Consciousness

[Deedee]

How do people explain animals, dogs and cats for instance, who have managed to find their way home when lost 100s of miles away?  They aren't on some predisposed genetic migration route. What about people who have very real psychic experiences? Aren't there at least a few different states of consciousness, some of which we aren't even aware?

[Nordic Superman]

How do people explain animals, dogs and cats for instance, who have managed to find their way home when lost 100s of miles away? They aren't on some predisposed genetic migration route.

They can keep navigation plans in their brains via reference points. This is an ability in recognition.

What about people who have very real psychic experiences?

Very real psychic experiences simply do not and cannot exist in my opinion. I can't possibly comprehend thinking like you and even believe it for a SECOND.

Aren't there at least a few different states of consciousness, some of which we aren't even aware?

For example?

[Deedee]

They can keep navigation plans in their brains via reference points. This is an ability in recognition.

I'm talking about animals that were driven long distances along some highway... then found their way home taking the long detour.

Very real psychic experiences simply do not and cannot exist in my opinion. I can't possibly comprehend thinking like you and even believe it for a SECOND.

Lol, well I'm not some crystal worshiping, caftan wearing, new ager, but these experiences are documented.  Perhaps there is some scientific explanation. People have been trying, without success, to find them.

How do you explain people having terrible premonitions that become realized, for instance?

For example?

Well, I'm thinking of problem solving, or creative inspiration during dream sleep, that sort of thing. When the right and left brain seem to work better together.

[Nordic Superman]

I'm talking about animals that were driven long distances along some highway... then found their way home taking the long detour.

I think (not 100% sure) that a lot of animals have navigation devises beyond that of our own. Eyesight, hearing are beyond that of human comprehension. Some animals also have tracking which is aided by the magnetism of the earth allowing them to formulate grids in their brain which can aid in finding a destination, my only knowledge of this is in newts and other amphibians, I can't say dogs/cats have this ability, they might have but I doubt it.

Lol, well I'm not some crystal worshiping, caftan wearing, new ager, but these experiences are documented.  Perhaps there is some scientific explanation. People have been trying, without success, to find them.

How do you explain people having terrible premonitions that become realized, for instance?

They might be documented but I believe 100% they can be explained scientifically.

Premonitions are a collection of coincidences plus other inputs related to the event which the person might pick up on. This is my opinion and I believe it to be 100% true. People cannot see into the future by magical means. The human brain is simply a great piece of equipment for situation analysis and predicting the outcome of events which may lie into the future. Mix this with some coincidence and there you have your explanation.

Well, I'm thinking of problem solving, or creative inspiration during dream sleep, that sort of thing. When the right and left brain seem to work better together.

Research the unconscious mind. The mind when YOU are not in control of your own thoughts. Sleep is a special time for the brain to make sense and process the information it has acquired on its daily routine.

[wavelength]

Und wo bleibt denn Theologie?

Theology (like spiritual scripture in general) is the attempt of explaining the divine, something that is principally beyond the comprehension of the thinking mind. Since it still uses the same tools as philosophy, it unfortunally must always remain a bad translation of the truth, open to false interpretation.

[wavelength]

Like I said, I'm not here to provide you with my definitions, which quite clearly collide with your own on topics which can't possibly be definitively defined. From your perspective and understanding of philosophy my statements might very well be seen as misunderstood, this is because we're different wavelengths.

My point was that it is just not true that philosophy does not deal with the natural world (which is what you said). Im sorry but this is not open to discussion, it is a fact. If your statements are based on the assumption that scientists are serious observers of the "natural world" while philosophers are LSD consuming junkies who phantasize about supernatural nonsense, the statements cannot be taken seriously.

For example, I'm very well aware of what science is and sets out to do. But, for me, my belief in science provides factual answers. Evolution for example to me isn't just a theory, I believe it as fact.

Then it seems like you misunderstood the purpose of science. Science does not provide you with anything you could believe in or not. It provides you with scientific theories applied to scientific models of the world. Evolution e.g. is a scientific theory about the development of the biological aspects of life. It could very well be that new theories overthrow evolution theory, just like it happened in every other scientific field. But the main point is that whatever scientific theory is widely accepted at a certain point in time, it remains just that. I have no problem with the "fact" that biologically, my ancestors are apes. But what you seem to mean by "fact" is that there is nothing more to a human being than his biology. That's a "fact" that cannot be provided by science.

I don't believe in a soul, any human representation of a soul is just the conscious mind at work, giving the human a place in its environment.

That's your choice of course. A choice however, that cannot be derived from science either.

Are you a deist?

