Insulin pre-contest question

[Has Beens]

I was curious how those of you are using it pre-contest ? I know the pros and cons (been there), but how is it used (and when) while prepping ?

I have my own ideas and was looking for other competitors thoughts.

Thanks

[Arnold jr]

I'd like to hear this too. I don't use insulin ever but am always curious as to what others do with insulin before a show.

[Van_Bilderass]

I don't compete but a guy I prepped simply did it post workout. Say you eat 300 grams of carbs a day and would like to shoot 10iu of Humalog post workout. He would eat maybe 200 of those carbs in the post workout period. Then he would simply adjust his carb/calorie intake and days he was using insulin according to how fast he was coming down. In the end of the diet only taking insulin after back and leg workouts for example, since carbs were too low to shoot insulin on the other days. He had a few high carb/cheat days (to fill out) here and there too, typically on a saturday when he didn't train. The first couple of meals of the day he would shoot insulin and eat low fat carb/protein meals. The friday before the high carb day he would go extra low on carbs to deplete glycogen in an attempt to get a bit of a rebound. He was leaner than his last comp when he didn't use insulin so I don't feel the insulin makes it harder to lose fat if you're in a deficit and only use it post workout.

[candidizzle]

I don't compete but a guy I prepped simply did it post workout. Say you eat 300 grams of carbs a day and would like to shoot 10iu of Humalog post workout. He would eat maybe 200 of those carbs in the post workout period. Then he would simply adjust his carb/calorie intake and days he was using insulin according to how fast he was coming down. In the end of the diet only taking insulin after back and leg workouts for example, since carbs were too low to shoot insulin on the other days. He had a few high carb/cheat days (to fill out) here and there too, typically on a saturday when he didn't train. The first couple of meals of the day he would shoot insulin and eat low fat carb/protein meals. The friday before the high carb day he would go extra low on carbs to deplete glycogen in an attempt to get a bit of a rebound. He was leaner than his last comp when he didn't use insulin so I don't feel the insulin makes it harder to lose fat if you're in a deficit and only use it post workout.

van, how exactly does insulin work  ?

[Van_Bilderass]

van, how exactly does insulin work  ?

For muscle growth? To be honest I don't know. I don't know what it does above and beyond just eating more. It seems to "work" for some though.

[Van_Bilderass]

i have used it getting ready thru two preps, and used primarily humulin-r eventhough i had humalog at my disposal as well.

i used 6-8 i.u per meal over 9 carb meals each day. the higher the meal in carbs, the more i.u i used, thats why the amounts differ. i started off each day higher in carbs per meal (110 for meal one) and tapered them down to 75 by meal 9, tapering the humulin as i went.

You're only talking about the final carb up right?

[no one]

You're only talking about the final carb up right?

sorry, i don't understand your question...?

that protocol is followed over the last 3 days going into a saturday show, if that is what you mean.

strictly pre- contest carb up.

[Van_Bilderass]

sorry, i don't understand your question...?

that protocol is followed over the last 3 days going into a saturday show, if that is what you mean.

strictly pre- contest carb up.

Yes I meant the carb up. Did you use it at all during the diet itself?

[no one]

Yes I meant the carb up. Did you use it at all during the diet itself?

not as regimentedly as i would have say if i were off season (humalog pre and post workout)- the only time i would use it is if i was getting flat thru the course of the prep, i'd use it on a high carb day to aid in filling me out, and if i did do that, i stopped doing it once i got to the 6 week out mark or so.

[Luv2Hurt]

i have used it getting ready thru two preps, and used primarily humulin-r eventhough i had humalog at my disposal as well.

i used 6-8 i.u per meal over 9 carb meals each day. the higher the meal in carbs, the more i.u i used, thats why the amounts differ. i started off each day higher in carbs per meal (110 for meal one) and tapered them down to 75 by meal 9, tapering the humulin as i went.

i carbed up wed/ thurs. i used vitagro (waxy maise) for one meal type and a carb source of whole foods for the next-  that meal consisting of 75% whole food carb and the other part being 25 % sugars. vitagro meal was 2 hours post whole meal, whole meal was 1.5 hours post vitargo meal. friday was a dry carb day no sugar or vitargo.

if your going to be running aldatcone as a diuretic, keep yams and potatoes to a minimum, right? stick with oats or rice cake.

and for the record- someone is posting pictures on the G and O of a person that is not me. i wouldn't be dispensing this advise to you if that kid was me as this is not something you fuck around with.

if you have any other questions, let me know. i can go into more detail if you like regarding whatever you have questions about. what i have written is broad based as it is suited for my body and exact amounts of carbs and types and protein sources are at each persons own discretion- this just gives you an idea.

hope this helps.

