Author Topic: Supreme Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage  (Read 112011 times)

War-Horse

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #125 on: May 19, 2008, 07:57:07 PM »
Good post. 

And what if God created you with both sets of genitalia?  Should you consult a priest/pastor about whether God wanted you to be of male or female gender? Or should you just let the doctor play God as they used to in the past?





Hermaphrodites??    Id say it would be their choice.... :-\

Decker

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #126 on: May 20, 2008, 06:55:35 AM »
The fact that both humans and animals practice infanticide pretty much makes your theory that animal behavior normalizes human behavior patently absurd. 

The connection doesn't work Decker. 
I have an idea. 

Since you state that homosexuality is an obvious lifestyle choice, why don't you sit down with a squirrel, dog, whale and bird and have a roundtable discussion about the criteria they use to determine whether they choose, as part of their lifestyles, to be gay.

To choose, one has to be conscious of the options available to fulfill a purpose.  If animals are as capable as humans of making lifestyle choices, then you should have no problem eliciting that information in a discussion with them.

PS:  You are confusing "life style choice"  with aberrant behavior.

Dos Equis

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #127 on: May 20, 2008, 08:40:20 AM »
I have an idea. 

Since you state that homosexuality is an obvious lifestyle choice, why don't you sit down with a squirrel, dog, whale and bird and have a roundtable discussion about the criteria they use to determine whether they choose, as part of their lifestyles, to be gay.

To choose, one has to be conscious of the options available to fulfill a purpose.  If animals are as capable as humans of making lifestyle choices, then you should have no problem eliciting that information in a discussion with them.

PS:  You are confusing "life style choice"  with aberrant behavior.

I have a better idea.  Since you state that abnormal animal behavior makes the same behavior in humans normal, why don't you find a lawyer friend who does criminal defense and tell him or her the next time they defend a woman accused of killing her husband to use the praying mantis defense. 

Decker

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #128 on: May 20, 2008, 08:51:32 AM »
Beach Bum:  "homosexuality is an obvious lifestyle choice"

Decker: "Homosexuality is in the animal kingdom but animals cannot consciously choose to be homosexual b/c they lack the capacity to make that sort of sophisticated choice"

Beach Bum:  "So you're saying animal behavior normalizes human behavior"

Decker:  "What are you talking about and why are you changing the subject from "homosexuality is an obvious lifestyle choice" to "animal behavior normalizes human behavior"?

Dos Equis

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #129 on: May 20, 2008, 08:59:39 AM »
Beach Bum:  Homosexuality is an obvious lifestyle choice.  There is no scientific proof whatsoever that homosexuality is genetic.

Decker:  But teacher . . . I mean Beach Bum, look at the fact that animals engage in homosexual behavior.

Beach Bum:  The fact animals engage in abnormal behavior does not in any way establish that the same behavior in humans is normal.  For example, look at infanticide, which happens with both animals and humans. 

Decker:  [stammer, hedge, move goal posts] . . . Well. . . . I don't know what causes homosexuality, but I know it's not a lifestyle choice.  Now why don't I give you an absurd hypothetical . . . like go talk with animals.  Yes, Beach Bum, go talk with animals!   

Beach Bum:  [sighing, seeing the obvious signs of a person trying to save a ridiculous analogy]  Why don't you have a lawyer friend use the praying mantis defense.

[Decker and Beach Bum now exchange mock question and answer]

Decker

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #130 on: May 20, 2008, 09:25:45 AM »
Beach Bum:  Homosexuality is an obvious lifestyle choice.  There is no scientific proof whatsoever that homosexuality is genetic.

Decker:  But teacher . . . I mean Beach Bum, look at the fact that animals engage in homosexual behavior.

Beach Bum:  The fact animals engage in abnormal behavior does not in any way establish that the same behavior in humans is normal.  For example, look at infanticide, which happens with both animals and humans. 

Decker:  [stammer, hedge, move goal posts] . . . Well. . . . I don't know what causes homosexuality, but I know it's not a lifestyle choice.  Now why don't I give you an absurd hypothetical . . . like go talk with animals.  Yes, Beach Bum, go talk with animals!   

Beach Bum:  [sighing, seeing the obvious signs of a person trying to save a ridiculous analogy]  Why don't you have a lawyer friend use the praying mantis defense.

[Decker and Beach Bum now exchange mock question and answer]

I like you Beach Bum.  But you are a master at obfuscation.

You changed the subject from homosexuality as an "obvious lifestyle choice" to some ridiculous abstraction involving infanticide, animals and people.

You did that.  Just look over the past posts.

Back to the matter at hand.  Just answer me one question if you please:

If homosexuality is an "obvious lifestyle choice", do animals obviously choose to be homosexual?

youandme

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #131 on: May 20, 2008, 09:27:48 AM »
someone brought up transexuals, this thread was lost on page 1 haha

JBGRAY

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #132 on: May 20, 2008, 09:58:14 AM »
Yep!

