Author Topic: Oscar has a ear infection  (Read 6112 times)

Lord Humungous

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Oscar has a ear infection
« on: April 28, 2008, 05:11:03 AM »
It started friday, he was shakin his head a bunch and I was gettin a wiff of something nasty when he would sit near me. I got out some cotton balls and some rubbing alcohol and went to work pulling some of the most foul smelling brown gew from is left ear. Ive been cleaning it every few  hours but its staying the same. Anyone have a suggestion- do they make over the counter drops or should I just bite the $75 bullet and take him to the vet :-\
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Butterbean

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Re: Oscar has a ear infection
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2008, 06:29:51 AM »


Email Flower and/or PM Vet.

Take pics and post 'em up on here.

Take him to your vet.



$75 to have him looked at?  That seems high?
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Lord Humungous

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Re: Oscar has a ear infection
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2008, 06:47:05 AM »
Nobody wants to see his icky ear gunk!- my vet is rediculous a visit is either $45-$50 and im sure they will tell me $20 for some ear drops and I need to get his other meds filled before we leave for vacation. Hell im sure it will be $100.
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Butterbean

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Re: Oscar has a ear infection
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2008, 06:51:54 AM »
He is worth it!!!


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Lord Humungous

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Re: Oscar has a ear infection
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2008, 07:27:59 AM »
He is worth it!!!




and thats why we are going to the vet tomarrow :)

Wow that one F'ed up looking Santa- damn drunkard!
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knny187

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Re: Oscar has a ear infection
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2008, 07:31:08 AM »
$75 isn't outrageous...but can be considered high.

I took my cat in a few years ago to an ER Vet...& that was $75.

Sounds like he has an ear infection

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Re: Oscar has a ear infection
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2008, 07:42:40 AM »
Ear infections and how they are managed in some vet hospitals are one of my pet peeves in private practices.  One of my mentors and close friends is a Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Dermatology and a Diplomate of the American Board of Veterinary Practitioners (Canine and Feline Practice).  She drilled the correct way to treat ear infections that signficantly reduced the incidence of reoccurance and overall costs of dealing with the infection.  

Make sure your veterinarian does a cytology on the ear and doesn't just "Shotgun" it with an antifungal, antibacterial, steroid combination drug.  Now that said, make sure the veterinarian you see knows how to and can read an ear cytology.  If they don't have a clue what they are looking at, they are wasting your money.  

Dogs get one of 3 types of infection in their ears--a fungal infection (typically malazzezia), a bacterial infection (typically cocci or pseudomonas), or a combination infection.  Its best to determine the type of infection present and treat with appropriate medication.  Too often, dogs are just given something containing a large dose of corticosteroids (betamethasone or prednisone) and the infections are not appropriately treated.  There is a time and place for corticosteroids, ie if the dog is extremely uncomfortable, because they will make the dog feel better.  At the same time, there have been case of iatrogenic hyperadrenocorticism documented from topical steroid containing medications used in dogs.  


Also remember that dogs essentially have a slightly L-shaped ear canal.  This means that treatment has to get medication into that area so it may not just be ear drops, but also systemic medications.  Finally, remember to treat for at least 3-5 days after resolution of all clinical signs.  Bacteria and fungi cna live in the L portion of the ear canal where its hard for medications to get reach.  The outer ear surface can appear fully healed before things are better deeper in the ear.  Treating for those extra days ensures that you dont' have a reoccurance of the infection.  



And just a word on costs.  When I was in private practice this is what a typical ear workup cost:

Office visit (includes full physical exam): $55
Diff Quick of the ear exudate:  $25  +/- gram stain ($30) depending on bacterial type and numbers
+/- Culture of the ear exudate (if it was a reoccuring infection): $80
Topical medications: $25-35
+/-Systemic Antibiotics: $~40 (depending on dogs size and history of drugs used)
and pain medications as indicated ~15.00



My incidence of roccurance of ear infections if I could get owners to follow the protocols recommended by my friend was about 1/4 of my colleagues at that practice.  It works, but unfortunately it isn't exactly cheap.  