So you did not use insulin consistantly for the whole prep. just days and times you were feeling/looking flat?  Then i see you used it the last few days to fill out.  What was your diet like when you were not taking slin?  Mainly carb intake?

I like to diet on pretty low carbs for the prep, more fats.  Im always leary to throw a bunch of carbs at myself that last few days cause my body is not used to it so Im worried of water retention then.  I guess thats where the diuretics come in?

[RDW]

van, how exactly does insulin work  ?

Insulin increases glycogen synthesis, this forces the uptake of glucose into the liver and muscles and convert it into glycogen.  Insulin also increase amino acid uptake, forcing cells to absorb circulating aimo acids.  Absorbtion is further increased due to the arterial relaxation insulin produces, which increases blood flow.  A some what hardened look can be obtained short term due to increased potassium uptake as well, but that is rather negligible in my opinion, and the longer term use(meaning more than a few days) is increased adipose buildup.

For contest prep I could see someone taking it for the increased blood flow and potassium uptake.  I am not a competetor though and have never really focused on the fine details of contest prep.

[no one]

So you did not use insulin consistantly for the whole prep. just days and times you were feeling/looking flat?  Then i see you used it the last few days to fill out.  What was your diet like when you were not taking slin?  Mainly carb intake?

I like to diet on pretty low carbs for the prep, more fats.  Im always leary to throw a bunch of carbs at myself that last few days cause my body is not used to it so Im worried of water retention then.  I guess thats where the diuretics come in?

no, only on days that were higher in carbs and if i felt flat. if i felt good i would forgo it.

i used a carb rotation (high/medium/low/low/medium/high) to keep my metabolism running, instead of x number of carbs day after day. calories always remained the same either it be a high carb day or low carb. higher carb days i take in less protein to make up for the calories injested in carb form.

i have used a keto approach (zero carb) for one prep as well. standard carb up on a keto diet is 60 grams of carbs over 6 meals. didn't fill me out at all. in fact it took a good two days of constant eating after my show to properly fill me out as it takes me forever and lot of carbs to fill out well. i recommend if your going to run this type of diet, take a few days before you start your prep and fully deplete yourself of glycogen once you are in ketosis. then add in carbs and see what kind of amounts over how many days you are looking at to fill you out.

as a rule i don't like using diuretics. usually if your flat game day it isnt a lack of carbs that is causing it, but that you somehow mismanaged your diuretics at some point and cannot fill out as a result. running keto i know it was a lack of carbs and not the diuretics as i started my carb up long before i decided i would use a diuretic (lasix), which i finally did about 12 hours before show time.

truthfully if you are lean enough, you shouldn't need diuretics at the level most compete at, but yes in a prep using insulin and a typical heavy carb up, you may find it advantageous to have some kind of diuretic on hand. and plan ahead what kind and how you are going to use it- if your running aldactone/diazide then you have to start aldactone on say the tuesday, see?

[Luv2Hurt]

no, only on days that were higher in carbs and if i felt flat. if i felt good i would forgo it.

i used a carb rotation (high/medium/low/low/medium/high) to keep my metabolism running, instead of x number of carbs day after day. calories always remained the same either it be a high carb day or low carb. higher carb days i take in less protein to make up for the calories injested in carb form.

i have used a keto approach (zero carb) for one prep as well. standard carb up on a keto diet is 60 grams of carbs over 6 meals. didn't fill me out at all. in fact it took a good two days of constant eating after my show to properly fill me out as it takes me forever and lot of carbs to fill out well. i recommend if your going to run this type of diet, take a few days before you start your prep and fully deplete yourself of glycogen once you are in ketosis. then add in carbs and see what kind of amounts over how many days you are looking at to fill you out.

as a rule i don't like using diuretics. usually if your flat game day it isnt a lack of carbs that is causing it, but that you somehow mismanaged your diuretics at some point and cannot fill out as a result. running keto i know it was a lack of carbs and not the diuretics as i started my carb up long before i decided i would use a diuretic (lasix), which i finally did about 12 hours before show time.

truthfully if you are lean enough, you shouldn't need diuretics at the level most compete at, but yes in a prep using insulin and a typical heavy carb up, you may find it advantageous to have some kind of diuretic on hand. and plan ahead what kind and how you are going to use it- if your running aldactone/diazide then you have to start aldactone on say the tuesday, see?