Such categories stem from people who don't understand anything about spirituality. As soon as one tries to assign attributes to the divine and not understand that these attributes can only be pointers but never the literal truth, he is already on the wrong path.

[Deedee]

I think (not 100% sure) that a lot of animals have navigation devises beyond that of our own. Eyesight, hearing are beyond that of human comprehension. Some animals also have tracking which is aided by the magnetism of

I think you're probably right, but that implies a certain type of inexplicable consciousness, doesn't it? It also doesn't explain the tremendous drive these animals have to be rejoined with their owners, rather than make the best of it with new ones. Can't that imply some connectivity beyond instinct, with their beloved human companions?

They might be documented but I believe 100% they can be explained scientifically.

Premonitions are a collection of coincidences plus other inputs related to the event which the person might pick up on. This is my opinion and I believe it to be 100% true. People cannot see into the future by magical means. The human brain is simply a great piece of equipment for situation analysis and predicting the outcome of events which may lie into the future. Mix this with some coincidence and there you have your explanation.

At the risk of sounding like a complete ass, here are some examples.  I've told friends they were pregnant before they realized it themselves. I've also been overwhelmed with sudden feelings of sadness, with very clear perceptions that the person I'm talking to was going to die.  I believe when people are sick with cancer, or are pregnant, their hormonal changes can be picked up by people who may be extra-sensitive, on a subconscious level, to smell.  But that does imply some level of consciousness that is beyond the "thinking" mind.

I've also, while driving around mindlessly, been overwhelmed with the urge to go miles out of my way to get to someone's house, knowing something was wrong... to arrive and find their dog half dead in the driveway after being hit by a car.  I don't think these experiences are magical or coincidental, how can they be... but do believe in some subconscious hive connectivity that ties all living things together. Perhaps it's simply energy floating around that people can sense and interpret. That to me is "God."  And I know I sound like an ass,  but people have these experiences all the time.

Research the unconscious mind. The mind when YOU are not in control of your own thoughts. Sleep is a special time for the brain to make sense and process the information it has acquired on its daily routine.

Yes, but that's a layer of consciousness, that is beyond the "thinking" mind. Perhaps there are other layers we aren't really aware of... 

[The ChemistV2]

I think you're probably right, but that implies a certain type of inexplicable consciousness, doesn't it? It also doesn't explain the tremendous drive these animals have to be rejoined with their owners, rather than make the best of it with new ones. Can't that imply some connectivity beyond instinct, with their beloved human companions?

At the risk of sounding like a complete ass, here are some examples.  I've told friends they were pregnant before they realized it themselves. I've also been overwhelmed with sudden feelings of sadness, with very clear perceptions that the person I'm talking to was going to die.  I believe when people are sick with cancer, or are pregnant, their hormonal changes can be picked up by people who may be extra-sensitive, on a subconscious level, to smell.  But that does imply some level of consciousness that is beyond the "thinking" mind.

I've also, while driving around mindlessly, been overwhelmed with the urge to go miles out of my way to get to someone's house, knowing something was wrong... to arrive and find their dog half dead in the driveway after being hit by a car.  I don't think these experiences are magical or coincidental, how can they be... but do believe in some subconscious hive connectivity that ties all living things together. Perhaps it's simply energy floating around that people can sense and interpret. That to me is "God."  And I know I sound like an ass,  but people have these experiences all the time.

Yes, but that's a layer of consciousness, that is beyond the "thinking" mind. Perhaps there are other layers we aren't really aware of... 

There are many documented accounts of Psychic phenomena on record. There are also people that have the ability to "remote View", which means see and describe locations that are thousands of miles away. I have personally been able to get an EVP(electronic voice phenomena) captured on tape of the voice of a close friend who had benn dead for several months, actually responding to me..no bullshit or trickery. Even her family members verified it was her voice on the tape. Until that moment (a few months back), I had doubted the existence of consciousness surviving death. I am not religious but I believe science will eventually prove some of these phenomenas so they aren't relegated to being just people who are considered nutcases. I know I will get flamed by people who will disbelieve what i wrote about the EVP, but there are books by credible people who have heard hundreds of them.  So, I won't post back trying to defend my beliefs or worry that I will be ridiculed, just wanted to share this. Definitely couldn't care if anyone believes me or not.

[Nordic Superman]

My point was that it is just not true that philosophy does not deal with the natural world (which is what you said). Im sorry but this is not open to discussion, it is a fact. If your statements are based on the assumption that scientists are serious observers of the "natural world" while philosophers are LSD consuming junkies who phantasize about supernatural nonsense, the statements cannot be taken seriously.

