Author Topic: Charles Gibson as Moderator (NY Sun Article)  (Read 1032 times)

Colossus_500

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Charles Gibson as Moderator (NY Sun Article)
« on: April 17, 2008, 09:23:48 AM »
Charles Gibson’s Finest Hour
EDITORIAL OF THE SUN | April 17, 2008

The big television networks take a lot of abuse for their supposed left-wing slant, but for a few moments in yesterday’s presidential debate on ABC News, anchorman Charles Gibson sounded like a charter member of the Club for Growth or Americans for Tax Reform. It came when Mr. Gibson questioned Senator Obama about the capital gains tax. Mr. Gibson quoted Mr. Obama as talking about raising the tax to 28% from 15%. “But actually, Bill Clinton, in 1997, signed legislation that dropped the capital gains tax to 20 percent,” Mr. Gibson said. “And George Bush has taken it down to 15 percent. And in each instance, when the rate dropped, revenues from the tax increased; the government took in more money. And in the 1980s, when the tax was increased to 28 percent, the revenues went down. So why raise it at all, especially given the fact that 100 million people in this country own stock and would be affected?”
 
Why, Robert Bartley couldn’t have put it better himself. Mr. Obama was totally flummoxed, betraying a fundamental lack of understanding of the Laffer Curve. The Democrat of Illinois spoke of the need to “finance health care for Americans who currently don't have it,” and of the need to “invest in our infrastructure” and in “our schools.”

Mr. Gibson, to his credit, wouldn’t let the point go. “But history shows that when you drop the capital gains tax, the revenues go up,” he replied to Mr. Obama. Mr. Obama replied by changing the subject, to “a housing crisis that this president has not been attentive to.”

Mr. Gibson tried the same question, more or less, on Senator Clinton. She, at least, disavowed raising the capital gains rate above 20%, ruling out a return to the 28% rate contemplated by Mr. Obama. But when Mr. Gibson pressed her on why she would raise it at all, she went into lunkheaded, static analysis mode, displaying a lack of understanding as severe as that afflicting her rival. “You know, Charlie, I’m going to have to look and see what the revenue situation is,” he said.

We suppose there’s a remote possibility that she meant that if the government is awash in revenue, she’d consider raising the capital gains rate so as to reduce the cash flowing in from that levy. Or that, if revenue picture for the government is grim, she’d consider cutting the rate further so as to take in more revenues. But somehow we doubt that is what she was getting at.

Now, in fairness, Mr. Gibson’s question slightly oversimplifies the actual effects of a cut in the capital gains tax. The tax is somewhat unusual in that it is relatively easy to control when a capital gain is realized. If it is December 1 and the rate is dropping on December 31, the owner of a business or a block of stock or a house on which the tax is due will wait and sell it in January. If the rate is going up on December 31, the owner of the same appreciated asset will rush to complete a sale before the tax increases. Remove these timing effects of activity that probably would have happened anyway, and the revenue effects of adjustments to the capital gains tax rate are less stark.

No one is claiming that if the capital gains rate were decreased all the way to 0%, revenue would increase. There is a curve, though, on which cutting the rate will increase the revenue by growing the base of revenue on which the lower rate is imposed. ABC’s anchorman understands that and can articulate it. Neither Democratic presidential candidate gets it, or, if they do, they aren’t willing to acknowledge it. The big question of this election — one of the determining factors, we’d even venture to say — is going to be whether the Republican standard-bearer, Senator McCain, can understand the point Charles Gibson made and convince the American people he will act on it.

w8tlftr

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Re: Charles Gibson as Moderator (NY Sun Article)
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2008, 02:10:02 PM »
Interesting. An article stating that cutting a tax resulted in increased government revenue.  8)

Decker, if you've read this is there any validity to the claim made by Mr. Gibson?

And is anyone else here troubled how both candidates seem to blow the question off and tried to change the subject?

In 1930, the Republican-controlled House of Representatives, in an effort to alleviate the effects of the... Anyone? Anyone?... the Great Depression, passed the... Anyone? Anyone? The tariff bill? The Hawley-Smoot Tariff Act? Which, anyone? Raised or lowered?... raised tariffs, in an effort to collect more revenue for the federal government. Did it work? Anyone? Anyone know the effects? It did not work, and the United States sank deeper into the Great Depression. Today we have a similar debate over this. Anyone know what this is? Class? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone seen this before? The Laffer Curve. Anyone know what this says? It says that at this point on the revenue curve, you will get exactly the same amount of revenue as at this point. This is very controversial. Does anyone know what Vice President Bush called this in 1980? Anyone? Something-d-o-o economics. "Voodoo" economics. -- Economics Teacher, Ferris Bueller's Day Off


Decker

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Re: Charles Gibson as Moderator (NY Sun Article)
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2008, 02:33:00 PM »
Interesting. An article stating that cutting a tax resulted in increased government revenue.  8)

Decker, if you've read this is there any validity to the claim made by Mr. Gibson?

