Author Topic: Is astronomy at odds with Christianity?  (Read 2635 times)

columbusdude82

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Is astronomy at odds with Christianity?
« on: April 18, 2008, 10:13:18 AM »
Why is it that some Christians, namely creationists, feel that they need to attack the science of modern of biology because they think it is at odds with the Genesis creation myth, while they give astronomy a free pass. The Bible is replete with verses that are contradicted by the claims of modern astronomy. Let's look at one of them. Here, in Matthew 24, Jesus is talking about signs of the end times:

Quote
29"Immediately after the distress of those days
   " 'the sun will be darkened,
      and the moon will not give its light;
   the stars will fall from the sky,
      and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

(BTW, this is a reference to Isaiah, but that's not the point.)

Here are points where Jesus' words and modern astronomy seem to be at odds with one another:

1. The sun will be darkened: How exactly can you switch off this massive hydrogen-based nuclear reactor without blowing out the entire solar system?

2. The moon will not give its light: Jesus apparently did not know that the moon doesn't give its light, it merely reflects the sun's.

3. The stars will fall from the sky: Jesus seems to think that the stars are close enough and small enough to be subject to the earth's gravity, so that they would fall from the sky. He doesn't know that the stars are so far off and so huge, that for us to see them moving, they would have to be moving at an incredibly fast rate compared to our planet. Moreover, we see stars as they were many millions of years ago when the light left them, not as they are now. So, for example, for a star that is 100 million light years away to be seen "falling" in the night sky, it would have had to start "falling" 100 million years ago.

4. The heavenly bodies will be shaken: If they were, then Newton's law of universal gravitation tells us that this would send the earth spiralling out of orbit and we would all be instantaneously destroyed. No one will be left to see Jesus' glorious descent on the clouds.

Now it is obvious that either:

1. We have to treat Jesus as a man of his time, a first century man, who did not know the slightest thing about astronomy, like everyone else at his time, or

2. We must judge modern astronomy to be an affront to Christianity, because it goes against the words of Christ.

Alternatively, we can just agree to let science do the work of science (from astronomy to biology to organic chemistry to particle physics) and let religion do its thing.

What do you think?

columbusdude82

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Re: Is astronomy at odds with Christianity?
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2008, 06:38:39 PM »
Well, is it or isn't it?

Butterbean

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Re: Is astronomy at odds with Christianity?
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2008, 10:31:32 AM »
Not imo.

1. The sun will be darkened: How exactly can you switch off this massive hydrogen-based nuclear reactor without blowing out the entire solar system?

To me, "darkening" doesn't necessarily mean "switching off" the sun but but more the "lessening" of light.

If we look at Matt 24:29 in relation to Rev 8:12 which says:

"The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night."

we can see that the heavenly bodies "turn dark" for a time but this imo doesn't necessarily mean they are "shut off." 

If a 3rd of the sun were "shut off," no life as we know it could be sustained on the earth (unless God miraculously allowed it)  This also makes me think read Matt 24:12 as more of a lessening of light than a switching off of the sun.

I've read that some people think that there will have been a nuclear war around this time and the pollutants in the air will cloud the light from the sun and moon etc....thus the "darkening."

Whether the darkening be from clouds or whatever, I'd think most Christians would think the God we believe in wouldn't have a problem w/lessening the light coming from the heavenly bodies.

Also, on the day Jesus was crucified the scriptures state that "from the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land....I think God had something to do w/that.




2. The moon will not give its light: Jesus apparently did not know that the moon doesn't give its light, it merely reflects the sun's.



I dont' have a problem w/the way this is worded.  I think we agree the moon does reflect light from the sun.  This reflection does emit light to the earth and although that light originates w/the sun, the light reflected by the moon comes from the moon...."moonlight."




3. The stars will fall from the sky: Jesus seems to think that the stars are close enough and small enough to be subject to the earth's gravity, so that they would fall from the sky. He doesn't know that the stars are so far off and so huge, that for us to see them moving, they would have to be moving at an incredibly fast rate compared to our planet. Moreover, we see stars as they were many millions of years ago when the light left them, not as they are now. So, for example, for a star that is 100 million light years away to be seen "falling" in the night sky, it would have had to start "falling" 100 million years ago.

It doesn't look like that scripture states that the stars will fall to earth...but "will fall from the sky."  You yourself acknowledge we see "falling" stars in the night sky.  Not sure, but are you saying those are/are not subject to the earth's gravity?


4. The heavenly bodies will be shaken: If they were, then Newton's law of universal gravitation tells us that this would send the earth spiralling out of orbit and we would all be instantaneously destroyed. No one will be left to see Jesus' glorious descent on the clouds.