Then it seems like you misunderstood the purpose of science. Science does not provide you with anything you could believe in or not. It provides you with scientific theories applied to scientific models of the world. Evolution e.g. is a scientific theory about the development of the biological aspects of life. It could very well be that new theories overthrow evolution theory, just like it happened in every other scientific field. But the main point is that whatever scientific theory is widely accepted at a certain point in time, it remains just that. I have no problem with the "fact" that biologically, my ancestors are apes. But what you seem to mean by "fact" is that there is nothing more to a human being than his biology. That's a "fact" that cannot be provided by science.

That's your choice of course. A choice however, that cannot be derived from science either.

Such categories stem from people who don't understand anything about spirituality. As soon as one tries to assign attributes to the divine and not understand that these attributes can only be pointers but never the literal truth, he is already on the wrong path.

By natural world I meant physical experiential knowledge. This I don't think philosophy can deal in directly. Sure philosophy does in fact have the scope of the world, the universe and our place in it.

The mistake is yours. Science does provide something tangible to believe in. You can be as unambiguous with your definitions of science as you like.

Science is to process to creating understanding or improve understanding in the physical world with observable evidence as the basis.

So, with this, I can say that my believe in science in itself is not up for debate and most certainly not a misunderstanding no matter how pretentious you chose in being pressing this matter.

At the risk of sounding like a complete ass, here are some examples.  I've told friends they were pregnant before they realized it themselves. I've also been overwhelmed with sudden feelings of sadness, with very clear perceptions that the person I'm talking to was going to die.  I believe when people are sick with cancer, or are pregnant, their hormonal changes can be picked up by people who may be extra-sensitive, on a subconscious level, to smell.  But that does imply some level of consciousness that is beyond the "thinking" mind.

I've also, while driving around mindlessly, been overwhelmed with the urge to go miles out of my way to get to someone's house, knowing something was wrong... to arrive and find their dog half dead in the driveway after being hit by a car.  I don't think these experiences are magical or coincidental, how can they be... but do believe in some subconscious hive connectivity that ties all living things together. Perhaps it's simply energy floating around that people can sense and interpret. That to me is "God."  And I know I sound like an ass,  but people have these experiences all the time.

The hormone thing is more like a chemical feedback mechanism, urges felt because you subconsciously think someone looks/behaves ill. Of course your guess is as good as mine, I know nothing about that topic, and I certainly have no answer the dead dog lol

There are many documented accounts of Psychic phenomena on record. There are also people that have the ability to "remote View", which means see and describe locations that are thousands of miles away. I have personally been able to get an EVP(electronic voice phenomena) captured on tape of the voice of a close friend who had benn dead for several months, actually responding to me..no bullshit or trickery. Even her family members verified it was her voice on the tape. Until that moment (a few months back), I had doubted the existence of consciousness surviving death. I am not religious but I believe science will eventually prove some of these phenomenas so they aren't relegated to being just people who are considered nutcases. I know I will get flamed by people who will disbelieve what i wrote about the EVP, but there are books by credible people who have heard hundreds of them.  So, I won't post back trying to defend my beliefs or worry that I will be ridiculed, just wanted to share this. Definitely couldn't care if anyone believes me or not.

You see the EVP info is just something I can't possibly believe in.

Most of me would say they heard what they wanted to hear.

[Deicide]

How do people explain animals, dogs and cats for instance, who have managed to find their way home when lost 100s of miles away?  They aren't on some predisposed genetic migration route. What about people who have very real psychic experiences? Aren't there at least a few different states of consciousness, some of which we aren't even aware?

None of which is an indication that consciousness arises from a lump of magical wonder stuff as many here like to claim.

[Deicide]

From creationism to new age magic powers, the fun never stops here.

[The ChemistV2]

Some on here seem to have the worldview that if something can not be measured or detected by our current scientific methods, than it can not exist. That would also mean that they believe that our current state of scientific technology has progressed as far as it will go. If you were to travel back 200 years and attempt to explain to that era's scientists what a television is, you would be met with ridicule. "Well fellows, there is going to be a device that will transmit invisible signals, energy waves if you will..now you won't be able to see them or hear them even though they will be passing right around you. Then we will have this other device, kinda like a box and it will be able to take that signal and project it on a screen and these invisible waves will become pictures with sound and you will be able to see people talking and moving.." It would be beyond their comprehension.  All the people that scoffed at Jules Verne's notion(that he wrote in the late 1800's) about a rocket going to the moon, now seem close minded and foolish.  Already there has been studies in Quantam Physics that suggest consciousness can influence matter even down to subatomic particles. There are actual films of individuals who have moved objects with their minds. Saying that science has come as far as it's going to go and that any phenomena that doesn't have a current valid scientific explanation can't exist, is a shortsighted viewpoint. How do you know for a fact that the brain isn't capable of transmitting and receiving energy? Why.. because most people can't do it or even have the belief that it's possible? Maybe several years down the line science will have progressed to the point where acceptance of psychic phenomena will be widely held and easily quantified. Nothing wrong with skepticism, but to outright reject the notion when even police have successfully used psychics, seems close minded.