Free the slaves.
Women and blacks can vote.
Gays and lesbians can marry.

Deal with it!  ;D

Sorry for the late response, but.....

You are correct.  I can and will deal with it.  I don't have to like it, as I believe things such as homosexuality should be kept to the dark and secret recesses of society......behind closed doors, and not in the open.  It's my opinion, and it's an opinion that the majority of the world's people share.  It's an opinion that isn't going to be changed, nor is it going to go away.  You can scream accusations of bigotry all day, but you can't stifle and silence millions on an everyday basis.  Tolerance goes both ways here. 

In addition, comparing the gay community's "plight" to what was once legalized slavery is weak and downright offensive.  The financially richest tier of people in the US as a group have no claim nor no basis on identifying and comparing themselves to the various plights of peoples within the US, past and present.   


BayGBM

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #133 on: May 20, 2008, 10:36:03 AM »
Sorry for the late response, but.....

You are correct.  I can and will deal with it.  I don't have to like it, as I believe things such as homosexuality should be kept to the dark and secret recesses of society......behind closed doors, and not in the open.  It's my opinion, and it's an opinion that the majority of the world's people share.  It's an opinion that isn't going to be changed, nor is it going to go away.  You can scream accusations of bigotry all day, but you can't stifle and silence millions on an everyday basis.  Tolerance goes both ways here. 

In addition, comparing the gay community's "plight" to what was once legalized slavery is weak and downright offensive.  The financially richest tier of people in the US as a group have no claim nor no basis on identifying and comparing themselves to the various plights of peoples within the US, past and present.   

Fortunately, Justice George on the CA Supreme Court disagrees with you.  It’s not a coincidence that a 68 year old judge who saw Jim Crow as a child invoked memories of that inequality in crafting his decision in the present case.

As has been said previously, the principle of equality enshrined in the Constitution is not (and must never be) subject to popular vote.  Alexis de Tocqueville observed in 1835, the ‘tyranny of the majority’ must always be checked by the courts.  Critics who decry ‘activist judges’ don’t appear to understand how American law works: the democratically expressed will of the people is always subject to judicial review for Constitutionality. Not only are Judges not abusing their power, this is exactly what their power is for!  I don't have to "stifle and silence millions on an everyday basis."  The courts have effectively done that and they will continue to do so as long as they are charged with ensuring equal justice under law.

I can perfectly understand why conservatives are so upset by this ruling though.  It is further proof that their philosophy is being consigned to history’s dustbin of bigotry.  No one likes to admit their increasing irrelevance.  I don’t suppose many people here have read the many pro-slavery arguments articulated throughout the first half the 19th century.  I have.  You all sound remarkably similar and equally irrelevant.

As for keeping homosexuality in the dark and secret recess of society, people like you used to say the same thing about the disabled (but that’s a whole other subject).  Fortunately, you don’t get to decide these things.

The future is about equality--in all its forms--for everyone; your philosophy has no place there.  Ta ta  :-*


Dos Equis

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #134 on: May 20, 2008, 10:46:21 AM »
I like you Beach Bum.  But you are a master at obfuscation.

You changed the subject from homosexuality as an "obvious lifestyle choice" to some ridiculous abstraction involving infanticide, animals and people.

You did that.  Just look over the past posts.

Back to the matter at hand.  Just answer me one question if you please:

If homosexuality is an "obvious lifestyle choice", do animals obviously choose to be homosexual?

I like you too Decker.  But you are a master at asking loading questions, asking questions based on a false premise, and changing the facts/scenario when the error of your viewpoints are highlighted.  

I didn't change the subject.  I'm not the one who brought up animals.  You are the one who brought up animals as a means of proving that behavior occurring in the animal kingdom somehow proves that same behavior in humans is normal.  That analogy makes no sense for the reasons I've already stated.  

Your last question is another example of a loaded question, etc.  The question itself is grounded on the assumption that humans and animals make conscious choices.  One of the primary distinctions between humans and animals is the ability to make lifestyle choices.  We have common sense.  They don't for the most part.  They rely on instinct.  We don't for the most part.  Some of their instincts involve abnormal behavior, like infanticide, like killing their mate after sex, like homosexual behavior.  Unless a person is insane, our abnormal behavior always involves a choice, like choosing to murder a child, like choosing to molest a child, like smoking a cigarette, like choosing who we have sex with, etc.    

But to answer your loaded question, of course not.  The reason animals have sex is to propagate their species.  They don't "choose" to engage in sex that will cause their species to die.  They no more "choose" to engage in homosexual sex than they "choose" to kill their children.  They engage in instinctual behavior, some of it normal, some of it abnormal.    

Since we're doing this absurd hypothetical thing, how about this:  do animals choose to have sex with their offspring?    