"The heavenly bodies will be shaken" according to my study bible is language commonly used to describe God's judgement on a fallen world.

But even if they were literally "shaken," I think most Christians would believe that the God of the universe could keep the earth from spiralling out of orbit.







R

columbusdude82

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Re: Is astronomy at odds with Christianity?
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2008, 10:33:38 AM »
I am not arguing with your rationalizations, Stella. I am just saying, astronomy is just as much at odds with the words of Jesus as evolutionary biology is with Genesis 1.

Why do Christians feel so threatened by biology but not astronomy?

Butterbean

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Re: Is astronomy at odds with Christianity?
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2008, 10:36:25 AM »
I am not arguing with your rationalizations, Stella. I am just saying, astronomy is just as much at odds with the words of Jesus as evolutionary biology is with Genesis 1.

Why do Christians feel so threatened by biology but not astronomy?
I don't feel threatened by either so I guess I don't know.
R

columbusdude82

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Re: Is astronomy at odds with Christianity?
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2008, 10:38:09 AM »
I don't feel threatened by either so I guess I don't know.

Let's consult loco, MCWAY, onetimehard, the other dude whose name I forget who said on here that the reason he can't believe biology is because he feels God's love for him, all the creationists who think they are doing the Lord's work by spreading false information about the age of the earth and the origins of species...

columbusdude82

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Re: Is astronomy at odds with Christianity?
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2008, 05:52:07 AM »
Well, loco... why don't you have a problem with the blasphemous claim of astronomers that the moon does not emit its own light?

They have made a fool of the Lord Jesus Christ... far more so than biologists!!!

loco

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Re: Is astronomy at odds with Christianity?
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2008, 06:11:17 AM »
Well, loco... why don't you have a problem with the blasphemous claim of astronomers that the moon does not emit its own light?

They have made a fool of the Lord Jesus Christ... far more so than biologists!!!

This is why I do not have a problem.  If the Lord Jesus Christ spoke to the poor with stories about shepherds, planting seeds, etc., so that they could understand him, what makes you think that Jesus would say something like "The moon will stop reflecting the sun light"?  Then they would not have understood him.

columbusdude82

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Re: Is astronomy at odds with Christianity?
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2008, 06:18:57 AM »
This is why I do not have a problem.  If the Lord Jesus Christ spoke to the poor with stories about shepherds, planting seeds, etc., so that they could understand him, what makes you think that Jesus would say something like "The moon will stop reflecting the sun light"?  Then they would not have understood him.

They would have understood him perfectly well, if he had bothered to explain to them. But seeing as Jesus lived in a time when no one (not even the emperor) had the faintest clue of what was going on in the universe, a far more likely conclusion is that Jesus himself didn't know.

At any rate, rationalize this if you will. You obviously can rationalize your reading of scripture to fit the findings of astronomy. Why not extend the same courtesy to biology? That is the question.

Butterbean

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Re: Is astronomy at odds with Christianity?
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2008, 06:23:06 AM »
Why not extend the same courtesy to biology?
Coldude, can you be more specific?  What scriptures are you talking about that are at odds w/biology teachings?  Or are you talking about evolution?
R

loco

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Re: Is astronomy at odds with Christianity?
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2008, 06:26:10 AM »
They would have understood him perfectly well, if he had bothered to explain to them. But seeing as Jesus lived in a time when no one (not even the emperor) had the faintest clue of what was going on in the universe, a far more likely conclusion is that Jesus himself didn't know.

At any rate, rationalize this if you will. You obviously can rationalize your reading of scripture to fit the findings of astronomy. Why not extend the same courtesy to biology? That is the question.

You asked why I do not have a problem with it, and I answered.  It's okay that you don't like my answer.

Jesus did not take the time to explain astronomy to them because Jesus is not a science teacher, and the Bible is not a science book, and the people that came to see Jesus came to Jesus for hope, not for science lessons.  

columbusdude82

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Re: Is astronomy at odds with Christianity?
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2008, 06:27:09 AM »
Coldude, can you be more specific?  What scriptures are you talking about that are at odds w/biology teachings?  Or are you talking about evolution?

Yes, evolutionary biology, which has driven so many Christians into becoming raving lunatics spreading lies, formulating pseudo-scientific theories, attacking science with movies like "Expelled," and trying to sabotage the science education of American children by trying to get politicians to incorporate their lunacy into the curriculum.

If a Jesus-freak nutcase like loco (no offense, bud) can rationalize away the problems posed by the findings of astronomy to the words of Jesus, why can't he also rationalize away the same problems regarding biology and the Genesis account?

columbusdude82

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Re: Is astronomy at odds with Christianity?
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2008, 06:28:48 AM »
You asked why I do not have a problem with it, and I answered.  It's okay that you don't like my answer.

