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GymTime

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« on: May 04, 2008, 08:46:21 AM »
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Van_Bilderass

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Re: Hypertrophy - DOMS related?
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2008, 08:51:04 AM »
microtrauma should cause soreness...

thoughts?

There's some research saying DOMS has something to do with the connective tissue surrounding the muscle and nothing to do with any muscle tissue trauma. I don't remember the specifics right now but I'm sure you can find the latest research via google/pubmed, etc.

muscularny

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Re: Hypertrophy - DOMS related?
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2008, 08:54:17 AM »
99.9% if you dont get sore when training a body part its either because

a) you didnt have the propper mind muscle connection and didnt contract the muscle that you where training 110% (very common with biceps)

b) you are overtraining that body part (again very common with biceps)

best gains made on small groups like biceps is when you only train them heavy once a month and tris twice a month thats it.

Thats why you rarely see guys with big arms simply because they overtrain

swilkins1984

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Re: Hypertrophy - DOMS related?
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2008, 08:54:23 AM »
I think if nutrition, sleep, and progression in reps or weight are happening DOMS is a sign that growth has to happen. DOMS is micro tears in the muscle so if they heal and you are improving your body is adapting by growing. My two cents maybe worth one cent  ;D

Ursus

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Re: Hypertrophy - DOMS related?
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2008, 08:57:12 AM »
I like DOMS

i am also not sore all the time after training. only at tiumes. yes i can feel that i have trainined a group perhaps thought not always sore.

i prefer to train below my limit, never to failure and that way i seme to get stronger and better, faster.

candidizzle

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Re: Hypertrophy - DOMS related?
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2008, 03:55:27 PM »


best gains made on small groups like biceps is when you only train them heavy once a month and tris twice a month thats it.


::)

Ursus

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Re: Hypertrophy - DOMS related?
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2008, 03:56:47 PM »
correct. it works for size too

think of it as a taking a run up to a long jump rather than just standing and jumping.

one u get a new pb then drop weight down and start back up again till u get another pb. tho be patiant.

say ur pb is 5x5 300lbs bench many people would drop to 265lbs 5x5 and add too mnay lbs per workout etc.

i drop to say 240 adding 5lbs a workout. works a treat.

i do this for everything

Gavin Laird

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Re: Hypertrophy - DOMS related?
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2008, 11:58:35 AM »
Strength athletes and bodybuilders often equate delayed onset muscular soreness with progress in strength or muscle hypertrophy. This equation does not hold true, the real relationship between training, soreness and progress is as follows:

Training can provide a stimulus for progress.
Training can induce Delayed Onset Muscular Soreness (DOMS).
Different training means have different effects on short and long term training effects.

Soreness does not equal progress.
Progress is not reliant upon soreness.

Soreness and progress can coincide, but there is not a causal relationship between them. Sometimes the training means that induce soreness also happen to be the same ones that provide a stimulus for progress in strength  /hypertrophy at a particular time. Alas, this is not always the case or training would be a simple case of making yourself sore, waiting for the soreness to go away, and then making yourself sore again. This “single factor” approach to progression fails to take in to account that although maximal efforts are not possible during recovery periods, sub-maximal efforts are possible and can play a useful part in enhancing progress further still.

Training means that are well known for inducing soreness include emphasised eccentric (negative) movements, sudden increases in training volume of a given body part or lift and the introduction of a novel exercise that you have not performed for a long period of time. Obviously at some point in an athletes training negative emphasis movements, increases in training volume and the use of novel stimuli can all play a part in generating renewed progress, but the key is to utilise these means at the correct time and in the correct context. Merely using them to generate DOMS is pointless.

 The problem with training means that are designed to cause soreness is simply that they can hinder further training in the short term and that eventually hinders long term progress in strength. Admittedly this is more prevalent in beginning or intermediate athletes, most Elite / sub-elite athletes are conditioned to training despite muscular soreness and fatigue although this rarely comes from deliberate attempts to cause DOMS.

I feel the same way about training means that are deliberately designed to cause exhaustion / fatigue (eg training to failure, forced reps, drop sets etc).
These means can be used effectively from time to time and are perhaps worthwhile when working with low loading schedules / low training frequencies but if these means substantially reduce the athletes training frequency then the possible benefits are often negated. There is an old axiom that says “You can train hard or you can train long...but you can’t train hard for long” that is often used to promote so called “High Intensity Training (HIT)”. A more useful axiom would be “You can train to create soreness and fatigue, or you can train often, but you can’t train to create soreness and fatigue often”. Both methodologies are of value, at the correct time and in the correct context, but this is a classic example of the conflict between maximising training frequency and fatigue caused by training reducing training frequency.