And is anyone else here troubled how both candidates seem to blow the question off and tried to change the subject?

In 1930, the Republican-controlled House of Representatives, in an effort to alleviate the effects of the... Anyone? Anyone?... the Great Depression, passed the... Anyone? Anyone? The tariff bill? The Hawley-Smoot Tariff Act? Which, anyone? Raised or lowered?... raised tariffs, in an effort to collect more revenue for the federal government. Did it work? Anyone? Anyone know the effects? It did not work, and the United States sank deeper into the Great Depression. Today we have a similar debate over this. Anyone know what this is? Class? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone seen this before? The Laffer Curve. Anyone know what this says? It says that at this point on the revenue curve, you will get exactly the same amount of revenue as at this point. This is very controversial. Does anyone know what Vice President Bush called this in 1980? Anyone? Something-d-o-o economics. "Voodoo" economics. -- Economics Teacher, Ferris Bueller's Day Off


No one's arguing that tax cuts don't raise tax revenue.  They just don't raise enough tax revenue to cover the cost of the tax cut itself.  Everything Mr. Gibson alludes to is a 1/2 truth or an outright lie. 

Generally Tax revenues do double every decade as a product of increased population/productivity.  Reagan raised taxes 7 times in 8 years including the largest tax increase in history after, of course, he cut taxes to an irresponsibly low level.  Then he plundered the new revenues and made up the difference with excessive borrowing.

The Laffer Curve is aptly named b/c that's what it is, a joke.  No economist worth his salt would claim that a tax cut could pay for itself.

And Ben Stein was wrong.  The Smoot-Hawley Tariff did not sink the country deeper into depression.

This is what pisses me off.  Supply-side economics is a crank school of propaganda.  It plays to the crowd that knows nothing about economics and even less about common sense.

To raise tax revenue, we have to cut tax revenue!

It doesn't get much dumber than that.  Except of course if you're Charlie Gibson.


w8tlftr

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Re: Charles Gibson as Moderator (NY Sun Article)
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2008, 02:42:09 PM »
No one's arguing that tax cuts don't raise tax revenue.  They just don't raise enough tax revenue to cover the cost of the tax cut itself.  Everything Mr. Gibson alludes to is a 1/2 truth or an outright lie. 

Generally Tax revenues do double every decade as a product of increased population/productivity.  Reagan raised taxes 7 times in 8 years including the largest tax increase in history after, of course, he cut taxes to an irresponsibly low level.  Then he plundered the new revenues and made up the difference with excessive borrowing.

The Laffer Curve is aptly named b/c that's what it is, a joke.  No economist worth his salt would claim that a tax cut could pay for itself.

And Ben Stein was wrong.  The Smoot-Hawley Tariff did not sink the country deeper into depression.

This is what pisses me off.  Supply-side economics is a crank school of propaganda.  It plays to the crowd that knows nothing about economics and even less about common sense.

To raise tax revenue, we have to cut tax revenue!

It doesn't get much dumber than that.  Except of course if you're Charlie Gibson.



I thought the school of thought was to raise tax revenue you had to cut taxes AND cut spending. More money in the hands of Americans results in more money flowing into the economy via investing and purchasing of consumer goods, homes, etc which results in business and job growth. Coupled with scaled back government spending you end up in a surplus.

So you're saying all that is an illusion, a lie, right-wing propaganda? I'm only asking because I can only approach this from the perspective of common sense and you've obviously had more formal education on the subject. It would also seem like common sense to me that the less disposable income people have the less they can afford to invest and spend.




Bindare_Dundat

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Re: Charles Gibson as Moderator (NY Sun Article)
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2008, 06:53:49 PM »

And is anyone else here troubled how both candidates seem to blow the question off and tried to change the subject?




YES!

Answer the question you wanted to be asked.

Decker

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Re: Charles Gibson as Moderator (NY Sun Article)
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2008, 08:05:32 AM »

Quote
I thought the school of thought was to raise tax revenue you had to cut taxes AND cut spending. More money in the hands of Americans results in more money flowing into the economy via investing and purchasing of consumer goods, homes, etc which results in business and job growth. Coupled with scaled back government spending you end up in a surplus.
That could be the case.  The problem is is that there is zero empirical data to support that conclusion.  It's never happened in our country's history.

Quote
So you're saying all that is an illusion, a lie, right-wing propaganda? I'm only asking because I can only approach this from the perspective of common sense and you've obviously had more formal education on the subject. It would also seem like common sense to me that the less disposable income people have the less they can afford to invest and spend.
I'm saying that politicians that promise a free lunch from tax cuts--it'll pay for itself--is an unsubstantiated claim.

