Author Topic: Remind me - Why no Adex during PCT?  (Read 7015 times)

Tapeworm

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Remind me - Why no Adex during PCT?
« on: May 12, 2008, 11:34:00 AM »
I'm sure I read a good reason somewhere once, but damned if I haven't forgotten it.

Looks like it'll be clomid for my SERM.  Wouldn't a low dose of Adex like .25 eod during PCT help out and also reduce post-SERM risk since there would be very little E to find its way to the ER on the hypothalamus?

Suicide inhibitors like Gaspari novadex, 6oxo, and exemestane (which I've seen recommended for PCT) get some attention for raising T levels.  I don't understand why an anti E like Adex wouldn't do the same during PCT.

Any help?

candidizzle

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Re: Remind me - Why no Adex during PCT?
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2008, 11:41:33 AM »
it would help out post pct... but during pct there is no tes no inhibit from being converted into to estogen so anti aromatase does nothing...untill that test is present ...   serm makes body think no estrogen=so it produce testosterone, but only if balls are working. hcg fix that. so, hcg, then serm, then anti aromatase.. 

no not from experience just reading learning nd science

Van_Bilderass

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Re: Remind me - Why no Adex during PCT?
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2008, 12:26:09 PM »
Karl Hoffman, a late steroid expert (expert in my opinion), reasoned that post cycle you'd want to normalize both testosterone and estrogen, as well as SHBG (which AI's lower). The post cycle period should be about normalization of the hormonal profile, not about driving down estrogen into the basement, etc. If you get a sky high test level with both a SERM and AI, while having low SHBG this would again negatively affect the feedback loop, especially once the drugs are withdrawn. This sounded logical to me.

Lately Patrick Arnold has theorized that it might be beneficial to run an AI for a short period after the SERM since he thinks there would be some estrogen rebound once the SERM is withdrawn.

Mega Man

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Re: Remind me - Why no Adex during PCT?
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2008, 01:31:18 PM »

Well…maybe…but there’s still the issue of estrogen caused by that HCG-stimulated surge in testosterone. Well…we can use low doses (300iu or so) to avoid some of that major spike in estrogen, and thus cause far less inhibition from the HCG (26). Of course, I’d want to use a bit more HCG per injection (500iu), if I could, to get my body functioning fully more quickly, and lose less of my gains. Maybe we can get away with taking some Vitamin E with our HCG, since it increases the responsiveness of plasma testosterone levels to HCG, making them significantly higher during vitamin E administration than without it (27). So we can get a better response with our HCG by taking Vitamin E (I recommend 1,000iu/day), but that doesn’t get rid of the problem that we have, which is the estrogen increase the HCG will cause.

Lets solve that pesky estrogen problem now…. Lets add in an Aromatase Inhibitor! Which one, though? Well, since we are already using Nolvadex, we can’t use Letrozole or Arimidex, as the Nolvadex will actually greatly decrease the blood plasma levels of them (28)!

So we have to use Aromasin (exemestane) as our AI, because it’s an aromatase inactivator, meaning it makes estrogen receptors useless, and instead of just inhibiting production (as an anti-aromatase would do) it cuts off production totally. Aromasin can also cause androgenic sides (29)(30)(31), which may help to elevate your mood while you are on PCT. This final drug in my recommended PCT can effectively remove up to about 85%+ of estrogen from your body (32). Most importantly, using Aromasin together with Nolvadex doesn’t reduce exemestane’s effectiveness (33). So now, I think the problem of ANY inhibition possible with HCG is solved, and we can use that 500iu/day dose that I wanted to use previously.


4thAD

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Re: Remind me - Why no Adex during PCT?
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2008, 02:21:45 PM »
1mg adex ed will lower estrogens approximately 50%, a 58% increase in testosterone, and an 18% decrease in IGF. This would not the best to use for PCT. 25mg Aromasin on the other hand would be the best choice for PCT. It will approximately lower estrogens 40 - 62%, increase testosterone by 60%, and plasma lipids and IGF-1 concentrations are not affected by treatment. This will also help stop estrogen rebound when run for an extra two weeks for a total of six weeks.

PS I have posted the studies on this info.

4thAD

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Re: Remind me - Why no Adex during PCT?
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2008, 02:35:22 PM »
Karl Hoffman, a late steroid expert (expert in my opinion), reasoned that post cycle you'd want to normalize both testosterone and estrogen, as well as SHBG (which AI's lower). The post cycle period should be about normalization of the hormonal profile, not about driving down estrogen into the basement, etc. If you get a sky high test level with both a SERM and AI, while having low SHBG this would again negatively affect the feedback loop, especially once the drugs are withdrawn. This sounded logical to me.

Lately Patrick Arnold has theorized that it might be beneficial to run an AI for a short period after the SERM since he thinks there would be some estrogen rebound once the SERM is withdrawn.

Didn't we debate this issue a few months back or was it someone else? I have been using aromasin in my PCT with flawless results. Granted this is followed by on cycle HCG use. I dont know if PA suggests only use after the serm is stopped, or during as well. In my PCT I run it all the way through.

Tapeworm

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Re: Remind me - Why no Adex during PCT?
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2008, 10:00:23 AM »