Thanks man that was an excellent explanation.  Iam going to experiment more next prep to see how far I can push the carbs and still get in shape.  Maybe a small dose of dayazide (sp) that friday and saturday morning and it could be all I need.  Agree the diruetics are just to be used as icing on the cake and a fix being way off.  I was told i could expect about 10% improvement from a little dayazide used like that.

[Vet]

For muscle growth? To be honest I don't know. I don't know what it does above and beyond just eating more. It seems to "work" for some though.

Thats really the key with insulin.... it "seems" to work. 

"Placebo" is the most powerful anabolic compound known to man.  There is a billion dollar worldwide supplement industry based entirely on the immense power of "Placebo"

There is no denying the anabolic properties of Insulin in the terms of glucose uptake and protein metabolism.  The often overlooked concept is the counterregulatory hormones that the body possess to maintain normal blood glucose levels in a nondiabetic.  As soon as that blood glucose starts to drop from the insulin injection, the body is secreting epinephrine, cortisol and glucagon to get the blood sugar back to normal.  Thats one of my big hangups with the people taking insulin who aren't insulin resistant (from excessive exogenous androgens or HGH) or diabetics.  They start a counteregulatory hormone cascade that seems to me to be very detrimental to muscular growth. 

[Vet]

Insulin increases glycogen synthesis, this forces the uptake of glucose into the liver and muscles and convert it into glycogen.  Insulin also increase amino acid uptake, forcing cells to absorb circulating aimo acids.  Absorbtion is further increased due to the arterial relaxation insulin produces, which increases blood flow.  A some what hardened look can be obtained short term due to increased potassium uptake as well, but that is rather negligible in my opinion, and the longer term use(meaning more than a few days) is increased adipose buildup.

For contest prep I could see someone taking it for the increased blood flow and potassium uptake.  I am not a competetor though and have never really focused on the fine details of contest prep.

I disagree with the adipose uptake taking a few days.  That occurs from day 1.  Insulin doesn't distinguish between adipose and muscular tissue, it has the same function in each.  The difference is the metabolic rate of the individual tissue.  Fat tissue has a lower relatively metabolic rate than muscular tissue, so it has fewer insulin receptors---think about it, the higher the metabolic rate, the higher glucose demand for that tissue.  So if you are increasing insulin by taking exogenous insulin, you are stimulting fat cell growth from the point of first injection. 

The other thing is high insulin levels will inhibit fat metabolism, making it harder to loose bodyfat. 

[Van_Bilderass]

I disagree with the adipose uptake taking a few days.  That occurs from day 1. 

Well it depends on if you are depleted of glycogen when you use it, doesn't it? On a cyclical ketogenic diet you can actually carb up (while not eating much dietary fat), be above maintenance calories, and continue to lose fat until glycogen is replenished. A pretty neat metabolic trick.

Fat tissue has a lower relatively metabolic rate than muscular tissue, so it has fewer insulin receptors---think about it, the higher the metabolic rate, the higher glucose demand for that tissue.

Does adipose tissue have a demand for glucose?

[Vet]

Well it depends on if you are depleted of glycogen when you use it, doesn't it? On a cyclical ketogenic diet you can actually carb up (while not eating much dietary fat), be above maintenance calories, and continue to lose fat until glycogen is replenished. A pretty neat metabolic trick.

Does adipose tissue have a demand for glucose?

The difference between a ketogenic diet is that you have induced fat metabolism by limiting carbohydrates.  When you are in ketosis, the body is essentially in a starvation state as a result of the carbohydrate restriction.  Glucose is used as the primary energy source for all cells within the body (inculding fat cells---and insulin is the hormone that is necessary for that glucose uptake) To induce ketosis you must become glycogen depleted (you use up all of the bodies preferred fuel) and thus induce the process where fatty acid chains are cleaved to form acetyl-CoA and the ketone byproducts we think of with Ketosis.  Acetyl-CoA that is produced will enter Krebs Cycle where it is metabolized to produce ATP for energy use in the cells.  You must have a very high concentration of glucagon present in the blood for this to occur because glucagon inactivates hexokinase and phosphofructokinase-1 which then causes most cells in the body (neurons and red bloodcells can't do this) to use fatty acids as their primary energy source. Glucose will be syntesized in the liver for energy for neurons and redblood cells. 

What happens once a body is in this state of ketosis is there is a period of "catchup" where the metabolic pathways that lead to ketone production are not downregulated until the body is in a state of homeostasis.  Thats why you see the continued fat burning until glycogen stores are replenished. 

In a normal body, cells are primed to use glucose as the primary fuel source with a proportionately lower percentage of fat metabolized.  So I don't think you'll see what you are thinking about happen.