Author Topic: Poverty is a Lifestyle Choice  (Read 2860 times)

MB_722

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Poverty is a Lifestyle Choice
« on: April 25, 2008, 12:58:22 PM »
this man loves ayn rand and objectivism. He's funny to look at, have a listen. Agree? or Disagree? I was looking for stuff on YT, came across this.

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Poor people in America CHOOSE to be poor. There are lots of opportunities for wealth, but not everyone wants to work 60 hours a week. In fact, a lot of poor people don't want to work more than 20 hours a week... Some of them don't even want jobs!!! Can you imagine?...

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Author:    George, Henry (1839-1897)
Title:    Progress and Poverty: An Inquiry into the Cause of Industrial Depressions and of Increase of Want with Increase of Wealth: The Remedy
http://www.econlib.org/library/YPDBooks/George/grgPP.html

Eyeball Chambers

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Re: Poverty is a Lifestyle Choice
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2008, 01:09:09 PM »
I haven't seen the videos yet, but I agree.  It's probably difficult to be poor in the United States.
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Decker

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Re: Poverty is a Lifestyle Choice
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2008, 01:19:28 PM »
Ayn Rand was crazy.

I think a lot of people go through an Ayn Rand faze when younger...sort of like going through a Limbaugh faze.

But that's all she is.

I can't watch the videos here at work.  Choosing to be poor?   

What a profound observation.

JBGRAY

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Re: Poverty is a Lifestyle Choice
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2008, 01:21:51 PM »
I am familiar with this philosophy, as Objectivism is something I followed in my late teens and early 20s.  In the US, it IS difficult to be poor, as even those who live in poverty by our governmental standards do actually enjoy a measure of material wealth well above what most in the world lives.  However, it can happen and is almost always caused by one of two things:  Destructive self-decisions(drugs, alcohol) that immediatley affect family members, or a major illness or injury.  However, we have more than enough goodwill to help those who truly need it here in the US......the problem is that too many people like to place themselves as a victim who is in need of those things that they really don't need.

The Master

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Re: Poverty is a Lifestyle Choice
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2008, 01:34:12 PM »
Ayn Rand was crazy.

I think a lot of people go through an Ayn Rand faze when younger...sort of like going through a Limbaugh faze.

But that's all she is.

I can't watch the videos here at work.  Choosing to be poor?   

What a profound observation.


She is exactly right in that observation.

All environmental factors aside, if a poor person really used their opportunities society gave them throughout life (education +++), and started creating their own, they'd not be poor unless they had some major unfortunate incident (paralyzed children, mental retardation and so on). Analyze any poor persons life, and you find hundreds of wasted opportunities and thousands of self destructive actions that has lead them to where they are today while at the same time: keeping them there.

It's somewhat analogous to being fat. Most fatties see themselves as victims, while gorging themselves with food, when the opportunity go get lean found around every corner.

Thus, it's a choice, because the objective world holds NO TRUE obstacles for the majority of poor and/or fat people to get out of their misery, the real obstacles is internal, and allthough the internal struggle to overcome ones own mental obstacles = often the strongest one, it still goes under the definition of choice by far.

At the same time, the ONLY way for a poor or fat person to actually GET OUT of their fatness/poverty is by making a CONSCIOUS CHOICE to utilize every opportunity they can get for as long as it takes to get where they want. Nobody is giving it to them, but the opportunities is there if they just take personal responsibility for their lives, choose to do what is needed, and never stop. Instead fat and poor people have in the majority of the cases made a conscious or unconscious choice to not do anything of what is needed, although they have all the opportunities if they applied themselves.

Ayn Rand was 100% correct.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Poverty is a Lifestyle Choice
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2008, 01:58:01 PM »
I haven't seen the videos yet, but I agree.  It's probably difficult to be poor in the United States.
It's a lot easier not to be when you're born into wealth.  sorry, I just hate rich people who had it all handed to them and act like they know what work is.  I really hate when these people act like they have problems lol...

stormshadow

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Re: Poverty is a Lifestyle Choice
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2008, 02:15:42 PM »

She is exactly right in that observation.

All environmental factors aside, if a poor person really used their opportunities society gave them throughout life (education +++), and started creating their own, they'd not be poor unless they had some major unfortunate incident (paralyzed children, mental retardation and so on). Analyze any poor persons life, and you find hundreds of wasted opportunities and thousands of self destructive actions that has lead them to where they are today while at the same time: keeping them there.

It's somewhat analogous to being fat. Most fatties see themselves as victims, while gorging themselves with food, when the opportunity go get lean found around every corner.

Thus, it's a choice, because the objective world holds NO TRUE obstacles for the majority of poor and/or fat people to get out of their misery, the real obstacles is internal, and allthough the internal struggle to overcome ones own mental obstacles = often the strongest one, it still goes under the definition of choice by far.