[Deicide]

Some on here seem to have the worldview that if something can not be measured or detected by our current scientific methods, than it can not exist. That would also mean that they believe that our current state of scientific technology has progressed as far as it will go. If you were to travel back 200 years and attempt to explain to that era's scientists what a television is, you would be met with ridicule. "Well fellows, there is going to be a device that will transmit invisible signals, energy waves if you will..now you won't be able to see them or hear them even though they will be passing right around you. Then we will have this other device, kinda like a box and it will be able to take that signal and project it on a screen and these invisible waves will become pictures with sound and you will be able to see people talking and moving.." It would be beyond their comprehension.  All the people that scoffed at Jules Verne's notion(that he wrote in the late 1800's) about a rocket going to the moon, now seem close minded and foolish.  Already there has been studies in Quantam Physics that suggest consciousness can influence matter even down to subatomic particles. There are actual films of individuals who have moved objects with their minds. Saying that science has come as far as it's going to go and that any phenomena that doesn't have a current valid scientific explanation can't exist, is a shortsighted viewpoint. How do you know for a fact that the brain isn't capable of transmitting and receiving energy? Why.. because most people can't do it or even have the belief that it's possible? Maybe several years down the line science will have progressed to the point where acceptance of psychic phenomena will be widely held and easily quantified. Nothing wrong with skepticism, but to outright reject the notion when even police have successfully used psychics, seems close minded.

Nothing to do with magic powers or god though...

[candidizzle]

worship the god within yourself !

[Deedee]

Some on here seem to have the worldview that if something can not be measured or detected by our current scientific methods, than it can not exist. That would also mean that they believe that our current state of scientific technology has progressed as far as it will go. If you were to travel back 200 years and attempt to explain to that era's scientists what a television is, you would be met with ridicule. "Well fellows, there is going to be a device that will transmit invisible signals, energy waves if you will..now you won't be able to see them or hear them even though they will be passing right around you. Then we will have this other device, kinda like a box and it will be able to take that signal and project it on a screen and these invisible waves will become pictures with sound and you will be able to see people talking and moving.." It would be beyond their comprehension.  All the people that scoffed at Jules Verne's notion(that he wrote in the late 1800's) about a rocket going to the moon, now seem close minded and foolish.  Already there has been studies in Quantam Physics that suggest consciousness can influence matter even down to subatomic particles. There are actual films of individuals who have moved objects with their minds. Saying that science has come as far as it's going to go and that any phenomena that doesn't have a current valid scientific explanation can't exist, is a shortsighted viewpoint. How do you know for a fact that the brain isn't capable of transmitting and receiving energy? Why.. because most people can't do it or even have the belief that it's possible? Maybe several years down the line science will have progressed to the point where acceptance of psychic phenomena will be widely held and easily quantified. Nothing wrong with skepticism, but to outright reject the notion when even police have successfully used psychics, seems close minded.

You put my thoughts into words exactly!    Even 40 years ago, I doubt many people could have envisioned the lives we have today.  Would be so incredible to know what science will have discovered about the brain and it's thus far hidden layers of consciousness 100 years from now.

[Deedee]

None of which is an indication that consciousness arises from a lump of magical wonder stuff as many here like to claim.

You're so strict Deicide.    We were taking a slight tangent... nothing to do with the Judeo-Christian god, or any diety, really. Just musing about the mysteries of the brain. 

[wavelength]

By natural world I meant physical experiential knowledge. This I don't think philosophy can deal in directly. Sure philosophy does in fact have the scope of the world, the universe and our place in it.

If by "natural world", you mean "physical (as in scientific) aspects of the world", that's different. I just pointed it out since scientists often make the mistake of equating the two, leaving philosophy to deal with some "supernatural" nonsense (see your LSD remark).

The mistake is yours. Science does provide something tangible to believe in. You can be as unambiguous with your definitions of science as you like. Science is to process to creating understanding or improve understanding in the physical world with observable evidence as the basis. So, with this, I can say that my believe in science in itself is not up for debate and most certainly not a misunderstanding no matter how pretentious you chose in being pressing this matter.

