Thinking over my second cycle

[Tapeworm]

My 1st cycle was very mild at 250mg Sustanon ew, finished off with a little var (30ed for 3 wks). I had water gain, headaches while lifting, and night sweats, but no gyno. Nothing too freaky.  I'd like to keep drier on the second cycle, so I'm considering:

Wk 1-8
Sustanon 250mg e3d
Proviron or Arimidex as an anti E, still undecided
HCG 250iu e3d, subQ rather than IM

Wk 9-12
Tprop 100mg ed, possibly dropping to 100mg eod wks 10 & 11.
Proviron or Arimidex
HCG 250iu e3d subQ

PCT
Nolva 40mg/day week 1, if I can get it.  Otherwise I'm stuck with clomid.
Nolva 20mg/day week 2-4

Note: Sustanon and Tprop are the only esters available to me, both HG by script.  Might add in var throughout, wks 1-12.


Won't be starting up for awhile, but need to decide what to run so I can get it all lined up.  Curious about turinabol and primobolan too if you've got experience.  All opinions and bashing all appreciated.

[Tapeworm]

Thanks Anton.

How would you recommend front loading with the prop at these kinds of dose levels?  Do you taper it down as the Tdeca in the Sus kicks in?

[Rimbaud]

Here's another thought:

Weeks 1-14 250 Sust E3D (or whatever)
Weeks 1-8 40mg Tbol ED
Weeks 15-18 100mg Test P (EOD or E3D)
Weeks 1-18 0.5-1.0mg adex Mon, Wed, Fri
Weeks 19-22 20mg Nolva ED or 50mg Clomid

[Tapeworm]

You like the Tbol eh?  I want to do some more reading up about it, but what I've seen so far looks good.

That looks loooong to me.  1st cycle was a mini at 8 weeks.  I'm curious to see how I feel with the hcg running throughout, but if I'm feeling good then I might let it ride for awhile.

How do you gauge your adex dose Rim?  Do you take .5 mg on MWF no matter what, and then increase it from there if you blow up?  Also, does too much kill the sex drive?

[Rimbaud]

You like the Tbol eh?  I want to do some more reading up about it, but what I've seen so far looks good.

That looks loooong to me.  1st cycle was a mini at 8 weeks.  I'm curious to see how I feel with the hcg running throughout, but if I'm feeling good then I might let it ride for awhile.

How do you gauge your adex dose Rim?   Do you take .5 mg on MWF no matter what, and then increase it from there if you blow up?  Also, does too much kill the sex drive?

Red - Tbol is the bomb. If I could only take one steroid for the rest of my life it would be tbol.

Green - I've always just started with 0.5mg & adjusted it up a little if I was gaining too much water &/or felt I was getting a littl gyno.

Blue - Yes.

Purple - I've never noticed any decrease in libido becase of adex.

[Tapeworm]

Red - Tbol is the bomb. If I could only take one steroid for the rest of my life it would be tbol.

Big endorsement.  Thanks man.  I'll see what I can do about finding some....

[candidizzle]

rim why is tbol your favorite

[Rimbaud]

rim why is tbol your favorite

It's like dbol-lite. Gives you strength, size, & very little bloat.

[candidizzle]

 like dbol+anti aromatase ? or weaker or better

[Rimbaud]

like dbol+anti aromatase ? or weaker or better

It's waeker but I've found the gains are easily kept & I've never needed an anti-e with it.

[candidizzle]

cool, gracias amigo

[Rimbaud]

I've also taken tbol alone with excellent results.

[candidizzle]

a guy named razor ripped who has his own q&a over on md said that if you want to bridge your injectables tthe best way to do it was dbol...but this tbol seems like a good one to use as well..

[Rimbaud]

a guy named razor ripped who has his own q&a over on md said that if you want to bridge your injectables tthe best way to do it was dbol...but this tbol seems like a good one to use as well..

There's no bridging - you're either on or off.

[candidizzle]

'bridge your injectables'

 


and what about bridging with gh or igf 1 or slin?

you wouldnt consider that a "true birdge"..?

or what if you bridged with Gakic+Aplodan+Nitrotech/Celltech..?!!!!

[Rimbaud]

'bridge your injectables'

 


and what about bridging with gh or igf 1 or slin?

you wouldnt consider that a "true birdge"..?

or what if you bridged with Gakic+Aplodan+Nitrotech/Celltech..?!!!!

Blue - That's a little different. It drives me crazy when guys say their off but they're still taking dbol/winny/whatever.

Red - That's just too powerful to be fucking with.

[Tapeworm]

You're a wild man Candi.  I know you know, but just go easy.  Coming off is important too.

Rim, Tbol sounds like it has a short half life.  You like to spread the dose evenly thru the day?

[Rimbaud]

You're a wild man Candi.  I know you know, but just go easy.  Coming off is important too.

Rim, Tbol sounds like it has a short half life.  You like to spread the dose evenly thru the day?

I think the half-life is 8-12 hours. I usually take it twice a day.

[candidizzle]

You're a wild man Candi.  I know you know, but just go easy.  Coming off is important too.

well i used to be wild, i think now im just crazy. 

[candidizzle]

guys..i got a question and i dont want to start a whoel nother thread for it...    

why would a natural bodbybuilder start making quicker gains when they use a product like gaspari's novadex (an anti aromatase)...sure, blokcing the conversion enzyme so you will have more testosterone, but this eliminates the estrogen at the same time..and estrogen helps build the muscle.     im confused right now.    

