Consciousness

[Butterbean]

As a believer I believe our consciousness = from God.

It would be interesting to hear some other views here on where consciousness originated please.

[Nordic Superman]

It's an evolutionary trait, developed as a survival tactic for an organic being (homo sapiens) which without it would fair negatively against the predatory animals that have existed during its existence.

Consciousness allows reflects of scenarios, how to deal with situations dynamically.

You might think animals do this, but most of their characteristics to deal with the environment and genetically programmed into their being.

That's that, thread over, please close it.

[Butterbean]

It's an evolutionary trait, developed as a survival tactic for an organic being (homo sapiens) which without it would fair negatively against the predatory animals that have existed during its existence.

Consciousness allows reflects of scenarios, how to deal with situations dynamically.

You might think animals do this, but most of their characteristics to deal with the environment and genetically programmed into their being.

That's that, thread over, please close it.

So are you saying that thoughts, feelings, beliefs, free will etc sprang up one day from purely physical matter? 

Also, are you saying that animals don't have consciousness?

[Nordic Superman]

So are you saying that thoughts, feelings, beliefs, free will etc sprang up one day from purely physical matter? 

Also, are you saying that animals don't have consciousness?

No, they developed through our evolutionary lineage. During our existence these abilities have provided a survival advantage for humans, including religion. Our building of societies/tribes is what provided the competitive arena which conciousness had to develop to the advance stage it has in humans.

Other examples of highly concious animals are groups of chimpanzees and pods of dolphins. Alternatively animals like ants are not aware they are in a huge group per say, their actions and behaviour is totally programmed in their DNA.

I'm saying animals are not concious in that they are not self aware (if at all) to the extent that humans are, they do not question their existance.

Do you believe your dog sits there contemplating its existence, wondering how great it would be to soar like and eagle?

[Butterbean]

I'm saying animals are not concious in that they are not self aware (if at all) to the extent that humans are, they do not question their existance.

I believe that animals are concious but I agree w/not to the extent that humans are

No, they developed through our evolutionary lineage.

So are you saying you believe that life began w/o consciousness and didn't have consciousness for many years? 

[ToxicAvenger]

As a believer I believe our consciousness = from God.

It would be interesting to hear some other views here on where consciousness originated please.

http://www.dhushara.com/book/quantcos/penrose/penr.htm

penrose ws a very respectable physicist

[Nordic Superman]

I believe that animals are concious but I agree w/not to the extent that humans are

So are you saying you believe that life began w/o consciousness and didn't have consciousness for many years?

Are you implying that the most basic animal lifeforms have conciousness? I.E. do you believe a starfish has conciousness?

Yes, that's what I believe, and by many years we're talking millions.

[Decker]

Every living thing has consciousness.  The old saw of human consciousness of being conscious is what separates us from a conscious sponge or bird.

[Butterbean]

Are you implying that the most basic animal lifeforms have conciousness? I.E. do you believe a starfish has conciousness?

Yes

Yes, that's what I believe, and by many years we're talking millions.

OK thanks.  So you think that consciousness somehow developed.  But from what?  Out of living matter?  One is material and one is immaterial - aren't they 2 completely different things?  If so, from where does the immaterial conscious come?

Every living thing has consciousness.  The old saw of human consciousness of being conscious is what separates us from a conscious sponge or bird.

Decker do you think trees and plants have consciousness or did you mean mainly animals, humans, fish, birds etc?

[columbusdude82]

Stella, consciousness is a really tough question. Lots and lots of books have been written about it in the philosophy/psychology/language/neuroscience/evolutionary psychology/... areas.

For example, back around 1990, Daniel Dennett wrote a book called "Consciousness Explained."

A couple years ago, he wrote an article titled "Are We Explaining Consciousness?"

[Butterbean]

Stella, consciousness is a really tough question. Lots and lots of books have been written about it in the philosophy/psychology/language/neuroscience/evolutionary psychology/... areas.

For example, back around 1990, Daniel Dennett wrote a book called "Consciousness Explained."

A couple years ago, he wrote an article titled "Are We Explaining Consciousness?"

hehehe!



coldude, do you have any thoughts re: how consciousness originated?

[columbusdude82]

hehehe!



coldude, do you have any thoughts re: how consciousness originated?

Let's side aside the facts that have trouble defining consciousness, and deciding what is or isn't conscious... (Are dogs conscious? Ants? jellyfish? fly-trapping plants? ...)

The answer lies without a doubt in the evolution of the brain. I define consciousness as the ability of the brain to create a model of the world including itself, and to simulate models of the world of what might be or might have been if... (This definition has its problems, but let that slide for now.)

Obviously, then, there are levels of consciousness in the animal kingdom, with us at the top. Our brains can model the world around us, model their role in the world, think of what might happen if we do this or what else might happen if we do that, etc. They have the ability to deal with symbols: drawings, words, sounds, substituting for the real thing.

My brief answer: consciousness is a progressive development in the evolution of the brain, which expanded both in terms of size and computing capacity over the eons.

That's the best I can do for you right now, Stella

[Deicide]

hehehe!



coldude, do you have any thoughts re: how consciousness originated?

What is your evidence for mind/body dualism? What is the evidence that leads you to believe that consciousness is a lump of magical wonder stuff?