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Re: Oscar has a ear infection
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2008, 07:43:49 AM »
As you can tell from my post, I'm not a big fan of Otomax as a drug.    Or I hope you can tell that.  ;D

knny187

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Re: Oscar has a ear infection
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2008, 10:02:43 AM »

And just a word on costs.  When I was in private practice this is what a typical ear workup cost:

Office visit (includes full physical exam): $55
Diff Quick of the ear exudate:  $25  +/- gram stain ($30) depending on bacterial type and numbers
+/- Culture of the ear exudate (if it was a reoccuring infection): $80
Topical medications: $25-35
+/-Systemic Antibiotics: $~40 (depending on dogs size and history of drugs used)
and pain medications as indicated ~15.00



To make sense of this......

it's $55 for the office visit & then depending on what's required....add any of the other amounts.

Right?

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Re: Oscar has a ear infection
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2008, 10:10:07 AM »
To make sense of this......

it's $55 for the office visit & then depending on what's required....add any of the other amounts.

Right?

Yes.  I think the office visit may be a bit higher now, but that includes a full physical exam and alot of times I'd just do nail trims or stuff like that at no charge if I knew the owners and I thought they were good clients.  I would rarely--and I mean very rarely, prescribe medications without doing an ear cytology though.  So the typical ear infection ran $55 + 25 + 30  if it wasn't severe and it wasn't reoccuring.  The costs went up from there. 

Lord Humungous

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Re: Oscar has a ear infection
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2008, 05:17:10 AM »
Its yeast and it stinks!  >:(


This fuckin vet was so rude she almost got a donkey punch to the throat! >:( $185 for the visit, cyto, 3 meds and some ear wash >:(
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~flower~

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Re: Oscar has a ear infection
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2008, 07:25:05 AM »

treating yeast naturally, you need to go to the source of the yeast, meds just treat the symptoms it usually comes back, sometimes worse


 http://www.aunaturelk9s.com/treatingyeast.html

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Re: Oscar has a ear infection
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2008, 04:47:53 PM »
Its yeast and it stinks!  >:(


This fuckin vet was so rude she almost got a donkey punch to the throat! >:( $185 for the visit, cyto, 3 meds and some ear wash >:(

3 meds?  What 3?

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Re: Oscar has a ear infection
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2008, 04:53:13 PM »
treating yeast naturally, you need to go to the source of the yeast, meds just treat the symptoms it usually comes back, sometimes worse


 http://www.aunaturelk9s.com/treatingyeast.html

Where do you find this stuff?  ;D

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Re: Oscar has a ear infection
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2008, 06:19:18 PM »
Where do you find this stuff?  ;D

  Where do you think most medicines derived from, nature.  Personally I have used the Blue Power Ear Treatment on Emmett years ago with phenomenal results. I didn't even follow the course of use that people usually recommend and it worked great without suppressing and since then I have only used basic ear cleaners or even just witch hazel.

    Treating the cause and not just the symptoms with chronic yeast problems is the key.  A change in the diet is sometimes all that it may take.  Boosting the immune system so the body deals with yeast the way it is supposed to is another part of it. 

  While I would recommend some of the things listed on that page way down the list a lot of them are just common sense. 

  But you can stick with life long medications if you want, why should you look to a better way when you can just prescribe something, and when that med causes problems in some area from long term use, prescribe something for that.

  Advise the crap food that promotes yeast, and prescribe meds.  Where do vets come up with this? 
;D

Lord Humungous

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Re: Oscar has a ear infection
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2008, 07:59:27 PM »
3 meds?  What 3?

a refill on his Hydroxyzine, some ear wash, prednisone, and otomax. and they want him back in 2 weeks to cyto that ear again but Im thinking nooooooooooooooooooooooo ooo bunch of duchebags
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Re: Oscar has a ear infection
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2008, 09:34:58 PM »

  Where do you think most medicines derived from, nature.  Personally I have used the Blue Power Ear Treatment on Emmett years ago with phenomenal results. I didn't even follow the course of use that people usually recommend and it worked great without suppressing and since then I have only used basic ear cleaners or even just witch hazel.

