Author Topic: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...  (Read 8258 times)

Deicide

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columbusdude82

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Re: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2008, 05:42:50 PM »
Ah yes, the two people most qualified to discuss science are... Ben Stein and Bill O'Reilly...

Tomorrow, I will read Pope Benedict's Manual "How to Eat Pussy"...

Deicide

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Re: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2008, 05:46:22 PM »
Ah yes, the two people most qualified to discuss science are... Ben Stein and Bill O'Reilly...

Tomorrow, I will read Pope Benedict's Manual "How to Eat Pussy"...

Sorry, that one is on the Vatican's Banned Book List.... ;D
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MCWAY

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Re: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2008, 01:38:55 PM »
Ah yes, the two people most qualified to discuss science are... Ben Stein and Bill O'Reilly...

Tomorrow, I will read Pope Benedict's Manual "How to Eat Pussy"...

And, of course, you miss the point by a country mile. The issue here is the DISCUSSION itself. The point of Stein's movie is that, in areas where there's supposed to be academic freedom, there is anything but that. Anyone in the scientific realm who doesn't dance to the Darwin beat and bow down to "Goo to you by way of the zoo" doctrine gets blackballed. Some have suggested that people have their Ph.Ds stripped from them or keep them from getting such (if it's found or suspected that they believe in Creation).

O'Reilly has a point. If all the atheistic scientists are screaming that they don't really know how life began, or that evolution doesn't deal with origin, why is there all the hostility when someone suggest that maybe, just maybe, there's a supernatural entity responsible for life here on Earth?

This just goes to show that this matter is way beyond science. It's about philosophic/religious beliefs and, ultimately, about morals.

Deicide

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Re: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2008, 09:39:12 PM »
And, of course, you miss the point by a country mile. The issue here is the DISCUSSION itself. The point of Stein's movie is that, in areas where there's supposed to be academic freedom, there is anything but that. Anyone in the scientific realm who doesn't dance to the Darwin beat and bow down to "Goo to you by way of the zoo" doctrine gets blackballed. Some have suggested that people have their Ph.Ds stripped from them or keep them from getting such (if it's found or suspected that they believe in Creation).

O'Reilly has a point. If all the atheistic scientists are screaming that they don't really know how life began, or that evolution doesn't deal with origin, why is there all the hostility when someone suggest that maybe, just maybe, there's a supernatural entity responsible for life here on Earth?

This just goes to show that this matter is way beyond science. It's about philosophic/religious beliefs and, ultimately, about morals.

Because my bible thumping friend, ID is not a testable hypothesis. It is creationism.

"Maybe something supernatural created the universe" doesn't get published in scientific journals because it is a religious statement.
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Dreadlord

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Re: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2008, 10:18:31 AM »


Proving that god exists is the same as proving that elves and wizards exist. The absence of details NOW doesnt mean that they do exist. Back then people believed tornados and other natural forces were gods punishment until they could be explained. Until the DNA code was cracked, creating another life was accomplishable only by god.

Science is missing certain details but that does not mean it will remain unclear in the future. As science advances more questions will be answered. All the jigsaw puzzles will hae more pieces falling into place.  Christians and other religions will end up with fewer places to be obscure and play their smoke and mirrors games.

Good riddance to bad rubbish. 

MCWAY

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Re: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2008, 08:28:34 AM »

Proving that god exists is the same as proving that elves and wizards exist. The absence of details NOW doesnt mean that they do exist. Back then people believed tornados and other natural forces were gods punishment until they could be explained. Until the DNA code was cracked, creating another life was accomplishable only by god.

In order for a code to be "cracked", that code has to be....DEVELOPED. And, for that to happen, someone had to develop it, period. Explaining the mechanics does not take into account HOW those mechanics got there and why those mechanics are ordered in such fashion. In spite of your claim (as is often misstated by way too many non-believers), Christians do not suggest that the existence of God is based on an absence of details.

Even with the DNA code cracked, man STILL cannot create life. He cannot produce the raw materials, nor can he give those materials what it takes to make a living being. All man can do is manipulate God's ALREADY-EXISTING materials, using God's ALREADY-EXISTING laws of nature.


Science is missing certain details but that does not mean it will remain unclear in the future. As science advances more questions will be answered. All the jigsaw puzzles will hae more pieces falling into place.  Christians and other religions will end up with fewer places to be obscure and play their smoke and mirrors games.

Good riddance to bad rubbish. 

Again, your analogy betrays your point. A jigsaw puzzle is comprised of pieces DELIBERATELY cut and segregated by someone, in order for someone else to ponder and piece together. Puzzles don't make themselves; nor do they solve themselves.

Plus, no matter how many questions that "science" supposedly answers, eventually, it all comes back to one simple basic question, which plagues skeptics and atheists to this day: HOW DID LIFE BEGIN?