[Deicide]

Let's side aside the facts that have trouble defining consciousness, and deciding what is or isn't conscious... (Are dogs conscious? Ants? jellyfish? fly-trapping plants? ...)

The answer lies without a doubt in the evolution of the brain. I define consciousness as the ability of the brain to create a model of the world including itself, and to simulate models of the world of what might be or might have been if... (This definition has its problems, but let that slide for now.)

Obviously, then, there are levels of consciousness in the animal kingdom, with us at the top. Our brains can model the world around us, model their role in the world, think of what might happen if we do this or what else might happen if we do that, etc. They have the ability to deal with symbols: drawings, words, sounds, substituting for the real thing.

My brief answer: consciousness is a progressive development in the evolution of the brain, which expanded both in terms of size and computing capacity over the eons.

That's the best I can do for you right now, Stella

Boy Columbus Dude, that sure sounds complicated; I prefer the 'god with magic powers' theory....

[Nordic Superman]

Every living thing has consciousness.  The old saw of human consciousness of being conscious is what separates us from a conscious sponge or bird.

This is absolutely false. Ants, starfish, sponges and other such animals are NOT conscious.

Sorry to spoil your hippy delusions, you can stop talking to your garden plants now.

[columbusdude82]

Boy Columbus Dude, that sure sounds complicated; I prefer the 'god with magic powers' theory....

OK, fundy nutcase

[Colossus_500]

Ro,

I think this quote speaks volumes to the mindset that you and I hold:

"The torments of an aroused conscience are symptoms of spiritual vitality for which a wise man will give thanks on bended knees; but they are useless and worse than useless unless they drive him, in his desperation, to the fountain open for all sin and for all uncleanness."
      -- F.W. Boreham

[Deicide]

OK, fundy nutcase

Well, as you know I don't believe in evolution; it is clear from the Bible that god used his magic powers to zap everything into existence just as it is.

[columbusdude82]

Well, as you know I don't believe in evolution; it is clear from the Bible that god used his magic powers to zap everything into existence just as it is.

Glad to hear that bro. It brings me great joy to learn that the good Christian folk on here finally managed to bring even a lowly sinning filthy atheist like you to Jesus.

Praise the Lord!!!

[Deicide]

Glad to hear that bro. It brings me great joy to learn that the good Christian folk on here finally managed to bring even a lowly sinning filthy atheist like you to Jesus.

Praise the Lord!!!

The Lord truly works in mysterious ways; one day I woke up and realised the Jesus is the son of god....and that Harvard, Oxford and MIT are deliberately deceiving the world with their evil theory called evolution.

[Decker]

Yes

OK thanks.  So you think that consciousness somehow developed.  But from what?  Out of living matter?  One is material and one is immaterial - aren't they 2 completely different things?  If so, from where does the immaterial conscious come?
Decker do you think trees and plants have consciousness or did you mean mainly animals, humans, fish, birds etc?

Every living thing has some degree of awareness. Plants included.

[Decker]

This is absolutely false. Ants, starfish, sponges and other such animals are NOT conscious.

Sorry to spoil your hippy delusions, you can stop talking to your garden plants now.

Hippy delusion?  Read any existential philosopher.

Isn't consciousness another term for awareness?

So your criticism makes no sense.

Or aren't ants aware of the crumbs they pick up off the ground? 

What does consciousness mean to you that you think you're an authority on the matter?

Where I'm from, it's still a pretty big mystery.

[Nordic Superman]

Hippy delusion?  Read any existential philosopher.

Isn't consciousness another term for awareness?

So your criticism makes no sense.

Or aren't ants aware of the crumbs they pick up off the ground? 

What does consciousness mean to you that you think you're an authority on the matter?

Where I'm from, it's still a pretty big mystery.

A plant or primitive animal isn't aware of anything, it just has a nervous system that reactions to stimulants like touch, vibrations or chemicals.

Philosophy has no ground to compete with scientific knowledge. It's simply scientific fact that the underdeveloped nervous system (or complete lack of one i.e. plants) cannot possibly provide the animal with a consciousness.

Don't apply your human thought process with that of the behaviour of animals, especially primitive ones like starfish .

Prove me wrong.

[columbusdude82]

A plant or primitive animal isn't aware of anything, it just has a nervous system that reactions to stimulants like touch, vibrations or chemicals.

Philosophy has no ground to compete with scientific knowledge. It's simply scientific fact that the underdeveloped nervous system (or complete lack of one i.e. plants) cannot possibly provide the animal with a consciousness.

Don't apply your human thought process with that of the behaviour of animals, especially primitive ones like starfish .

Prove me wrong.

I think many evolutionary biologists would be outraged to hear you call starfish primitive!!!!!!!

[Decker]

A plant or primitive animal isn't aware of anything, it just has a nervous system that reactions to stimulants like touch, vibrations or chemicals.

Philosophy has no ground to compete with scientific knowledge. It's simply scientific fact that the underdeveloped nervous system (or complete lack of one i.e. plants) cannot possibly provide the animal with a consciousness.

Don't apply your human thought process with that of the behaviour of animals, especially primitive ones like starfish .

Prove me wrong.

What exactly do you think consciousness is? 

You've proven nothing. You haven't defined what you mean by consciousness yet you criticize my fundamental description of it as awareness as wrong.

You argue nothing yet you criticize me and in a rather snotty manner I might add.