Knowledgable experts needed.....

[wiz]

Cycle:

tren 100mg eod     week 1-6
winny 50mg eod  week 3-10

Need some info on PCT and input on why everyone wants to sub test over winny. I am well aware of possible sides with libido, is that the only reason people like test over winny in this cycle.  I am a novice so I am more interested in a PCT program for this cycle.  

[candidizzle]

test= key


hcg+ nolva = pct

[Emmortal]

How many cycles have you done?
What are your goals?
What does your diet look like?

[wiz]

This will be my third cycle , but last one was more then 5 yrs ago.   The last cycle I did was Eq and the first was more than 10 yrs ago and it was sustenon and omnidren.  I am 32 yrs old 250lbs with a BF around 18-20% I am looking for a beach(athletic) look not for competition.

Info on PCT is most important info that I need , but will listen to any info on cycle.

PCT:  what to take, when to take, and how much

Thanks for the help again!

[phenom]

test= key

No you dont need test if you were 40 then yes but not at 32 your body's still making enough.
I would make the tren 75mgs ed and no need for PCT Tren is as androgenic as it is anabolic.

[Arnold jr]

No you dont need test if you were 40 then yes but not at 32 your body's still making enough.
I would make the tren 75mgs ed and no need for PCT Tren is as androgenic as it is anabolic.

Odds are with tren he's going to be shut down pretty hard without supplementing with exogenous test. Like I've said several times on this board, there are guys who can run things like tren without test and they are fine doing so...they are a minority though.

[phenom]

Odds are with tren he's going to be shut down pretty hard without supplementing with exogenous test. Like I've said several times on this board, there are guys who can run things like tren without test and they are fine doing so...they are a minority though.

Your def right everybody is dif and I understand the concern about getting shut down. However from the looks of this he decided to do a cycle that will harden and dry him up with very keepable gains. To add test I feel would detract from his keepable gains and he would prob not get his desired look. I have ran similar cycles of tren and winni and gained a nice hard 10 pounds. I'm no fan of test I feel its age dependant and is without a doubt the best hormone for anybody over 40.

[Van_Bilderass]

I would make the tren 75mgs ed and no need for PCT Tren is as androgenic as it is anabolic.

What? Why no need for PCT?

[phenom]

Van your right Tren will shut you down good and some people have a hard time getting the boys back into action. Its just my opinion people should try things without a PCT at first. Def keep HCG on hand if your feeling problems from being shut down. I used to always you PCT then on the recommendation of a way more experienced user he said try doing it with out so I did. I noticed little difference your recommendation for being on the safe side is prob better than mine. Like I said in the past I feel like people over do it a little with the PCT nowadays. I personally have been shocked by what I was able to take and still have no problems after my cycle.

[local hero]

i agree, pct isnt always needed, its somthing youve got to figure out for your self... i dont agree with the no test comments tho, if your diet is spot on youl look hard as nails on a plain test only cycle

[phenom]

That depends on the test if its suspension then yes you could look hard. If in any of the other estered compounds then I say no. If I was a recreational user like he seems to be I would not want to have to pin 2 times a day a day as in tren and suspension. I still feel he's gonna get the look he wants without the test.

[Luv2Hurt]

Your def right everybody is dif and I understand the concern about getting shut down. However from the looks of this he decided to do a cycle that will harden and dry him up with very keepable gains. To add test I feel would detract from his keepable gains and he would prob not get his desired look. I have ran similar cycles of tren and winni and gained a nice hard 10 pounds. I'm no fan of test I feel its age dependant and is without a doubt the best hormone for anybody over 40.

No in reality everybody is a lot more similar than different.  Physiologically humans respond in a basically predictable manner that is pretty much why most medicines work for most people.  Yes there are some exceptions.  It sounds rather noble we are all different but really we are more than likely similar.

[tstmaniac]

That depends on the test if its suspension then yes you could look hard. If in any of the other estered compounds then I say no. If I was a recreational user like he seems to be I would not want to have to pin 2 times a day a day as in tren and suspension. I still feel he's gonna get the look he wants without the test.

you can look hard on any test...as long as you doing enough cardio, dieting real clean and have arimidex....why would he have to shoot two times a day? you can mix in the same syringe...and why would you say u dont need pct with tren...that shit def shuts you down...

[phenom]

you can look hard on any test...as long as you doing enough cardio, dieting real clean and have arimidex....why would he have to shoot two times a day? you can mix in the same syringe...and why would you say u dont need pct with tren...that shit def shuts you down...

Sure you can do everything you just said only prob is this guy is a novice. I doubt he wants to be on a clean diet do AM cardio and try to mix oil and water based compounds. He didn't say anything about AI or AE he is a novice. I'm trying to keep it simple for him. Will tren shut you down yes but as a novice if I were him I would try to do without PCT. See if his body bounces back quick or if he needs assistance. Some people around here do 2 weeks of d-bol and a month of PCT, amazes me they even gain anything but water. If people are that scared of getting shut down don't take hormones and you'll be fine.

[Van_Bilderass]

Will tren shut you down yes but as a novice if I were him I would try to do without PCT. See if his body bounces back quick or if he needs assistance.

I'm not saying PCT is absolutely necessary, and I know a bunch of people who never do any PCT and maintain well, but if you do any significant amount of tren it's going to take a long time to recover fully without assistance. I don't care who you are. A single shot of Deca @ 100mg will take 6 weeks to recover from according to studies. Six weeks of tren @ 100mg EOD = several months in best case scenario is my guess.

[phenom]

I would def say he should take your advice Van as far as I'm concerned your the most knowlegable guy on here. I guess I'm just trying to make my point thats guys shouldn't be so scared of getting shut down. I think any type of long cycle its needed but the 12 weekers I do I never seem to have problems. Like you and a couple guys on here I try to relate personal experience and not just copy and paste shit from steroid.com.

