Interesting Obama quotes

[shootfighter1]

Sure Decker.  You are one of the individuals I enjoy exchanging ideas/debating with. 
I agree that subsidies given to huge corporations should be looked at more carefully, as you pointed out, there is likely lots of abuse there.  However, I do not believe in high captial gains taxes or taxing profits disproportionally.  Those kinds of taxes limit business investment, incentives and profits taxes are passed on.

I like Obama (and Clinton's) idea of not giving subsidies or tax breaks for companies that move large #s of plants overseas.

[Decker]

Assuming I accept your sources at face value, this isn't socialism.  It isn't "Bush's socialism."

I don't support any subsidies for the oil cartel, or the tobacco cartel.  Don't have a problem at all with lower capital gains taxes.  That isn't socialism.  The rest doesn't really bother me, particularly the tax deductions.  That isn't socialism.   

What is socialism? 

[Decker]

Sure Decker.  You are one of the individuals I enjoy exchanging ideas/debating with. 
I agree that subsidies given to huge corporations should be looked at more carefully, as you pointed out, there is likely lots of abuse there.

Same here.   

However, I do not believe in high captial gains taxes or taxing profits disproportionally.  Those kinds of taxes limit business investment, incentives and profits taxes are passed on.

I do agree with this.  I know that corporations pass on the costs of taxes but I'm all right with that.  It's like spreading the risk under insurance.
I

like Obama (and Clinton's) idea of not giving subsidies or tax breaks for companies that move large #s of plants overseas.

I admire any candidate that encourages buying american products/creating american jobs.

[Dos Equis]

What is socialism? 

Pick one.     http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+socialism

[Decker]

Pick one.     http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+socialism

I am asking you what you think 'Socialism' is.

I have my own idea sir and I'd like to hear your idea.

[Dos Equis]

I am asking you what you think 'Socialism' is.

I have my own idea sir and I'd like to hear your idea.

Among other things, complete government control of public and private industry, forced redistribution of wealth, and punishment and/or stifling of success by the government (e.g., taking more than half of a person's income over a certain level).

What is your definition?   

[Decker]

Among other things, complete government control of public and private industry, forced redistribution of wealth, and punishment and/or stifling of success by the government (e.g., taking more than half of a person's income over a certain level).

What is your definition?   

Isn't the president and congress redistributing the country's wealth to the economic elites via subsidies?  Do the economic elites need a corruption of the free market even if it does inure to their individual benefit?

Socialism is ownership of the means of production by all people involved where production is carried out more for use than for profit--the economy is planned. 

To me that is a decent barebones defintion of the concept.

In Bush's plutocratic form, the elites own the means of production, they get the redistributed subsidies, gov. contracts and national resources.  They steer all economic advantage to themselves while "sharing" the costs of business with all americans.

[Dos Equis]

Isn't the president and congress redistributing the country's wealth to the economic elites via subsidies?  Do the economic elites need a corruption of the free market even if it does inure to their individual benefit?

Socialism is ownership of the means of production by all people involved where production is carried out more for use than for profit--the economy is planned. 

To me that is a decent barebones defintion of the concept.

In Bush's plutocratic form, the elites own the means of production, they get the redistributed subsidies, gov. contracts and national resources.  They steer all economic advantage to themselves while "sharing" the costs of business with all americans.

Yes the government is engaged in some form of redistribution of wealth (e.g., taxes used to support infrastructure, pay public employees, and welfare).  But you know that's not what I'm talking about.  I think when I and many others talk about redistribution of wealth we are referring to, for instance, Obama raising taxes on people he considers "wealthy" and taking that revenue to support his pet social programs.

Our free market system is the antithesis of socialism.  We are free to form whatever business we like, with the government providing some oversight (like antitrust laws, the courts, etc.). 

Do you work for a private company or for the government?   

[Decker]

Yes the government is engaged in some form of redistribution of wealth (e.g., taxes used to support infrastructure, pay public employees, and welfare).  But you know that's not what I'm talking about.  I think when I and many others talk about redistribution of wealth we are referring to, for instance, Obama raising taxes on people he considers "wealthy" and taking that revenue to support his pet social programs.

