Is God Cruel?

[loco]

OzmO and loco, I know you both respect each other.  I also think you like each other but this is of course a tender subject.

Maybe if we all take a deep breath it will help out


Or you could all tell me to p*** off 

Well, I do hope you are not angry at me OzmO!  If I insulted you in any of my posts, I apologize!

Thanks, STella, for keeping the peace!

[OzmO]

Yeah, yeah...I'm a drama queen...whatever!  Let's move on.

Ok for the sake of continuing we'll re-start here.     Even though you still haven't answered my questions....  Which is business as usual for you.

Why do you keep saying that I'm avoiding your questions right after you quoted me answering your questions to use my answers to slander anyone who believes that the OT is the word of God and put us all at the same level of radical Muslims?

I didn't say they were on the same level.  I said almost on the same level.  see below for further explanation.

God has killed children.  When did I deny that?  Where do you get that I'm denying the truth?

When did i say you said that?  I was talking to someone else.

How exactly are Jews and Christians a threat to society today simply for believing the OT is the word of God?

I answered that question already.  go back and re-read like i've been suggesting you to do!

How exactly are Jews and Christians today remotely close to radical Muslims?

Because they both seem to believe that if God tells you to do something its ok regardless of the rest of the world thinks.  You supported that belief:

And just because the rest of the world condemns an action doesn't automatically mean that the rest of the world is right.  If God tells you to smack the kid in the face and you do it, then it is okay with God because it is God who ordered you to do it.

Radical Muslims do the same thing in principle.  Now, Christians DO NOT do the same things in practice as radical muslims do like, suicide bomb markets, hijack planes, etc...  But the principle is the same:  They feel they are justified by orders from God.

[loco]

loco, here's the point I think Ozmo is making to you. I think.

Radical muslims behave no differently today than many of the characters in the OT behaved, which includes many barbaric, ostensibly God-condoned acts.  Many Christians don't see from whence we came. And that does NOT condone what radical muslims do in today's world, just points out certain similarities between our own humble beginnings and their current behavior. 

No, that is not his point obviously.  Read above.

[Butterbean]

"And just because the rest of the world condemns an action doesn't automatically mean that the rest of the world is right.  If God tells you to smack the kid in the face and you do it, then it is okay with God because it is God who ordered you to do it."

"Radical Muslims do the same thing in principle.  Now, Christians DO NOT do the same things in practice as radical muslims do like, suicide bomb markets, hijack planes, etc...  But the principle is the same:  They feel they are justified by orders from God."



I think loco is saying if God truly told you to smack the kid.  Not if someone just truly 'believes' that God told them to smack the kid.

I think general thinking is that yes, Radical Muslims may think that they are really doing their God's will by blowing up people but most of us do not believe that it is really God's will.  We believe they are mistaken.

[loco]

Ok for the sake of continuing we'll re-start here.     Even though you still haven't answered my questions....  Which is business as usual for you.

I didn't say they were on the same level.  I said almost on the same level.  see below for further explanation.

When did i say you said that?  I was talking to someone else.

I answered that question already.  go back and re-read like i've been suggesting you to do!

Because they both seem to believe that if God tells you to do something its ok regardless of the rest of the world thinks.  You supported that belief:

Radical Muslims do the same thing in principle.  Now, Christians DO NOT do the same things in practice as radical muslims do like, suicide bomb markets, hijack planes, etc...  But the principle is the same:  They feel they are justified by orders from God.

Are you suggesting that Christians and Jews some how must force ourselves to stop having faith in the OT just because of today's radical Muslims' actions?  Today's radical Muslims' actions dictate what Christians and Jews can and cannot believe?

If "Christians DO NOT do the same things in practice as radical Muslims", then where is the harm?  How are Christians a threat to today's society simply for believing the OT is the word of God?

[loco]

"And just because the rest of the world condemns an action doesn't automatically mean that the rest of the world is right.  If God tells you to smack the kid in the face and you do it, then it is okay with God because it is God who ordered you to do it."

"Radical Muslims do the same thing in principle.  Now, Christians DO NOT do the same things in practice as radical muslims do like, suicide bomb markets, hijack planes, etc...  But the principle is the same:  They feel they are justified by orders from God."



I think loco is saying if God truly told you to smack the kid.  Not if someone just truly 'believes' that God told them to smack the kid.

I think general thinking is that yes, Radical Muslims may think that they are really doing their God's will by blowing up people but most of us do not believe that it is really God's will.  We believe they are mistaken.

Correct!

[OzmO]

Are you suggesting that Christians and Jews some how must force themselves to stop having faith in the OT just because of today's radical Muslims' actions?  Today's radical Muslims' actions dictate what Christians and Jews can and cannot believe?

no not suggesting that at all  and no on the second question.