    Treating the cause and not just the symptoms with chronic yeast problems is the key.  A change in the diet is sometimes all that it may take.  Boosting the immune system so the body deals with yeast the way it is supposed to is another part of it. 

  While I would recommend some of the things listed on that page way down the list a lot of them are just common sense. 

  But you can stick with life long medications if you want, why should you look to a better way when you can just prescribe something, and when that med causes problems in some area from long term use, prescribe something for that.

  Advise the crap food that promotes yeast, and prescribe meds.  Where do vets come up with this? 
;D


I'm sorry flower, I wasn't trying to be negative (man, it seems as if I'm apologizing to you quite a bit for some reason).   The thing is read through that website real closely.  To me it ran in circles and didn't really say much other than dog food is evil and vaccines are evil and you shouldn't trust drugs, but should use these "naturally derived" refined substances, which in your own words are exactly what drugs are.  Do you see the circular logic in that?  I also want to know where I said life long drug therapy was appropriate, because nowhere have I ever said that.  Thats your bias against anything even remotely not labeled "homeopathic" or "natural" and hatred of evidence based, logically thought out treatment plans speaking, not something I've said.  It's, in my opinion, a very close minded approach to what I'm trying to say in this thread. 

I agree with you in that the key with yeast infections is finding the cause, because many times the cause of recurrent yeast infections is an underlying allergy or other issue.  I've also seen recurrent yeast infections in hunting dogs that when we got them out of the water, their ears cleared up.  The same with dogs where the owners insisted on putting caustic materials or using water to clean their dogs ears.   I had one cocker spaniel patient when I was in private practice where the owners insisted on bathing the dog three times per week.  They'd get the dogs ears soaking wet and wash them out with a dilute dish soap solution, then not rinse them, and not dry them appropriately.  We fixed the ear infections when I realized the bathing practices and I got the owners to go to baths once every 2 weeks with out flushing the ears with dilute dish soap.  Amazingly the dog quit smelling bad too. 

I also thought i was pretty clear in that I think alot of veterinarians screw up how they treat ear infections.  There is a systematic approach for ear infections that will work for all of them, however there isn't a single one treatment because of the differences in causes of the infection----this doesn't matter if you are prescribing antibiotics/antifungals/or some tree oil homeopathic stuff. 

You need to follow these steps in my mind:
1) visually examine the ear for signs of exudate, ear canal redness, character of the ear drum, and to try to scale the degree of pain and discomfort of the dog.
2) determine type of infection: yeast, bacteria, mixed yeast and bacteria  via cytology.   This is always a wrights/dif quick stain, may or may not be a gram stain.
3) Base a culture on severity of infection---if its severe or reoccuring perform a culture to determine antibiotic resistance.  That said cultures aren't always mandatory at first presentation of an ear infection depending on severity of infection history and health status of animal
4) prescribe appropriate antimicrobials: antifungals for yeast, antibiotics for bacterial, both for mixed infection
5) avoid topical steroids unless the dog is extremely painful or there is severe inflammation, then if there is use corticosteroids appropriately--taper dose of oral or appropriate topical drugs.
6) REEVALUATE:  this means stress to the owner to administer all medications as directed and recheck the ear once the meds are completed.  If there is still a problem based on cytology, culture may be indicated.  Again, this is based on severity of cytology, differences in gram stain, and response to treatment.  Its not the same for every dog or even every infection in the same dog.
7) If infection reoccurs within 3-6 months, or it persists after appearing to clear up, then you have to look for underlying causes including what the owners do with the dog---hunting, bathing, allergies, dietary reactions, etc.  I honestly think you'll end up chasing zebras if you jump on this outside of a thorough history with the first presentation of an ear infection.  Dogs get ear infections without an underlying cause, just like humans.  A single isolated infection doesnt' mean their immune system is shit becuase they were vaccinated 7 years ago or that they are allergic to every food they eat.  At the same time, there may be an underlying problem causing that infection, especially if its a reoccurant yeast infection.  That cannot be ignored. 