Imagine this, hey everybody not only will I cut your taxes giving you more money, but those tax cuts will increase GDP and help our government pay its bills.

If it sounds too good to be true, it is.  Here's an excerpt from Nouriel Roubini, Professor of Economics and International Business, Stern School of Business, New York University:

Many "supply siders" argued that the incentive effects were so large that a reduction in tax rates would actually raise tax revenue, since the tax base would grow so much. There's no sign that this happened, and indeed most economists were pretty skeptical of this prediction at the time. Quite to the contrary, the budget deficits exploded in the 1980s after tax rates were cut by Reagan in 1981. The response of private savings and labor supply to the Reagan tax cuts was minimal: the labor supply did not increase and the effect on private savings was swamped by the reduction in public savings (the increase in the budget deficit). Since labor supply and savings increased only marginally, government revenues did not increase (relative to GDP) and the budget deficit became very large. The Laffer curve hypothesis was was flatly contradicted. Moreover, the 1980s tax cuts did not increase the rate of growth of GDP and productivity, nor the investment and savings rates.
http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~nroubini/SUPPLY.HTM

Here's link showing that the capital gains tax rate reduction did not increase tax revenue:
http://time-blog.com/curious_capitalist/2008/01/do_capital_gains_tax_cuts_incr.html

w8tlftr

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Re: Charles Gibson as Moderator (NY Sun Article)
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2008, 01:42:28 PM »
That could be the case.  The problem is is that there is zero empirical data to support that conclusion.  It's never happened in our country's history.
I'm saying that politicians that promise a free lunch from tax cuts--it'll pay for itself--is an unsubstantiated claim.

Imagine this, hey everybody not only will I cut your taxes giving you more money, but those tax cuts will increase GDP and help our government pay its bills.

If it sounds too good to be true, it is.  Here's an excerpt from Nouriel Roubini, Professor of Economics and International Business, Stern School of Business, New York University:

Many "supply siders" argued that the incentive effects were so large that a reduction in tax rates would actually raise tax revenue, since the tax base would grow so much. There's no sign that this happened, and indeed most economists were pretty skeptical of this prediction at the time. Quite to the contrary, the budget deficits exploded in the 1980s after tax rates were cut by Reagan in 1981. The response of private savings and labor supply to the Reagan tax cuts was minimal: the labor supply did not increase and the effect on private savings was swamped by the reduction in public savings (the increase in the budget deficit). Since labor supply and savings increased only marginally, government revenues did not increase (relative to GDP) and the budget deficit became very large. The Laffer curve hypothesis was was flatly contradicted. Moreover, the 1980s tax cuts did not increase the rate of growth of GDP and productivity, nor the investment and savings rates.
http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~nroubini/SUPPLY.HTM

Here's link showing that the capital gains tax rate reduction did not increase tax revenue:
http://time-blog.com/curious_capitalist/2008/01/do_capital_gains_tax_cuts_incr.html

Interesting.... and thanks for being civil about a topic I know you and I are on opposite sides on.



Now, according to this chart (from the link you provided) it peaked in 2000 and was cut in 2003. Since 2003 it shows a steady increase in tax receipts. What I'd like to know is what factors between 2000 and 2003 grossly affected tax revenue. I'm sure 911 played some part in all of this and 2002-2003 wasn't really a stellar period.

Decker

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Re: Charles Gibson as Moderator (NY Sun Article)
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2008, 01:54:04 PM »
Interesting.... and thanks for being civil about a topic I know you and I are on opposite sides on.


I had an unpleasant experience earlier with someone in a different thread so it should be me who thanks you.

We don't have a problem b/c I respect you. 

I really can't stand people that follow up a point with an insult as if they just ko'd you with their point.

On the other hand, I don't mind getting what I deserve.  Nobody likes a person made of eggshells.

w8tlftr

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Re: Charles Gibson as Moderator (NY Sun Article)
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2008, 01:56:56 PM »
I had an unpleasant experience earlier with someone in a different thread so it should be me who thanks you.

We don't have a problem b/c I respect you. 

I really can't stand people that follow up a point with an insult as if they just ko'd you with their point.

On the other hand, I don't mind getting what I deserve.  Nobody likes a person made of eggshells.

LOL... I'm sooo guilty of that but I save that sort of contempt for those here I think are all around disrespectful fools.


War-Horse

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Re: Charles Gibson as Moderator (NY Sun Article)
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2008, 08:38:41 PM »
LOL... I'm sooo guilty of that but I save that sort of contempt for those here I think are all around disrespectful fools.




 ;D