At the same time, the ONLY way for a poor or fat person to actually GET OUT of their fatness/poverty is by making a CONSCIOUS CHOICE to utilize every opportunity they can get for as long as it takes to get where they want. Nobody is giving it to them, but the opportunities is there if they just take personal responsibility for their lives, choose to do what is needed, and never stop. Instead fat and poor people have in the majority of the cases made a conscious or unconscious choice to not do anything of what is needed, although they have all the opportunities if they applied themselves.

Ayn Rand was 100% correct.

Very well Articulated.  You are right on the money.

Decker is off in left field again, a true Marxist.  Hey Decker, you should read "Man's search for Meaning" and get over this bullshit that people are nothing more than the product of their environment.

Decker

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Re: Poverty is a Lifestyle Choice
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2008, 02:16:00 PM »


Quote
She is exactly right in that observation.

All environmental factors aside, if a poor person really used their opportunities society gave them throughout life (education +++), and started creating their own, they'd not be poor unless they had some major unfortunate incident (paralyzed children, mental retardation and so on). Analyze any poor persons life, and you find hundreds of wasted opportunities and thousands of self destructive actions that has lead them to where they are today while at the same time: keeping them there.
Not everybody is psychologically predisposed towards that sort of success.  If it were as easy to not be poor as simply willing it, then the US would not have almost 40 million people living under the poverty line.  Opportunities are lost, wasted or just not available.

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It's somewhat analogous to being fat. Most fatties see themselves as victims, while gorging themselves with food, when the opportunity go get lean found around every corner.

Thus, it's a choice, because the objective world holds NO TRUE obstacles for the majority of poor and/or fat people to get out of their misery, the real obstacles is internal, and allthough the internal struggle to overcome ones own mental obstacles = often the strongest one, it still goes under the definition of choice by far.
Objectivism and logic are romanticized by Rand and I don't think she really understood the irrational aspects of her own ideology.  Everything is a choice in life.  If the contingencies of genetics, birthright, intelligence, psychological soundness, nepotism, education, etc. were really in the hands of the actor, then you might have something here.  Life is not so accomodating.


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At the same time, the ONLY way for a poor or fat person to actually GET OUT of their fatness/poverty is by making a CONSCIOUS CHOICE to utilize every opportunity they can get for as long as it takes to get where they want. Nobody is giving it to them, but the opportunities is there if they just take personal responsibility for their lives, choose to do what is needed, and never stop. Instead fat and poor people have in the majority of the cases made a conscious or unconscious choice to not do anything of what is needed, although they have all the opportunities if they applied themselves.

Ayn Rand was 100% correct.
Make all the conscious choices you want.  Each person is still bound by the talents of his person, the opportunities of his place, and the serendipity of his time.  Personal responsibility is a great thing.  So are childhood social factors: the wealth, education, intelligence, hell, even diet of the parents plays a role in the development and success of the child as he becomes a man.

Ayn Rand oversimplifies and romanticizes elementary concepts.  If only self-interest were as profitable as she claimed.

Decker

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Re: Poverty is a Lifestyle Choice
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2008, 02:18:27 PM »
Very well Articulated.  You are right on the money.

Decker is off in left field again, a true Marxist.  Hey Decker, you should read "Man's search for Meaning" and get over this bullshit that people are nothing more than the product of their environment.
Ayn Rand is second rate writer and third rate philosopher.

I'm not a Marxist. 
Thanks for making an argument for me.  People are a product of their environment but much more. 

Maybe you should read some Nietzsche to understand that. 

Hell, start at the beginning with Plato and Aristotle.

MB_722

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Re: Poverty is a Lifestyle Choice
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2008, 02:24:40 PM »
Hey Decker, you should read "Man's search for Meaning"

Rapidshare Link to the book: http://rapidshare.com/files/44260817/Man_27s.search.for.meaning.pdf

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Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor E. Frankl is among the most influential works of psychiatric literature since Freud. The book begins with a lengthy, austere, and deeply moving personal essay about Frankl's imprisonment in Auschwitz and other concentration camps for five years, and his struggle during this time to find reasons to live. The second part of the book, called "Logotherapy in a Nutshell," describes the psychotherapeutic method that Frankl pioneered as a result of his experiences in the concentration camps. Freud believed that sexual instincts and urges were the driving force of humanity's life; Frankl, by contrast, believes that man's deepest desire is to search for meaning and purpose. Frankl's logotherapy, therefore, is much more compatible with Western religions than Freudian psychotherapy. This is a fascinating, sophisticated, and very human book. At times, Frankl's personal and professional discourses merge into a style of tremendous power. "Our generation is realistic, for we have come to know man as he really is," Frankl writes. "After all, man is that being who invented the gas chambers of Auschwitz; however, he is also that being who entered those gas chambers upright, with the Lord's Prayer or the Shema Yisrael on his lips."

stormshadow

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Re: Poverty is a Lifestyle Choice
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2008, 02:36:44 PM »
Ayn Rand is second rate writer and third rate philosopher.