Our free market system is the antithesis of socialism.  We are free to form whatever business we like, with the government providing some oversight (like antitrust laws, the courts, etc.). 

Do you work for a private company or for the government?   

Taxes and tax revenue are not socialism.  Even if those tax dollars are paid to GE or an impoverished family.

In the US, We have a free market for the rank and file people and a socialized form of capitalism for the elites where they receive benefits, subsidies, resources, gov funded R&D and much more while passing the costs of business/risk to the american taxpayer.

I am a partner in a private firm.  I don't anticipate the government bailing my company out if it faced bankruptcy.  Can Bear Stearns or Ford say the same thing?

Do you work for government or a private company?

[Dos Equis]

Taxes and tax revenue are not socialism.  Even if those tax dollars are paid to GE or an impoverished family.

In the US, We have a free market for the rank and file people and a socialized form of capitalism for the elites where they receive benefits, subsidies, resources, gov funded R&D and much more while passing the costs of business/risk to the american taxpayer.

I am a partner in a private firm.  I don't anticipate the government bailing my company out if it faced bankruptcy.  Can Bear Stearns or Ford say the same thing?

Do you work for government or a private company?

I didn't say and don't believe that taxes are socialism. 

Free market applies to everyone. 

Does your company affect millions of consumers?  If not, that’s the primary distinction between your company and a company like Ford. 

Does the government control the type of law your firm practices, who your clients are, what you charge by the hour, and what you earn? 

I'm part owner of a private company. 

[Decker]

I didn't say and don't believe that taxes are socialism. 

Free market applies to everyone. 

Does your company affect millions of consumers?  If not, that’s the primary distinction between your company and a company like Ford. 

Does the government control the type of law your firm practices, who your clients are, what you charge by the hour, and what you earn? 

I'm part owner of a private company. 

I don't work at a law firm.  I am a partner in a pension administration firm.  We may not affect millions yet but we certainly affect thousands.  Our charges are asset based for trust valuations and service based for taxfilings and compliance testing. 

Since the government makes the law in this country, I would say that it makes regulations for my business...especially the IRS and DOL.

The free market does apply to everyone.  It's just that for the elites, they also have the socialism handouts and protection from bankruptcy offered by OUR government.

I don't have that.

Bears Stearns engaged in shady business practices...yet the gov. handed over 30 billion.

If that's not favoritism, then what is? 

Oh the gov. had a good reason for the bailout, right?

I'm certain that 'good reason' is not fidelity to the free market.

[Dos Equis]

I don't work at a law firm.  I am a partner in a pension administration firm.  We may not affect millions yet but we certainly affect thousands.  Our charges are asset based for trust valuations and service based for taxfilings and compliance testing. 

Since the government makes the law in this country, I would say that it makes regulations for my business...especially the IRS and DOL.

The free market does apply to everyone.  It's just that for the elites, they also have the socialism handouts and protection from bankruptcy offered by OUR government.

I don't have that.

Bears Stearns engaged in shady business practices...yet the gov. handed over 30 billion.

If that's not favoritism, then what is? 

Oh the gov. had a good reason for the bailout, right?

I'm certain that 'good reason' is not fidelity to the free market.

Businesses fail all the time.  We just lost two:  Molokai Ranch and Aloha Airlines.  Thousands of people lost their jobs.  Terrible.   

I have mixed feelings about government bailouts.  In general, I don't think the government should bail out a failing business.  On the other hand, if the business affects millions of people and could adversely affect the economy nationwide, then government intervention might be helpful.  Overall, though, I think businesses should operate with as little government interference as possible and survive or fail based on their merit. 

What do you mean by "elites"?   

[Decker]

Businesses fail all the time.  We just lost two:  Molokai Ranch and Aloha Airlines.  Thousands of people lost their jobs.  Terrible.   

I have mixed feelings about government bailouts.  In general, I don't think the government should bail out a failing business.  On the other hand, if the business affects millions of people and could adversely affect the economy nationwide, then government intervention might be helpful.  Overall, though, I think businesses should operate with as little government interference as possible and survive or fail based on their merit. 

What do you mean by "elites"?   

I mean the corporate executives whose income has gone up 500% and the plutocratic business owners--the top 10% that own over 80% of wealth in the US.