 "anti aromatase= more t, less e"...<== that is true whether your on gear or off gear... BUT, it seems as if it effects you differently in the two different situations...on gear, anti aromatase inhibits growth, off gear, anti aromatase supports growth??

makes no sense..

anybody?

[The ChemistV2]

guys..i got a question and i dont want to start a whoel nother thread for it...    

why would a natural bodbybuilder start making quicker gains when they use a product like gaspari's novadex (an anti aromatase)...sure, blokcing the conversion enzyme so you will have more testosterone, but this eliminates the estrogen at the same time..and estrogen helps build the muscle.     im confused right now.    

 "anti aromatase= more t, less e"...<== that is true whether your on gear or off gear... BUT, it seems as if it effects you differently in the two different situations...on gear, anti aromatase inhibits growth, off gear, anti aromatase supports growth??

makes no sense..

anybody?

First of all, for a natural bodybuilder, the anti-aromatase supplements like Gaspari's will raise testosterone to a pretty good level.. for a while. When you take a substance that lowers estrogen, it causes the pituitary to signal more testosterone. The opposite is also true. If a man takes something that raises estrogen levels, it will stop him from producing more testosterone. What happens to the natural on these substances is he will look harder, and maybe gain a little size. But it's not going to be like taking  3 to 500 mg of test a week. A steroid user may gain more weight on a cycle of easily aromatizing steroids (Test esters, d-bol) because the estrogen provides more water retention, but the water can also lead to more muscle cell hydration which in itself can be anabolic to some degree. The trade-off is you look more bloated and can have that stupid fat-faced look. When estrogen is severely reduced by taking something like arimidex in high doses, that can inhibit your gains a little. Some people like to take a highly anabolic drug like primobolin and stack it with a non-aromatizing androgen such as proviron. That way, they still have a good libido, they have no water retention, and the cycle won't suppress then nearly as much as taking a lot of test. They might not gain as much weight, but the gains will be pure muscle and easily retained at the end of the cycle. So for the natural, lowering estrogen is good..especially for an older bodybuilder. For a juicer, the estrogen question depends on your goals. If you want to gain a lot of size, but don't care if you're a bloated chipmunked -face jackass, take a boatload of test, use no estrogen blocker, and buy a bra!

[candidizzle]

what about using a small amount of a weaker anti aromatase...? like using gaspari's novadex eod ??

and is it ONLY the cellular hydration that is anabolic? and could one mimick that effect with high sodium intake and drinking alot of water/eating alot of carbs?

and i still dont understand why the natural bodybuilder could gain muscle easier with an anti-aromatase..yes, i understand that when you cut off the conversion enzyme, that more testosteron is left unconverted, so the natty now has more test...but they also have less estrogen..       and with a bodybuilder injecting testosterone, and anti aromatase will do the same thing....MORE test, less estrogen...so if more test, less estrogen= muscle gains in a natural bodybuilder, how come more test, less estrogen doesnt equal more gains in an enhanced bodybuilder?

[The ChemistV2]

what about using a small amount of a weaker anti aromatase...? like using gaspari's novadex eod ??

and is it ONLY the cellular hydration that is anabolic? and could one mimick that effect with high sodium intake and drinking alot of water/eating alot of carbs?

and i still dont understand why the natural bodybuilder could gain muscle easier with an anti-aromatase..yes, i understand that when you cut off the conversion enzyme, that more testosteron is left unconverted, so the natty now has more test...but they also have less estrogen..       and with a bodybuilder injecting testosterone, and anti aromatase will do the same thing....MORE test, less estrogen...so if more test, less estrogen= muscle gains in a natural bodybuilder, how come more test, less estrogen doesnt equal more gains in an enhanced bodybuilder?

Even though the anti-aromatase substances raise test, it's still in the physiological range, probably just in the high end of normal..but not off the charts. Plus Gaspari's Novadex and 6-oxo don't lower estrogen to the degree of arimidex, so you still have some estrogen floating around. Now when you are juicing, you have 10 times the normal amount of hormone in you floating around, so it's a totally different situation. And if the natty took something like HCG, which raises test and estrogen levels, he's still going to make more weight gain than if he took 6-oxo or Novadex, so the estrogen will also work on the Natty as well. As far as the water retention with sodium, that's going to lead to more extra-cellular water(outside the muscle)which you don't want. Stuff like creatine also cause intra-cellular water retention. When the muscle-cells are hydrated, they tend to be more anabolic. And as far as lowering estrogen causing loss of Muscle gains,I don't know if there is any scientific evidence that it does. Just anecdotal evidence of guys that call each other "Bro", saying they didn't get as big on an estrogen blocker, isn't really proof. Did they retain less water or gain less muscle? I couldn't really tell you.

[candidizzle]

thanks man thats some quality info i appreciate it


so in your opinion i can build muscle just as quickly using a product like 6oxo or novadex?

[The ChemistV2]

thanks man thats some quality info i appreciate it


so in your opinion i can build muscle just as quickly using a product like 6oxo or novadex?

Just as quickly as what? Using gear? I'm sure you know the answer to that. I haven't used anabolic drugs in over 12 years, but after all these years of hard training and using supplements that make your body increase it's own natural hormones, I look pretty close to what I did 12 years ago and I'm 45 years old. I used to compete, but I did very small doses of "safe" anabolics (Primobolin, Anavar, small  amounts of test) for short cycles. That's why I don't have any health problems, have a full head of hair, have great hormone levels and look very young for my age. I don't want to preach, but I know you're a young guy that's very enthused about juicing and getting big..but try to think a little about the future. You don't have to take a gram of test a week, 8 iu's and up of Gh a day and tons of other shit to look awesome. Be smart!