Science is defined by it's method and language for describing the world. The method is abstracting the world into scientific models and then formulating scientific theories within these models, using mostly mathematics as the language. These theories are then tested via scientific experiments. As long as you are operating within this framework (aka being a scientist), there is no room for believe. You are simply following theses rules and hopefully are able to formulate long-lasting theories. There is also no need for believing in a certain scientific theory, since it holds true automatically until disproven by experiment. So if you say you believe in evolution, it can only mean that you follow the rules of science to accept its validity until disproven. Everything else would actually go against the rules of science, e.g. believing in a theory although it has already been disproven.

What you could e.g. believe in is that the applications of science improve our world. Or you can believe that a certain scientific theory will arise that describes scientific phenomena not covered yet by current theories. What exactly do you mean when you say you believe in it?

[Nordic Superman]

Science is defined by it's method and language for describing the world. The method is abstracting the world into scientific models and then formulating scientific theories within these models, using mostly mathematics as the language. These theories are then tested via scientific experiments. As long as you are operating within this framework (aka being a scientist), there is no room for believe. You are simply following theses rules and hopefully are able to formulate long-lasting theories. There is also no need for believing in a certain scientific theory, since it holds true automatically until disproven by experiment. So if you say you believe in evolution, it can only mean that you follow the rules of science to accept its validity until disproven. Everything else would actually go against the rules of science, e.g. believing in a theory although it has already been disproven.

You definition is certainly truthful, although I think the statement about scientific statements being automatically true until disproved is not. Unless I've mis-interpreted you?

What you could e.g. believe in is that the applications of science improve our world. Or you can believe that a certain scientific theory will arise that describes scientific phenomena not covered yet by current theories. What exactly do you mean when you say you believe in it?

You've picked a good point here, my abilities in explaining exactly what I mean clearly leave a lot to be desired.

[wavelength]

You definition is certainly truthful, although I think the statement about scientific statements being automatically true until disproved is not. Unless I've mis-interpreted you?

You've picked a good point here, my abilities in explaining exactly what I mean clearly leave a lot to be desired.

When the effects, a scientifc theory should have on the scientifically observable world, have been verified via experiment, the theory is generally accepted as valid. Usually, two independent sources must verify the experiment, but other than that, the theory must be accepted. Concurrent (competing) theories can only arise, if they all match previoulsy done experiments and would only differ in effect not yet observable by experiment (resp. distinguishable in regard to matching one or the other theory). Additionally, most scientific theories have certain boundaries (e.g. theory of relativity vs. quantum physics).

The reason why I'm interested in statements such as "I believe in science" is that what is usually meant is "I believe in science rather than religion or God". The misconception IMO is that there is such a competition between the two believes. This misconception is the reason for all the fights going on between e.g. creationists and scientific positivists, as can be perfectly observed on this board.

[Deicide]

When the effects, a scientifc theory should have on the scientifically observable world, have been verified via experiment, the theory is generally accepted as valid. Usually, two independent sources must verify the experiment, but other than that, the theory must be accepted. Concurrent (competing) theories can only arise, if they all match previoulsy done experiments and would only differ in effect not yet observable by experiment (resp. distinguishable in regard to matching one or the other theory). Additionally, most scientific theories have certain boundaries (e.g. theory of relativity vs. quantum physics).

The reason why I'm interested in statements such as "I believe in science" is that what is usually meant is "I believe in science rather than religion or God". The misconception IMO is that there is such a competition between the two believes. This misconception is the reason for all the fights going on between e.g. creationists and scientific positivists, as can be perfectly observed on this board.

Nur Du, Wellenlaenge, hast den wahren Weg gefunden.

[wavelength]

Nur Du, Wellenlaenge, hast den wahren Weg gefunden.

("Only you, wavelength, have found the right path.")

You also seem to be pretty confident in your views. 
I'm of course always only expressing my opinions. I'm not out to offend anybody.

And no doubt, much greater minds than me (including many 'religious' thinkers) have already said what I say here. Nothing that will be posted on this board is in any way original, you can be sure of that.

I think it would be great if the focus of attention would actually be on how to find "the right path" instead of bickering about illusionary conflicts.

[Deicide]

("Only you, wavelength, have found the right path.")

You also seem to be pretty confident in your views. 
I'm of course always only expressing my opinions. I'm not out to offend anybody.

And no doubt, much greater minds than me (including many 'religious' thinkers) have already said what I say here. Nothing that will be posted on this board is in any way original, you can be sure of that.

I think it would be great if the focus of attention would actually be on how to find "the right path" instead of bickering about illusionary conflicts.

Nichts von Illusion hier...

[wavelength]

Nichts von Illusion hier...

Oops, I meant to say "imaginary".