One of the key things with yeast and bacerterial growth in the ear is changes in pH that occur within the ear canal because this can actually provide a better growing environment for both yeast and bacteria . This is what makes substances like Triz-EDTA very effective both for treatment and prevention of ear infections.  I'm not a big fan of some of the homeopathic tree oils because I've seen some really bad reactions to some of them.  Everything you put into a dogs ear has the potential to change the pH of that ear canal.  This can be a good thing, or it can be a very, very bad thing if you cause irritation within the ear.  What this means is you can take a relatively minor infection and make it very bad relatively easily by randomly puttingn some of the things you can find out on the internet labeled as "homeopathic" or even "ear cleaner'.  A couple of examples:  One was a dog when I was an intern who looked like it had hot pokers put into its ears.  The owner was applying lemon oil and tea tree oil because she thought that the dog had an ear infection.  Nothing was seen on cytology other than normal bacterial flora---mild numbers of diphthroids.  When we convinced her that her dog didn't need antibiotics and finally got her to quit putting that crap in her dogs ears, the ears cleared up. 

I also saw a dog indirectly when I was in Ohio where the owner made it severely vestibular when she tried to "candle" the poor dogs ears.   She thought it worked for humans, it had to work for the dog.  Basically she managed to rupture the dogs eardrum and poured hot wax into its middle ear.  I wish I had more followup on that case, but I was just an observer when it came in for the initial emergency. 

I also wish I had a dollar for every ear infection I saw when I was in private practice where the owners totally made things much, much worse by trying to clean their dogs ears with hydrogen peroxide.  What is sad is I've heard veterinarians recommend this treatment as a cleanser.  Stop and think for a second, what does H2O2 do when it is exposed to biological media?  It breaks down to H2O and gives of O2 gas.  So basically by cleaning a dogs ear with hydrogen peroxide, you are creating an oxygen rich water filled environment in the dogs ear in which the surface skin is very irritated as a result of the action of the hydrogen peroxide.  Mallazzezia loves that kind of environment.  Its a recipe for a severe yeast infection or worse yet a severe mixed yeast and bacterial infection. 

Do you get what I'm trying to say?   I'm not a fan of randomly putting things in dogs ears because I think it leads to more problems.  It doesnt matter if its some homeopathic remedy, some junk you get from the gypsie down the street, or veterinary approved and licensed antimicrobials.   The type of infection present needs to be deterimined and then treated appropriately based on that evaluation.   Treatment needs to be of sufficient duration and followup MUST occur for you to prevent reoccurant infections. 

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Re: Oscar has a ear infection
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2008, 09:58:07 PM »
a refill on his Hydroxyzine, some ear wash, prednisone, and otomax. and they want him back in 2 weeks to cyto that ear again but Im thinking nooooooooooooooooooooooo ooo bunch of duchebags
Whys he on hydroxazine. 


Pred and Otomax at the same time?  ::shudders::   This is just my opinion, but i would have treated those ears differently if its just a yeast infection----please don't take this as gospel becuase I haven't seen your dog as a patient, I'm just telling you what I would do generally for that type of ear infection. 


I'll be the first to admit I'm biased, but I really don't like otomax.  Its a "shotgun" drug.  It will work for some infections, but the corticosteroid in it has the potential to cause problems.  Not only that but Gentamicin as an antibiotic is actually ototoxic.  There have been reports of humans and dogs with hearing loss after recieving gentamicin.  Supposedly gentacin isn't absorbed across normal, intact skin, but it makes me nervous to put it right there in an infected ear, so close to the nerves involved with hearing where there is a good chance that the skin may very well be compromised. Not only that, but gentamicin is virtually ineffective against gram positive bacteria---its a great drug for gram negative aerobic bacilli (rods like e-coli) infections, although resistance is becoming more common.   Many ear infections are gram positive cocci bacterial infections, so gentacin may do nothing.  Betamethasone at the concentration in this drug is sufficient to cause localized immunosuppression and that high doses has been implicated for causing systemic hyperadrenocorticism. 