Decker

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Re: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2008, 01:56:51 PM »
And, of course, you miss the point by a country mile. The issue here is the DISCUSSION itself. The point of Stein's movie is that, in areas where there's supposed to be academic freedom, there is anything but that. Anyone in the scientific realm who doesn't dance to the Darwin beat and bow down to "Goo to you by way of the zoo" doctrine gets blackballed. Some have suggested that people have their Ph.Ds stripped from them or keep them from getting such (if it's found or suspected that they believe in Creation).

O'Reilly has a point. If all the atheistic scientists are screaming that they don't really know how life began, or that evolution doesn't deal with origin, why is there all the hostility when someone suggest that maybe, just maybe, there's a supernatural entity responsible for life here on Earth?

This just goes to show that this matter is way beyond science. It's about philosophic/religious beliefs and, ultimately, about morals.
Proselytizing religious causes of the Universe is storytelling.  There's no pretension to science...no scientific method, no math models or such.

That's why ID is not bandied about in University discussions about origins.

God created everything....that's a statement that kills debate instead of provoking it.

Is God YAHWEH?  ODin?  Vishnu?

When we get into that arena, all pretension to method, reason or logic is jettisoned and we are left with storytelling.

Dos Equis

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Re: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2008, 07:10:36 PM »

When we get into that arena, all pretension to method, reason or logic is jettisoned and we are left with storytelling.

Sounds like the origins of life on earth (the very beginning) based on the theory of evolution.  It's a story. 

loco

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Re: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2008, 08:33:24 PM »


Richard Dawkins thought Intelligent Design might be a legitimate pursuit?

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Re: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2008, 09:17:44 PM »
How Did Life Start? The HONEST God-Free Explanation.


loco

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Re: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2008, 09:30:40 PM »
Michael Ruse Popular Theory


Decker

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Re: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2008, 06:57:58 AM »
Sounds like the origins of life on earth (the very beginning) based on the theory of evolution.  It's a story. 
Really?

So you tell your kids at their bedtime about the tale of naturalistic science unraveling the mysteries of DNA/RNA?

But seriously, you are operating under a common misconception about evolution.  Evolution is concerned mainly with life AFTER origins.

Physicists like Stephen Hawking have written about origins.  Physicists use math models and rational assumptions to address the issue of origins.

Does your story of creation involve those things or do you discuss Genesis as if it is just a factual exposition of God's magic?

Dos Equis

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Re: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2008, 11:17:25 AM »
Really?

So you tell your kids at their bedtime about the tale of naturalistic science unraveling the mysteries of DNA/RNA?

But seriously, you are operating under a common misconception about evolution.  Evolution is concerned mainly with life AFTER origins.

Physicists like Stephen Hawking have written about origins.  Physicists use math models and rational assumptions to address the issue of origins.

Does your story of creation involve those things or do you discuss Genesis as if it is just a factual exposition of God's magic?

I don't tell my kids bedtime stories about DNA.  I read much more interesting stories.  We're on Robin Crusoe right now. 

There is no science that proves the origins of life.  Look at the first clip posted by loco a few posts up.  Dawkins said an intelligent designer could have created the first cell.  Go figure.   :)

You talk about math models and "rational assumptions," but what you can't do is provide scientific proof of how it all started.  At the end of the day, it's a story.   

wavelength

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Re: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2008, 11:38:29 AM »
As always, unfortunally, the point is missed. Of course in case of these two individuals, not exactly astonishing.

bears

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Re: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2008, 12:33:31 PM »
Ah yes, the two people most qualified to discuss science are... Ben Stein and Bill O'Reilly...

Tomorrow, I will read Pope Benedict's Manual "How to Eat Pussy"...


i dont see how ben stein was acting like an idiot at all.  he was simply stating that there are differing opinions on the origin of the universe.  its funny how people are posting on this thread attacking one another like they know the answer to the origin of the damn universe.  the above statement i will say is really fuckin funny though.  i literally spit my coffee on my desk.

Decker

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Re: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2008, 01:17:54 PM »
I don't tell my kids bedtime stories about DNA.  I read much more interesting stories.  We're on Robin Crusoe right now. 

There is no science that proves the origins of life.  Look at the first clip posted by loco a few posts up.  Dawkins said an intelligent designer could have created the first cell.  Go figure.   :)

You talk about math models and "rational assumptions," but what you can't do is provide scientific proof of how it all started.  At the end of the day, it's a story.   

No it is not just a story.  It's an educated guess based on science and reasonable assumptions.  The Bible is not so constrained.

The attempt to explain the unexplainable is done in the language of science.

The Bible tells a story!

bears

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Re: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2008, 01:35:18 PM »
No it is not just a story.  It's an educated guess based on science and reasonable assumptions.  The Bible is not so constrained.

The attempt to explain the unexplainable is done in the language of science.