I'm not a Marxist. 
Thanks for making an argument for me.  People are a product of their environment but much more. 

Maybe you should read some Nietzsche to understand that. 

Hell, start at the beginning with Plato and Aristotle.

Dude, you are a Marxist.  That was one of Karl's primary principles and one that is easily put to rest by Viktor Frankl when he details life in the Nazi camps.  Every man was stripped and robbed of everything he had.  He saw first hand how some "chose" to fight, and many others "chose" to quit and die.

The conditions they were under with work, and starvation, staying alive was very much dependent on the will to live.

The man who has a why can deal with any how was the premise of his book.

money and success are the result of creating value for other human beings.  There are an infinite number of ways to do this besides Rand's examples of John, Hank, and Francisco.

Human beings are not only free, but most importantly they are free to something - namely, to achieve goals and puposes. The search for meaning is seen as the primary motivation of humans. When a person cannot realize his or her "Will to Meaning" in their lives they will experience an abysmal sensation of meaninglessness and emptiness. The frustration of the existential need for meaningful goals will give rise to aggression, addiction, depression and suicidality, and it may engender or increase psychosomatic maladies and neurotic disorders.

Eyeball Chambers

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Re: Poverty is a Lifestyle Choice
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2008, 03:49:51 PM »
It's a lot easier not to be when you're born into wealth.  sorry, I just hate rich people who had it all handed to them and act like they know what work is.  I really hate when these people act like they have problems lol...

Just for the record...

I'm middle class and I'm posting from work right now.


I'm going to have to build my own fortune.   :)
S

kh300

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Re: Poverty is a Lifestyle Choice
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2008, 07:01:17 PM »
its like when i was with the police department. i worked my ass off everyday. others did absolutely nothing. showed up late, got into trouble for doing stupid shit, unreliable, unprofessional, bad at doing their jobs.

then they complain why someone like me gets to sargent.

i dont care where you work. every place is full of useless people, and they are the ones claiming injustice

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Poverty is a Lifestyle Choice
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2008, 07:28:07 PM »
Just for the record...

I'm middle class and I'm posting from work right now.


I'm going to have to build my own fortune.   :)
I already knew that ;D

Camel Jockey

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Re: Poverty is a Lifestyle Choice
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2008, 08:12:14 PM »
America is all about becoming something. Of course everyone starts from a base, a lot of them poor. A lot of them do rise up and do well for themselves, but there are certain groups that choose to engage in certain behavior or choose not to work for anything, and I think it's safe to say that these people do choose to be nothing. The people that are in poverty due to certain situations should be given the benefit of the doubt. Immigrants and their kids don't choose to be poor; not most of them anyway.

Decker

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Re: Poverty is a Lifestyle Choice
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2008, 06:54:13 AM »
Dude, you are a Marxist.  That was one of Karl's primary principles and one that is easily put to rest by Viktor Frankl when he details life in the Nazi camps.  Every man was stripped and robbed of everything he had.  He saw first hand how some "chose" to fight, and many others "chose" to quit and die.

The conditions they were under with work, and starvation, staying alive was very much dependent on the will to live.

The man who has a why can deal with any how was the premise of his book.

money and success are the result of creating value for other human beings.  There are an infinite number of ways to do this besides Rand's examples of John, Hank, and Francisco.

Human beings are not only free, but most importantly they are free to something - namely, to achieve goals and puposes. The search for meaning is seen as the primary motivation of humans. When a person cannot realize his or her "Will to Meaning" in their lives they will experience an abysmal sensation of meaninglessness and emptiness. The frustration of the existential need for meaningful goals will give rise to aggression, addiction, depression and suicidality, and it may engender or increase psychosomatic maladies and neurotic disorders.

Choice is inherent in freedom.  We are always choosing something.  The freedom to do something, to project into the future, was concept at odds with idea of a freedom from things.  That's elementary existentialism.  Yes, the 'will for meaning' is A motivating factor but not the only factor.  Especially when this 'will for meaning' can devolve into license to ascribe a meaning that's not there.  Motivation is still shaped in part by environment.  I don't know how you can question that.

Have you read Hegel? 

Are you interpreting Marx as claiming that one's environment has an effect on personal development?  Then practically everyone in the solar system is a Marxist by your interpretation.

Are you stating that the 'will to meaning' is a rational drive which supercedes all other drives in people?

I would disagree with that.