  

Well, isn't that what you are doing when you said that the God of the Bible is "extremely" cruel?

And if you look at figgs' early comment that since the Creator Of All is within every living thing, even the raped virgins, the slashed up pregnant women, the dashed to pieces babies and murdered sick old people... he's committing these acts against "Himself" as well... that puts a different spin on all of what's being discussed here.  Maybe cruelty is simply capriciousness, playfulness, or omniscient masochism.

The creator of all is withing every living thing?  Says who?

Of course... and it should be so. We're all just flapping our pieholes here   and if anyone would be seriously swayed from their beliefs by what anyone says on a message board... they need help.

But, it doesn't hurt to look at different points of views, and here's a link.  I know you hate wikipedia, but it's all succinct here, and basically reiterates what my own pastor explained to me years ago, so it's a valid thinkpoint, I think.  There's no shame in Jesus having spoken those words for something other than pacifism.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_the_other_cheek

I actually do like wikipedia, as long as the articles do include citation of reputable references.  Thanks for the link.  I will read it, but you will agree with me that just because wikipedia says it, and just because your own pastor said it, that doesn't make it valid. 

And again, I never said turning the other cheek was about pacifism.  I said it is about saving the soul of the person who stroke you instead of striking back.