I know veterinarians who swear by otomax.  I'm not one of those.  And again, I'll freely admit i'm biased, but I don't like otomax as an ear drug. 





I'd strongly recommend you get those ears rechecked.  If not by this veterinarian, by a different one. 

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Re: Oscar has a ear infection
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2008, 05:56:10 AM »

I'm sorry flower, I wasn't trying to be negative (man, it seems as if I'm apologizing to you quite a bit for some reason).   The thing is read through that website real closely.  To me it ran in circles and didn't really say much other than dog food is evil and vaccines are evil and you shouldn't trust drugs, but should use these "naturally derived" refined substances, which in your own words are exactly what drugs are.  Do you see the circular logic in that?  I also want to know where I said life long drug therapy was appropriate, because nowhere have I ever said that.  Thats your bias against anything even remotely not labeled "homeopathic" or "natural" and hatred of evidence based, logically thought out treatment plans speaking, not something I've said.  It's, in my opinion, a very close minded approach to what I'm trying to say in this thread. 

I agree with you in that the key with yeast infections is finding the cause, because many times the cause of recurrent yeast infections is an underlying allergy or other issue.  I've also seen recurrent yeast infections in hunting dogs that when we got them out of the water, their ears cleared up.  The same with dogs where the owners insisted on putting caustic materials or using water to clean their dogs ears.   I had one cocker spaniel patient when I was in private practice where the owners insisted on bathing the dog three times per week.  They'd get the dogs ears soaking wet and wash them out with a dilute dish soap solution, then not rinse them, and not dry them appropriately.  We fixed the ear infections when I realized the bathing practices and I got the owners to go to baths once every 2 weeks with out flushing the ears with dilute dish soap.  Amazingly the dog quit smelling bad too. 

I also thought i was pretty clear in that I think alot of veterinarians screw up how they treat ear infections.  There is a systematic approach for ear infections that will work for all of them, however there isn't a single one treatment because of the differences in causes of the infection----this doesn't matter if you are prescribing antibiotics/antifungals/or some tree oil homeopathic stuff. 

You need to follow these steps in my mind:
1) visually examine the ear for signs of exudate, ear canal redness, character of the ear drum, and to try to scale the degree of pain and discomfort of the dog.
2) determine type of infection: yeast, bacteria, mixed yeast and bacteria  via cytology.   This is always a wrights/dif quick stain, may or may not be a gram stain.
3) Base a culture on severity of infection---if its severe or reoccuring perform a culture to determine antibiotic resistance.  That said cultures aren't always mandatory at first presentation of an ear infection depending on severity of infection history and health status of animal
4) prescribe appropriate antimicrobials: antifungals for yeast, antibiotics for bacterial, both for mixed infection
5) avoid topical steroids unless the dog is extremely painful or there is severe inflammation, then if there is use corticosteroids appropriately--taper dose of oral or appropriate topical drugs.
6) REEVALUATE:  this means stress to the owner to administer all medications as directed and recheck the ear once the meds are completed.  If there is still a problem based on cytology, culture may be indicated.  Again, this is based on severity of cytology, differences in gram stain, and response to treatment.  Its not the same for every dog or even every infection in the same dog.
7) If infection reoccurs within 3-6 months, or it persists after appearing to clear up, then you have to look for underlying causes including what the owners do with the dog---hunting, bathing, allergies, dietary reactions, etc.  I honestly think you'll end up chasing zebras if you jump on this outside of a thorough history with the first presentation of an ear infection.  Dogs get ear infections without an underlying cause, just like humans.  A single isolated infection doesnt' mean their immune system is shit becuase they were vaccinated 7 years ago or that they are allergic to every food they eat.  At the same time, there may be an underlying problem causing that infection, especially if its a reoccurant yeast infection.  That cannot be ignored. 