The Bible tells a story!

yes it is just a story.  enough people who appear intelligent say something on tv in this country it becomes fact.  anyone can make an educated guess about anything.  just because there are facts that support a piece of a hypothesis does not give it any more credence than any other unproven hypothesis.  im sure that hundreds of years ago men had enough scientific and reasonable assumptions to say that the world was flat.  they were called scientists.  they were wrong.  the fact is there a huge holes in both beliefs.  right now they are BOTH JUST STORIES until one of them is proven.  no one knows.  and until we do know we should stop judging eachother and start listening to eachother.   to criticize someone because you think that their view of the origins of the universe is wrong is the pinnacle of arrogance and stupidity.

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Re: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2008, 03:36:45 PM »
Science doesn't propose to answer the question regarding the origin of life.  The theory of evolution explains how life diversified once it got here.  Creationists don't like the theory of evolution because it doesn't mesh very well with the origins of life as described in Genesis.  They would like every science class discussion to propose an alternate hypothesis that "the aliens, or God, or some other intelligent being made it so."  This doesn't sit well with scientists for obvious reasons.  It doesn't have anything to do with which "story" is correct.

Deedee

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Re: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2008, 03:38:10 PM »
In the interest of thread balance...

Why Ben Stein is an idiot.  :)


Dos Equis

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Re: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2008, 11:33:08 PM »
No it is not just a story.  It's an educated guess based on science and reasonable assumptions.  The Bible is not so constrained.

The attempt to explain the unexplainable is done in the language of science.

The Bible tells a story!

It's not based on science.  Science includes:  (1) observation; (2) hypothesis formulation; (3) prediction; and (4) testing of predictions.  That is completely nonexistent when it comes to the origin of life on earth.   

loco

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Re: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2008, 03:13:17 AM »
No it is not just a story.  It's an educated guess.

I did not know that Science was about "educated gueses".

It's not based on science.  Science includes:  (1) observation; (2) hypothesis formulation; (3) prediction; and (4) testing of predictions.  That is completely nonexistent when it comes to the origin of life on earth.   

That's what I thought.


Decker

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Re: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2008, 07:00:34 AM »
yes it is just a story.  enough people who appear intelligent say something on tv in this country it becomes fact.  anyone can make an educated guess about anything.  just because there are facts that support a piece of a hypothesis does not give it any more credence than any other unproven hypothesis.  im sure that hundreds of years ago men had enough scientific and reasonable assumptions to say that the world was flat.  they were called scientists.  they were wrong.  the fact is there a huge holes in both beliefs.  right now they are BOTH JUST STORIES until one of them is proven.  no one knows.  and until we do know we should stop judging eachother and start listening to eachother.   to criticize someone because you think that their view of the origins of the universe is wrong is the pinnacle of arrogance and stupidity.
Maybe I'm not explaining myself well.  Since the creation of the Universe or life is not an observable phenomenon (at least not yet), it can never be true science.

Couching the analysis of physicists in scientific methodology is the next best thing.  Scientists develop math theories showing that something could have come from nothing (Hawking).  They are using every scientific technique amenable to the analysis, except for direct observation, to address the problem.

So that analysis is definitely different than the folk tales contained in the Bible.

For you to say that the folktales in genesis are on the same footing as theoretical papers by today's finest scientific minds is the height of arrogance and prejudice. 

Most people back in the day knew the earth was not flat---that included most sailors b/c they saw the curve of the horizon.

It was the addle minded church that kept the flat earth theory alive and kicking.

Decker

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Re: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2008, 07:11:33 AM »
It's not based on science.  Science includes:  (1) observation; (2) hypothesis formulation; (3) prediction; and (4) testing of predictions.  That is completely nonexistent when it comes to the origin of life on earth.   
Evolution does not pretend to explain the origins of life like the Bible does.

I'll repeat that, evolution does not pretend to explain the origins of life like the Bible and ID do.

Theoretical astrophsyicists do attempt to tackle the problem origins from the time tested vantage point of mathematical analysis.  String theory suffers b/c the matter at hand cannot be studied by observation.  Only mathematical stabs can be made.

If you equate that sort of sophisticated anaylsis with the stale primitive storytelling of the Bible, then you deserve the fruits of an Intelligent Design education.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

How does one conceptualize that with math?

The ID people don't know.  But astrophysicists are taking a stab at it.


Decker

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Re: Watch what a dumbass Ben Stein really is: on the O'Reilly Factor...
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2008, 07:16:23 AM »
I did not know that Science was about "educated gueses".

...


Yes it is.  Reasonable assumptions in a viable hypothesis can be characterized as an "educated guess."  Science is a method and not an end.  When observable phenomenon breaks down, educated assumptions are used instead.

Otherwise were left with explanations like this:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

And for all its scientific worth, we might as well blame thunder on gnomes bowling in the mountains. 

...Absolutely zero pretensions to science or reason.