If "Christians DO NOT do the same things in practice as radical Muslims", then where is the harm?

The harm is only potentially and not the same way as with Radical muslims.

Here's what i asked you to re-read:

Because those who would believe "god" told a group of Jews to kill innocent children and and cannot see the evil in it and believe that GOD is not morally accountable are vulnerable to manipulations of others (now added:politicians and leaders) who would use religion and alleged divine inspiration/guidance to justify unwarranted and immoral violent actions.

[Deedee]

Thanks MCWAY!  I read your other post about this.  Very good!  I just don't understand where skeptics get that the virgins in this passage were raped by the Israeli soldiers.

Loco, I know that you know that in today's world, if some remote village was vanquished and young girls were divied up as spoils of war, forced to become concubines or wives of the enemy, it would be seen as tantamount to kidnapping, slavery and rape. Our western sensibilities would decry it. 

But back then times were simpler. Again, all I was saying is that what we might see in our current world as cruelty, from a human perspective, doesn't apply when speaking of God or the OT.

[loco]

no not suggesting that at all  and no on the second question.

The harm is only potentially and not the same way as with Radical muslims.

Here's what i asked you to re-read:

Because those who would believe "god" told a group of Jews to kill innocent children and and cannot see the evil in it and believe that GOD is not morally accountable are vulnerable to manipulations of others (now added:politicians and leaders) who would use religion and alleged divine inspiration/guidance to justify unwarranted and immoral violent actions.

The potential you speak of applies to many things and to many people, including people who do not believe in the Bible, or don't even believe in God for that matter.  There is just as much, if not more, potential for anybody who does not believe in "divine inspiration/guidance" to be vulnerable to manipulations by politicians and leaders.  Evidence of this is Nationalism, Social Darwinism, The Great Leap Forward, The Great Purge, just to name a few secular ideals which have claimed far more lives in modern times than any "alleged divine inspiration/guidance" justified actions by any religious group.

[MCWAY]

The potential you speak of applies to many things and to many people, including people who do not believe in the Bible, or don't even believe in God for that matter.  There is just as much, if not more, potential for anybody who does not believe in "divine inspiration/guidance" to be vulnerable to manipulations by politicians and leaders.  Evidence of this is Nationalism, Social Darwinism, The Great Leap Forward, The Great Purge, just to name a few secular ideals which have claimed far more lives in modern times than any "alleged divine inspiration/guidance" justified actions by any religious group.

I've heard the saying that Stalin killed more people in one year than the Crusaders did in a decade. Bascially, that amount to the "god" in question being the state/government. And since he ran the state/government, the "god" was, in effect, Stalin himself.

[OzmO]

I've heard the saying that Stalin killed more people in one year than the Crusaders did in a decade. Bascially, that amount to the "god" in question being the state/government. And since he ran the state/government, the "god" was, in effect, Stalin himself.

Someone told me the book of Martyrs has the Catholic church killing 50 million.  But that's just hearsay and i think Stalin was in the 20 million range.

[OzmO]

I think loco is saying if God truly told you to smack the kid.  Not if someone just truly 'believes' that God told them to smack the kid.

That's the one of the issues stella, how is anyone to know if God truly tells anyone?

I bet the percentage of people who think god has spoken to them at some point in there lives is higher than we think. 

I believe he's spoken to me on 2 occasions. 

Take the Jews who were instructed by God to kill children.  How do we know they actually were told by god? 

I don't believe they were told by God becuase killing innocent children is an evil thing to do and god is not evil. (making it more than obviously the OT is not the 100% WOG, therefore God did not commit an evil act)

But yet, nations will act on what someone, who they believe is the voice of God, says to do.

Hasn't Bush even said something to the effect  he's been guided by God or talks to him or something?

Thiis s the kind of thing that leads to righteousness.  Isn't righteous something Jesus warns us about? 

I think general thinking is that yes, Radical Muslims may think that they are really doing their God's will by blowing up people but most of us do not believe that it is really God's will.  We believe they are mistaken.

Sure we do.  Because we are at the very least a modern civilization.  But at the religious core we are not becuase many still believe the OT is the 100% WOG and see no moral inequity or accountability on God's part for killing children.  Our religious roots are planted, as DeeDee said, in a time of complete barbarism.  that gives us the potential to fall into the same "almost" the same level of righteousness that caused grown men to kill innocent children because they believe who ever ordered them to was told by God to do it.

[OzmO]

The potential you speak of applies to many things and to many people, including people who do not believe in the Bible, or don't even believe in God for that matter. 

But the potential is still there.  I believe it's better for people to believe in God in regards to doing the right thing even though people inheritly know right from wrong at some basic level.  Especially when it comes to killing children, innocent or not. 