One of the key things with yeast and bacerterial growth in the ear is changes in pH that occur within the ear canal because this can actually provide a better growing environment for both yeast and bacteria . This is what makes substances like Triz-EDTA very effective both for treatment and prevention of ear infections.  I'm not a big fan of some of the homeopathic tree oils because I've seen some really bad reactions to some of them.  Everything you put into a dogs ear has the potential to change the pH of that ear canal.  This can be a good thing, or it can be a very, very bad thing if you cause irritation within the ear.  What this means is you can take a relatively minor infection and make it very bad relatively easily by randomly puttingn some of the things you can find out on the internet labeled as "homeopathic" or even "ear cleaner'.  A couple of examples:  One was a dog when I was an intern who looked like it had hot pokers put into its ears.  The owner was applying lemon oil and tea tree oil because she thought that the dog had an ear infection.  Nothing was seen on cytology other than normal bacterial flora---mild numbers of diphthroids.  When we convinced her that her dog didn't need antibiotics and finally got her to quit putting that crap in her dogs ears, the ears cleared up. 

I also saw a dog indirectly when I was in Ohio where the owner made it severely vestibular when she tried to "candle" the poor dogs ears.   She thought it worked for humans, it had to work for the dog.  Basically she managed to rupture the dogs eardrum and poured hot wax into its middle ear.  I wish I had more followup on that case, but I was just an observer when it came in for the initial emergency. 

I also wish I had a dollar for every ear infection I saw when I was in private practice where the owners totally made things much, much worse by trying to clean their dogs ears with hydrogen peroxide.  What is sad is I've heard veterinarians recommend this treatment as a cleanser.  Stop and think for a second, what does H2O2 do when it is exposed to biological media?  It breaks down to H2O and gives of O2 gas.  So basically by cleaning a dogs ear with hydrogen peroxide, you are creating an oxygen rich water filled environment in the dogs ear in which the surface skin is very irritated as a result of the action of the hydrogen peroxide.  Mallazzezia loves that kind of environment.  Its a recipe for a severe yeast infection or worse yet a severe mixed yeast and bacterial infection. 

Do you get what I'm trying to say?   I'm not a fan of randomly putting things in dogs ears because I think it leads to more problems.  It doesnt matter if its some homeopathic remedy, some junk you get from the gypsie down the street, or veterinary approved and licensed antimicrobials.   The type of infection present needs to be deterimined and then treated appropriately based on that evaluation.   Treatment needs to be of sufficient duration and followup MUST occur for you to prevent reoccurant infections. 



It kills me when changing a diet to a diet that does not promote yeast is scoffed at by a lot in the veterinary profession.   Seems to me that eliminating yeast contributors should be the first start, yet that logical step is skipped.  This is a bodybuilding forum, you ask the question here "what is the best supplement I can take" and you will most likely get at least one person saying "FOOD".   Why is that so different with pets?    If a person is diabetic you encourage them to change their diet, you don't say keep on eating loads of sugar and we will just adjust your insulin.  A lot of health problems have a diet change as part of the course of dealing with it.  Food fuels and supports (or hinders) the body.   Kibble IS evil when dealing with a chronic yeast problem. Changing the diet can have a dramatic affect, other treatment (conventional or holistic) may also be needed but they can be reduced or lessoned. Vaccines ARE evil when an immune system is already suppresed, which a chronic yeast problem is a result of.  Lets just suppress the hell out of it some more with yeasty foods and vaccines and see if that will help.  ::)


 If you look at that site I posted up until the very end those are all supplements listed to help the body deal with the yeast.  Not stuff to put in the ears. It also states to have your vet determine if it is yeast.   It also states not to do everything, do one thing at a time. It mentions environmental causes to look into and stress related ones.   I see nothing wrong with the info on that site or it listing supplements that may help the body.   It is providing less suppressive alternatives to try or that even may be used with conventional treatments.  I see that as giving people actual information they can use to be proactive.  I don't see anything on there that is flat out goofy or dangerous. 