[tstmaniac]

I would def say he should take your advice Van as far as I'm concerned your the most knowlegable guy on here. I guess I'm just trying to make my point thats guys shouldn't be so scared of getting shut down. I think any type of long cycle its needed but the 12 weekers I do I never seem to have problems. Like you and a couple guys on here I try to relate personal experience and not just copy and paste shit from steroid.com.

its not only getting shut down...its the circulating estrogen in the body a couple weeks after the cycle...in my opinion pct should always be taken no matter how many cycles youve done...mayb not hcg for a newbie...but atleast some clomid and arimidex..

[candidizzle]

why do "pct" at all?..    i say, switch the compounds and keep on truckin' !   

lol kidding ...kidding..      well, not if your a top level competitor im not kidding, but thats different


is there any kind of legal serm, like there is a legal anti aromatase (atd) ?

[local hero]

i only speak from 1st hand experience... none of the british lads i know ever do propper pcts, and that includes 2 pros and a british champ... they all have kids, dont need viagra etc etc...

 i only started doin them from reading too much on things like this, they all rolled there eyes when i told them,,, now ive went back to not doin them and noticed no difference at all...

far too many internet experts making things much more complicated than they realy are, and sayin things like there set in stone......

and as far as the cant get hard on test... u could get to show level with no 'hardeners' at all, as much as people dont like to beleive it, it realy is down to diet and cardio..

[Luv2Hurt]

i only speak from 1st hand experience... none of the british lads i know ever do propper pcts, and that includes 2 pros and a british champ... they all have kids, dont need viagra etc etc...
 i only started doin them from reading too much on things like this, they all rolled there eyes when i told them,,, now ive went back to not doin them and noticed no difference at all...

far too many internet experts making things much more complicated than they realy are, and sayin things like there set in stone......

and as far as the cant get hard on test... u could get to show level with no 'hardeners' at all, as much as people dont like to beleive it, it realy is down to diet and cardio..

Of course, nobody ever needs Viagra.

[tstmaniac]

i only speak from 1st hand experience... none of the british lads i know ever do propper pcts, and that includes 2 pros and a british champ... they all have kids, dont need viagra etc etc...

 i only started doin them from reading too much on things like this, they all rolled there eyes when i told them,,, now ive went back to not doin them and noticed no difference at all...

far too many internet experts making things much more complicated than they realy are, and sayin things like there set in stone......

and as far as the cant get hard on test... u could get to show level with no 'hardeners' at all, as much as people dont like to beleive it, it realy is down to diet and cardio..

you keep more of your gains with post cycle therapy plain and simple..why wait for your test to kick in back naturally when you can jumpstart it with hcg..it takes too long for you test levels to come back naturally....you may feel fine but go and get a blood test and youll see..

[phenom]

you keep more of your gains with post cycle therapy plain and simple..why wait for your test to kick in back naturally when you can jumpstart it with hcg..it takes too long for you test levels to come back naturally....you may feel fine but go and get a blood test and youll see..

This is where we differ I look at steroids as a temporary effect. You seem to want to keep most of what you gain with your PCT. Thats fine but in my experience your natural test levels will NEVER support 30 extra pounds of muscle over your bodies natural state. So for me when I go off I clean right out then start over I do time on equals time off. Its the reason for increasing doses to get larger  if you could simple always keep even half of what you gained on cycle you would never need to up the dossage. You could just do the same cycle and keep adding ten pounds. Steroids effects are temporary if you don't want to lose the gains don't go off just like the pros.

[tstmaniac]

This is where we differ I look at steroids as a temporary effect. You seem to want to keep most of what you gain with your PCT. Thats fine but in my experience your natural test levels will NEVER support 30 extra pounds of muscle over your bodies natural state. So for me when I go off I clean right out then start over I do time on equals time off. Its the reason for increasing doses to get larger  if you could simple always keep even half of what you gained on cycle you would never need to up the dossage. You could just do the same cycle and keep adding ten pounds. Steroids effects are temporary if you don't want to lose the gains don't go off just like the pros.

with my experiences of using aas i have kept some gains each time...they were not huge gains but like 5 to 7 pounds...we do differ in the sense that i want to build myself up naturally as well as using steriods...thats why i only do 1 to 2 cycles a year..and train naturally the rest of the time..

[rccs]

Forcing your body to recover without pct will make your body "tired" and the adjustments that it will have to do in order to recover are muscle loss so that fat can be saved from being burned for the test excess. Pct will "spare" your recovery system by doing most of the job, like this you will avoid testicle fatique, among other things. I know that I wouldn't need to run pct very seriously, but I always run 10 mg nolva for 15 days (10 days after my last shot) after a 6 week (500mg sust per week / 30mg naps every day). When the effect of test starts to fade my natural test will be almost getting its normal levels.

[phenom]

[quotewith my experiences of using aas i have kept some gains each time...they were not huge gains but like 5 to 7 pounds...we do differ in the sense that i want to build myself up naturally as well as using steriods...thats why i only do 1 to 2 cycles a year..and train naturally the rest of the time..][/quote]

Those gains you kept are pretty much about right I thought you were implying that you kept most to all of you gains. See I'm an anabolics kinda guy and not much for water retention so when I'm on I only ever gain maybe 15 pounds and when I go off I can usually keep 7-10 pounds of that for 3 months or better. As what I gain is always muscle it just hangs around long enough for me to start another cycle. If your having success with your PCT then stick with it but don't be scared to try it sometime without you might just be surprised at how well your body can bounce back left to its own devices.