Decker

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #135 on: May 20, 2008, 12:26:21 PM »
Quote
I like you too Decker.  But you are a master at asking loading questions, asking questions based on a false premise, and changing the facts/scenario when the error of your viewpoints are highlighted. 

I didn't change the subject.  I'm not the one who brought up animals.  You are the one who brought up animals as a means of proving that behavior occurring in the animal kingdom somehow proves that same behavior in humans is normal.  That analogy makes no sense for the reasons I've already stated. 
If homosexuality is an obvious choice then animals must choose to be homosexuals b/c homosexuality occurs in the animal kingdom.  Therefore animals must share the same sophistication of thought that humans have in defining their existences.

Do you see how you are twisting that around and calling it:
Quote
Your last question is another example of a loaded question,


Your conclusion itself is grounded on the assumption that humans and animals make conscious choices.  

But if animals, as you pointed out, do not choose in the same way people 'choose' (see below) then there must be another explanation for living the gay lifestyle b/c it cannot be by choice.

Quote
.....

But to answer your loaded question, of course not.  The reason animals have sex is to propagate their species.  They don't "choose" to engage in sex that will cause their species to die.  They no more "choose" to engage in homosexual sex than they "choose" to kill their children.  They engage in instinctual behavior, some of it normal, some of it abnormal.   

Since we're doing this absurd hypothetical thing, how about this:  do animals choose to have sex with their offspring?   
You loaded the question with your conclusion my friend.  Animals do not choose the way humans choose b/c they cannot fathom the goals/consequences of their actions in choosing a lifestyle.  Incest aside, it seems that something else other than 'choice' is the factor in determining the behavior.




Dos Equis

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #136 on: May 20, 2008, 12:50:47 PM »
If homosexuality is an obvious choice then animals must choose to be homosexuals b/c homosexuality occurs in the animal kingdom.  Therefore animals must share the same sophistication of thought that humans have in defining their existences.

Do you see how you are twisting that around and calling it:  

Your conclusion itself is grounded on the assumption that humans and animals make conscious choices.  

But if animals, as you pointed out, do not choose in the same way people 'choose' (see below) then there must be another explanation for living the gay lifestyle b/c it cannot be by choice.
 You loaded the question with your conclusion my friend.  Animals do not choose the way humans choose b/c they cannot fathom the goals/consequences of their actions in choosing a lifestyle.  Incest aside, it seems that something else other than 'choice' is the factor in determining the behavior.





Animal behavior is instinctive, human behavior largely is not.  We choose, they don't. 

Given that we are repeating ourselves, I think we are at this point:


Straw Man

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #137 on: May 20, 2008, 01:20:33 PM »
this is more appropriate


Dos Equis

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #138 on: May 20, 2008, 01:24:40 PM »
Oh look.  He made a funny.  Very good straw man.   :)

I like this one for you:


Straw Man

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #139 on: May 20, 2008, 01:28:30 PM »
I love the irony of you calling me or anyone stupid given the fact that appear to be borderline retarded most of the time.

Dos Equis

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #140 on: May 20, 2008, 01:32:16 PM »
Yawn.  Boring.  Back to being a curmudgeon?  Make another funny pothead.  You're much more entertaining that way. 

Straw Man

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #141 on: May 20, 2008, 01:42:40 PM »
what is there left to say

anytime you're confronted with logic or your lack thereof you either ignore it, change the subject or start whining like a little bitch

that is why is pointless to try to have a discussion with you as an adult



Colossus_500

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #142 on: May 20, 2008, 01:49:50 PM »
That said God, loves all of his children and will give them the strength.  Im not worth one plug nickel more than any other human on this planet..(gay or not).......Each of us has different challenges to overcome.
Well said, War-Horse!  That He does.   :)

Decker

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #143 on: May 20, 2008, 01:51:35 PM »
Animal behavior is instinctive, human behavior largely is not.  We choose, they don't. 


Then how can homosexuality be a choice if two creatures that cannot choose anything turn out to be gay?

That's progress my friend.




Dos Equis

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #144 on: May 20, 2008, 03:36:27 PM »
what is there left to say

anytime you're confronted with logic or your lack thereof you either ignore it, change the subject or start whining like a little bitch

that is why is pointless to try to have a discussion with you as an adult




Well then quit trying to engage me fool.  How many times do I have to tell you that?  If you can't have an exchange without acting like a hypersensitive baby, and you can't handle my responses, quit trying to have discussions with me.  Very simple.  Maybe you should put a post-it on your computer or something.  Your memory sucks.  It's the ganja?   

Study: Even Infrequent Use of Marijuana Increases Risk of Psychosis by 40 Percent
Friday, July 27, 2007

LONDON —  Using marijuana seems to increase the chance of becoming psychotic, researchers report in an analysis of past research that reignites the issue of whether pot is dangerous.