  I don't lump all natural or holistic treatments in together, and don't scoff at conventional treatments, I think they both can be used together or separately as needed.   Just like you can't label every conventional treatment as bad, neither can you the holistic approaches.   You say I am biased, but you have some pretty strong biases yourself.   You give examples of messed up cases that owners did, but by the same token you can find many many examples of conventional medicine causing damage.  I could post examples of dogs that died or were harmed by veterinarian prescribed meds but I don't think I need to do that to prove a point. I actually laughed at you posting your stories, taking them for the attempt to prove your point.  ::)    I believe both of us can agree that ANY treatment can cause harm if misused or even if used correctly and both of us could have a lot of dollars for either conventional or holistic treatments causing harm.

   We are talking about chronic yeast problems, not a one time incident, but a dog that is constantly dealing with yeast.  Ignoring diet and eliminating known yeast contributors of foods that feed the yeast is a critical mistake that most vets make and I personally know of dogs that suffered needlessly for years on this vet prescribed treatment and then this one to not much change and when put on a yeast reducing diet they improved dramatically.  To ignore that is just going around in a circle.


 I don't have a hatred of evidence based medicine, actually I see the veterinary profession as having one.  They ignore scientific studies with vaccines for instance and go against the evidence with their protocols, you yourself have said that you do not even go by the current protocol, why?  Are the studies not evidence based enough for you?   They prescribe "preventatives" over the scientific evidence that proves they can be given less often.   And when a person makes a choice to use the scientific evidence to back their choices they are still usually made to feel wrong for doing so which makes no sense.  That is exactly the reason that people are doing things on their own, because they can't trust their vet.  If you get talked down to when you are using science to back up your decisions why in the hell would you want to discuss anything with that vet?  It's a no win situation sometimes.  The vet will tell you to go with the proven methods because their are studies to back it up, but they don't allow the client to use the study themselves to make a decision. The study shows out past 7 years duration of immunity, but the client is told they must do every 3 years.  Or some totally ignore studies and protocols and continue to do yearly because they are "harmless".   I see fear used a lot in the veterinary profession, fear of rabies, fear of real food, fear of this.   "Your dog WILL get rabies, distemper, heartworm, fleas and die from a poor diet if you don't listen to me." I do believe that blame is not squarely on the veterinary profession but also is a result of marketing by drug and kibble manufacturers who have a goal to push that on everyone also.  The big reason herbal supplement and the like are being pushed to be under the FDA, no on can patent and make money on that so let's make it hard for people to get that stuff and they will be forced to buy are stuff.  Make them fear rabid dogs and we can sell more vaccines.  Make them fear heartworm and we can sell them more than is needed to prevent heartworm, if they actually go by the proven studies we will sell less product, so we will say it needs to be given on this schedule and we can sell twice as much. Make them fear not being "complete and balanced" and we can get them to buy this processed crap with inferior ingredients we can get from China.  Money money money.  :-\

  Fortunately for the profession their is still a large number of people who will blindly go with whatever they are told.  I have had a vet tell me I would kill my dog by feeding raw.  This was not a nice conversation where he was trying to give advice, this guy was PISSED that I would DARE go against what he thought.  How DARE someone not use the 3 year protocol and want to go every 5 years even though science backs up that decision.  How DARE a person want to feed a species appropriate diet and not feed processed lifeless crap from a bag?  How DARE someone choose not to give heartworm meds as they think they should be despite scientific evidence that less poison can be given and provide protection (yes I know liability issues).    With the internet, for good and for bad, people have access to a lot of information they didn't have before and people are using that information, for good or bad.   Both the veterinary and the medical profession better start to realize that people are better armed to make decisions and to question and to research and to use that same evidence to support their decisions that have been used to support conventional medicine.   

  Both professions need to go back to some of the basics in some instances. Chronic yeast problem is a very good example of when going back to the basics should be the very first step in dealing with it.