There is just as much, if not more, potential for anybody who does not believe in "divine inspiration/guidance" to be vulnerable to manipulations by politicians and leaders.  Evidence of this is Nationalism, Social Darwinism, The Great Leap Forward, The Great Purge, just to name a few secular ideals which have claimed far more lives in modern times than any "alleged divine inspiration/guidance" justified actions by any religious group.

I agree.  That's why anything that is evil, such as killing children, should be denounced, especially scripture that allows "god" to do the dirty deed without accountability.  (making it more than obviously the OT is not the 100% WOG, therefore God did not commit an evil act)

[OzmO]

When this all came to a peak earlier i had my boss sitting right in front of me.  And i couldn't get him interested in the debate!   

I apologize and hope you are not angry at me and take heated debates on a forum for what they are.

[Deicide]

I've heard the saying that Stalin killed more people in one year than the Crusaders did in a decade. Bascially, that amount to the "god" in question being the state/government. And since he ran the state/government, the "god" was, in effect, Stalin himself.

Bad analogy MCWAY. The NAZIS, STALIN, POL POT had modern techonology at their disposal. You can bet money that the RCC (and the other sects) would have done the same had that same technology presented itself centuries ago.

[Hedgehog]

I've heard the saying that Stalin killed more people in one year than the Crusaders did in a decade. Bascially, that amount to the "god" in question being the state/government. And since he ran the state/government, the "god" was, in effect, Stalin himself.

What does Stalin has to do with people being murdered in the name of God?

Are you, in some perverted way, trying to justifying one horrible act by another evil crime?

Then perhaps Hitler was justified.

Some say he didn't kill as many as Stalin either.

Or Saddam.

Or Pol Pot.

Or who-fcuking-ever.

[Deicide]

What does Stalin has to do with people being murdered in the name of God?

Are you, in some perverted way, trying to justifying one horrible act by another evil crime?

Then perhaps Hitler was justified.

Some say he didn't kill as many as Stalin either.

Or Saddam.

Or Pol Pot.

Or who-fcuking-ever.

No. He is employing one of the three ways to claim his religion is true; there are only 3 ways.

1. Said religion is true.

2. Said religion is useful.

3. Atheism is a religion and/or dogmatic (cites Stalin/Pol POt, etc.), hence said religion is better.

Those are basically the only three ways the faithful rise to the defence of their silliness.

[loco]

Bad analogy MCWAY. The NAZIS, STALIN, POL POT had modern techonology at their disposal. You can bet money that the RCC (and the other sects) would have done the same had that same technology presented itself centuries ago.

So modern religious leaders are more civilized than modern secular leaders?   

[loco]

I believe he's spoken to me on 2 occasions. 

God has never spoken to me.

[Deicide]

So modern religious leaders are more civilized than modern secular leaders?   

Huh?! How did you jump there?

[Deicide]

God has never spoken to me.

I could have bet on that.

[loco]

But the potential is still there.  I believe it's better for people to believe in God in regards to doing the right thing even though people inheritly know right from wrong at some basic level.  Especially when it comes to killing children, innocent or not. 

I agree.  That's why anything that is evil, such as killing children, should be denounced, especially scripture that allows "god" to do the dirty deed without accountability.  (making it more than obviously the OT is not the 100% WOG, therefore God did not commit an evil act)

You agree?  Then if "the potential is still there" regardless of wheather or not a person believes the OT is the word of God, and If "Christians DO NOT do the same things in practice as radical Muslims", then where is the harm?

[loco]

Huh?! How did you jump there?

Bad analogy MCWAY. The NAZIS, STALIN, POL POT had modern techonology at their disposal. You can bet money that the RCC (and the other sects) would have done the same had that same technology presented itself centuries ago.

It's not like the RCC and other religious organizations and leaders ceased to exist before the Nazis, Stalin, etc. came into the picture.  They have been around and have had access to the same technology, yet we have seen just as much devastation in modern times, if not more, by the secular ideals I mentioned above.

[loco]

I could have bet on that.

Good! 

[Deicide]

It's not like the RCC and other religious organizations and leaders ceased to exist before the Nazis, Stalin, etc. came into the picture.  They have been around and have had access to the same technology, yet we have seen just as much devastation in modern times, if not more, by the secular ideals I mentioned above.

Come on Loco, you are smarter than this. The RCC and others DID NOT have the same level of power and authority that they once did. When one compares the 14th century Church with early 1940's Germany this becomes clear. Had they has access to modern technology at the apex of their power, there is little doubt they would have used it to devastating effect. The medieval pograms against Jews are a large indication of this. Imagine what they (Good Christians) could have done with poison gas, machine guns and mass transport....