The new review suggests that even infrequent use could raise the small but real risk of this serious mental illness by 40 percent.

. . . .

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,291043,00.html

calmus

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #145 on: May 20, 2008, 03:40:07 PM »
Well then quit trying to engage me fool.  How many times do I have to tell you that?  If you can't have an exchange without acting like a hypersensitive baby, and you can't handle my responses, quit trying to have discussions with me.  Very simple.  Maybe you should put a post-it on your computer or something.  Your memory sucks.  It's the ganja?   

Study: Even Infrequent Use of Marijuana Increases Risk of Psychosis by 40 Percent
Friday, July 27, 2007

LONDON —  Using marijuana seems to increase the chance of becoming psychotic, researchers report in an analysis of past research that reignites the issue of whether pot is dangerous.

The new review suggests that even infrequent use could raise the small but real risk of this serious mental illness by 40 percent.

. . . .

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,291043,00.html

ROFL. You're going to give yourself  a heart attack at this rate.

Straw Man

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #146 on: May 20, 2008, 07:58:11 PM »
Well then quit trying to engage me fool.  How many times do I have to tell you that?  If you can't have an exchange without acting like a hypersensitive baby, and you can't handle my responses, quit trying to have discussions with me.  Very simple.  Maybe you should put a post-it on your computer or something.  Your memory sucks.  It's the ganja?   

Study: Even Infrequent Use of Marijuana Increases Risk of Psychosis by 40 Percent
Friday, July 27, 2007

LONDON —  Using marijuana seems to increase the chance of becoming psychotic, researchers report in an analysis of past research that reignites the issue of whether pot is dangerous.

The new review suggests that even infrequent use could raise the small but real risk of this serious mental illness by 40 percent.

. . . .

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,291043,00.html

You need some new material

BayGBM

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #147 on: May 20, 2008, 08:36:32 PM »
http://community.nytimes.com/article/comments/2008/05/16/us/15cnd-marriage.html?s=3&pg=5

It's about time. I'm a heterosexual grandmother of three, so I have no horse in this race, but I passionately believe gays and lesbians should have the exact same right as me to marry. Adultery is a much greater threat to traditional marriage than gay marriage, but I don't see the church crowd trying to outlaw that. If the churches don't want to marry gay couples, well, don't. They can still say no. That's their choice, no one is forcing them to marry anyone they don't want to. This will simply allow gay people the God-given right to enjoy the same recognition as other loving couples. There's too much hate in the world to worry about who's loving who.

You go grandma!  :D

BayGBM

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #148 on: May 21, 2008, 07:49:07 AM »
California took a huge, important step towards equal rights for all Americans. Some of us need to compare this struggle to the days when interracial marriages were illegal.

Just last week, Mildred Jeter Loving, an African American woman who was banished from Virginia in the 1960's for marrying her white husband, passed away. She happened to be a supporter of gay/lesbian marriages.

Congratulations to those of you in California who now have the freedom you are entitled to as free American citizens. Just do not abuse or neglect the institution as so many heterosexuals do.


— StacyG, Northern NJ

Dos Equis

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Re: California Court Affirms Right to Gay Marriage
« Reply #149 on: May 21, 2008, 08:58:53 AM »
Texas Sen. John Cornyn: California gay marriage decision will spark push for national ban

04:51 PM CDT on Thursday, May 15, 2008
By TODD J. GILLMAN / The Dallas Morning News
tgillman@dallasnews.com

WASHINGTON – Thursday's California court ruling striking down that state's ban on gay marriage will spark a fresh push to add a nationwide ban to the U.S. Constitution, Texas Sen. John Cornyn said shortly after the ruling was announced.

"It's certainly surprising. Many of us thought that the efforts to overturn the tradition marriage laws would be confined just to Massachusetts," said Mr. Cornyn, a chief backer of a push to enact a constitutional ban, which failed in 2004.

The California Supreme Court issued a 4-3 ruling Thursday that overturned a voter-approved ban on gay marriage, finding that domestic partnerships laws are an inadequate substitute for allowing same-sex couples to enter into formal marriages.

Coming from the nation's biggest state, gay and lesbian advocates hailed the ruling as historic. But critics of same-sex marriage were dismayed, Mr. Cornyn among them.

He noted that during congressional debates several years ago, one argument used by opponents of a constitutional ban was that few states allowed such arrangements, making the drastic step premature.

The California development, he said, reopens that argument.

"I do expect it'll generate some more debate, and I'll be happy to contribute to it," said Mr. Cornyn, a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, adding that Thursday's ruling also unleashes a slew of questions about whether other states will be forced to recognize same-sex unions from California.

California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has twice vetoed legislation intended to allow same-sex couples to get married. He said Thursday that he would not support a Constitutional amendment meant to overturn the state high court ruling.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/051608dnnatcornynreax.10303c43f.html