 And for the record on a yahoo group I am on a person said her dog was having an ear problem and what could she do.  I told her she should got to the vet and find out what the actual problem was and go from there.  Not knowing if it was yeast, an infection or even something stuck in the ear I was not going to tell her to try this and that.  Once she had a diagnosis she could look into options, conventional, holistic or both.  I expect anyone to research for themselves anything they are told, be it a vet or anyone.   I may give a person sources to look at, but I expect them to make their own INFORMED decision. 


 


 
 

Lord Humungous

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Re: Oscar has a ear infection
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2008, 05:20:25 AM »
Whys he on hydroxazine. 


Pred and Otomax at the same time?  ::shudders::   This is just my opinion, but i would have treated those ears differently if its just a yeast infection----please don't take this as gospel becuase I haven't seen your dog as a patient, I'm just telling you what I would do generally for that type of ear infection. 


I'll be the first to admit I'm biased, but I really don't like otomax.  Its a "shotgun" drug.  It will work for some infections, but the corticosteroid in it has the potential to cause problems.  Not only that but Gentamicin as an antibiotic is actually ototoxic.  There have been reports of humans and dogs with hearing loss after recieving gentamicin.  Supposedly gentacin isn't absorbed across normal, intact skin, but it makes me nervous to put it right there in an infected ear, so close to the nerves involved with hearing where there is a good chance that the skin may very well be compromised. Not only that, but gentamicin is virtually ineffective against gram positive bacteria---its a great drug for gram negative aerobic bacilli (rods like e-coli) infections, although resistance is becoming more common.   Many ear infections are gram positive cocci bacterial infections, so gentacin may do nothing.  Betamethasone at the concentration in this drug is sufficient to cause localized immunosuppression and that high doses has been implicated for causing systemic hyperadrenocorticism. 

I know veterinarians who swear by otomax.  I'm not one of those.  And again, I'll freely admit i'm biased, but I don't like otomax as an ear drug. 





I'd strongly recommend you get those ears rechecked.  If not by this veterinarian, by a different one. 

Hes been on hydroxazine for his allergies since he was 1. every spring they flair up and every spring we put him on it.
X

emn1964

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Re: Oscar has a ear infection
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2008, 07:59:23 AM »
I've owned three golden retreivers and all seemed to have ear issues at one point.  I guess because of the deep ear canal and the fact that they loved to swim.  I had a very old vet (guy practiced until he was like 90) and he had me wash the inside of their ears out with diluted Joy dish washing detergent and then rinse them with diluted white vinegar.  I don't know why but this really worked.  After I started doing that they never progressed to an infection.

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Re: Oscar has a ear infection
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2008, 09:19:06 AM »
I've owned three golden retreivers and all seemed to have ear issues at one point.  I guess because of the deep ear canal and the fact that they loved to swim.  I had a very old vet (guy practiced until he was like 90) and he had me wash the inside of their ears out with diluted Joy dish washing detergent and then rinse them with diluted white vinegar.  I don't know why but this really worked.  After I started doing that they never progressed to an infection.

Id don't recommend doing that because iwth some of the new disinfectant dish soaps and the acid of vinegar you can irritate the shit out of a dogs ear....


That said, what he had you doing will work for a yeast otitis.  The joy acts as a ceruminolytic, breaking down the waxy debris and buildup.  Mallazzezia doesn't grow well in an acidic environment, so the vinegar acted as a natural fungistat.   It will work on some cases.  The problem is those it doesn't work on (like a bacterial otitis) can become nightmares with this old school TX. 

emn1964

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Re: Oscar has a ear infection
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2008, 12:05:53 PM »
Id don't recommend doing that because iwth some of the new disinfectant dish soaps and the acid of vinegar you can irritate the shit out of a dogs ear....


That said, what he had you doing will work for a yeast otitis.  The joy acts as a ceruminolytic, breaking down the waxy debris and buildup.  Mallazzezia doesn't grow well in an acidic environment, so the vinegar acted as a natural fungistat.   It will work on some cases.  The problem is those it doesn't work on (like a bacterial otitis) can become nightmares with this old school TX. 

Thanks for the explanation vet.  I always wondered about the scientific explanation for this.  Good to have someone on the board like you.