Jesus did not take the time to explain astronomy to them because Jesus is not a science teacher, and the Bible is not a science book, and the people that came to see Jesus came to Jesus for hope, not for science lessons. 

I am satisfied with your answer, regarding astronomy. Why do you not then believe that "Genesis is not a science book" and that people shouldn't read Genesis expecting to find biology lessons? ???

loco

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Re: Is astronomy at odds with Christianity?
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2008, 06:33:58 AM »
I am satisfied with your answer, regarding astronomy. Why do you not then believe that "Genesis is not a science book" and that people shouldn't read Genesis expecting to find biology lessons? ???

Genesis is not a science book.  Genesis is not a biology book.

columbusdude82

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Re: Is astronomy at odds with Christianity?
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2008, 06:37:47 AM »
Genesis is not a science book.  Genesis is not a biology book.

Tell that to your friends at "Answers in Genesis"...

loco

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Re: Is astronomy at odds with Christianity?
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2008, 03:47:19 PM »
Tell that to your friends at "Answers in Genesis"...

I don't think that you need to worry about "my friends" at Answers in Genesis. 

Answers in Genesis has consistently stated that it would be counterproductive for public schools to force science instructors to teach creation or ID. Since most science teachers are evolutionists, they would teach creation or ID poorly—and the effort to introduce counters to evolution would generally backfire.    ;D

Nordic Superman

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Re: Is astronomy at odds with Christianity?
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2008, 04:51:15 AM »
Biology provides theories that give an absolute alternative mechanism of man's creation.

This undermines Genesis.

Religious doctrine that have a Genesis like origin (islam also for example) aren't unambiguous meaning there's only room for 1) Genesis or 2) Natural selection.

Other portions of the Bible are unambiguous and can be interpreted almost anyway an adherent chooses, this includes many of the verses which contain information on celestial bodies.
الاسلام هو شيطانية

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Re: Is astronomy at odds with Christianity?
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2008, 06:13:46 AM »
I am not arguing with your rationalizations, Stella. I am just saying, astronomy is just as much at odds with the words of Jesus as evolutionary biology is with Genesis 1.

Why do Christians feel so threatened by biology but not astronomy?

The answer to that question is quite obvious, yet multifaceted simultaneously.

1. Astronomy is difficult to comprehend and requires complex mathematics for proper understanding. Most Christians don't have the intellectual tools for such, nor the inclination.

2. Evolutionary theory is relatively easy to understand (though some here could do away with that argument, non?)

3. Evolution tells us that we are just animals; nothing special and certainly not the desert despot's children as Christians are inclined to believe. We are just a bunch of apes. That offends many religious peoples' sense of privilege and pride.

There you go.
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Re: Is astronomy at odds with Christianity?
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2008, 04:31:23 PM »
I don't think that you need to worry about "my friends" at Answers in Genesis. 

Answers in Genesis has consistently stated that it would be counterproductive for public schools to force science instructors to teach creation or ID. Since most science teachers are evolutionists, they would teach creation or ID poorly—and the effort to introduce counters to evolution would generally backfire.    ;D

dude are you serious. creationism has a conclusion already established, that is, god did it. Then they look for info to substantiate that. This is not how science works.

also god is infinite, we cannot measure infinite being finite

god is eternal, another no go

immaterial, also something we cant measure see or talk about

god is unprovable so it cannot be taught. its ridiculous that they want it taught
crazy

loco

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Re: Is astronomy at odds with Christianity?
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2008, 05:13:18 PM »
dude are you serious. creationism has a conclusion already established, that is, god did it. Then they look for info to substantiate that. This is not how science works.

also god is infinite, we cannot measure infinite being finite

god is eternal, another no go

immaterial, also something we cant measure see or talk about

god is unprovable so it cannot be taught. its ridiculous that they want it taught
crazy

Hey smoke!  What part of my post did you think was crazy?  I said Genesis is not a science or biology book.  I said Answers in Genesis does not wish for anyone to force science teachers in public schools to teach creationism or ID.

Necrosis

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Re: Is astronomy at odds with Christianity?
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2008, 01:06:21 PM »
Hey smoke!  What part of my post did you think was crazy?  I said Genesis is not a science or biology book.  I said Answers in Genesis does not wish for anyone to force science teachers in public schools to teach creationism or ID.



that public schools should teach id at all, that it would be poorly taught. what is there to teach? that christians beleive in christianity and that god did it? how did he do it, the cirrculum could be summed up in one sentence.