Author Topic: Nice Richard Dawkins Quote: why gods are so improbable....  (Read 9230 times)

Deedee

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5067
  • They sicken of the calm, who knew the storm.
Re: Nice Richard Dawkins Quote: why gods are so improbable....
« Reply #50 on: May 28, 2008, 09:45:22 AM »

Why?  What's the difference between aborting a baby at three or four months versus five months?

It's my personal opinion Beach, and I'm no expert.  I do think that, unless you're Polish and have to raise money to travel to Germany, if you were seriously desperate you'd take care of your problem within two months.  Waiting five months implies that you have serious qualms, to me. Also, I think there is difference between a potential life that is the size of pinprick, and one that is starting to form into a human.

15% of potential life is spontaneously ejected, without the woman even knowing about it, and flushed down the toilet.  :-\  Sounds crass, but it's true. What's the difference?

Preciousness of life is also relative.  Babies are killed in Iraq.  Their lives are precious, true, but not THAT precious. And, if you had to sacrifice one of your children so that 1.3 million potential lives currently the size of a pinprick could live, would you do it? No, probably not.  You would probably sacrifice your own life for that of any one of your children because their lives are more precious to you than your own.  And so on.  And I believe that if there were suddenly mass food shortages, most anti-choice people would suddenly suspend their belief in "all life" is precious and gladly sacrifice the 1.3 million unborn each year, so that their own toddlers could eat.   

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Nice Richard Dawkins Quote: why gods are so improbable....
« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2008, 10:11:58 AM »
It's my personal opinion Beach, and I'm no expert.  I do think that, unless you're Polish and have to raise money to travel to Germany, if you were seriously desperate you'd take care of your problem within two months.  Waiting five months implies that you have serious qualms, to me. Also, I think there is difference between a potential life that is the size of pinprick, and one that is starting to form into a human.

I can agree with that, a person who has lived with the pregnancy for 5 months and not taken action to end it has implied they have accepted responsibility for their pregnancy.

Are you against abortion in all cases: rape, incest, etc...

Colossus_500

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3993
  • Psalm 139
Re: Nice Richard Dawkins Quote: why gods are so improbable....
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2008, 10:31:05 AM »
Puddles, Rivers, and Waterfalls
Jill Carattini
from rzim.org

In his book River Out of Eden, Oxford scientist Richard Dawkins explains, "The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference."(1) In a similar vein, Dawkins praises the humorous rejoinder of Douglas Adams to arguments that claim an apparent order and purpose in the universe. Writes Dawkins, "To illustrate the vain conceit that the universe must be somehow preordained for us because we are so well suited to live in it, [Adams] mimed a wonderfully funny imitation of a puddle of water, fitting itself snugly into a depression in the ground, the depression uncannily being exactly the same shape as the puddle."(2) Their claim is clear: Humanity has adapted to a blind and indifferent universe like water to the shape of its container. It is perhaps a claim that at times lingers suggestively in the desolate places of life and mind.

Ernest Gordon, too, may have at one time agreed. An officer of the British army during the Second World War, he was captured by the Japanese while at sea. At the age of 24, he was sent to work in the prison camp that would be constructing the Burma-Siam railroad.

For every mile of track, 393 men are said to have died. Wearing nothing but loincloths, they worked for hours in scorching temperatures, chopping their way through tangled jungles. Those who paused out of exhaustion were beaten to death by guards. Treated like animals, the prisoners became themselves like beasts trying to survive. Adapting to their harsh captivity, theft was as rampant as disease among them. Gordon himself eventually became so weak from illness that he was removed from the common camp and placed in the Death House. He describes his purposeless existence in that cruel and indifferent setting: "I was a prisoner of war, lying among the dead, waiting for the bodies to be carried away so that I might have more room."(3)

Each night the Japanese guards would count the work tools before anyone was permitted to return to camp. One evening, when a shovel was found to be missing, a guard shouted relentlessly that the guilty man must present himself. When no one responded, he ordered callously, "All die! All die!" At this, a young man stepped forward, confessing to the theft, and was immediately killed before them.

The railroad prison camp by the River Kwai was a place where many could have observed in horror that “the universe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no God watching over those in dire need of hope." Like water conforming to the shape of its container, the captured men became like men fighting to survive, void of right and wrong, void of reverence for life, void of all meaning. Yet, amidst the stagnant waters of hatred and bitterness, something was astir.

After the incident with the shovel, upon returning to the camp, one of the guards discovered a mistake in their counting. There had never been a missing shovel. The young man that stepped forward was innocent; he had sacrificed his life to preserve the lives of his fellow inmates. After this incident, attitudes among the camp began to change dramatically. Instead of men in a detached game of survival of the fittest, they began to look out for each other. One of the men remembered the words of Scripture: "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." Gordon, who once lay forgotten for dead, was slowly nursed back to health by fellow prisoners. Fully recovered, he eventually became a makeshift chaplain of the camp. When the prison was liberated in 1945--three years after his capture--Gordon entered seminary to become a minister of the message of Jesus Christ. "Faith thrives where there is no hope but God," he later testified. How contrary to the words of Richard Dawkins.

The transformation in the men of the prison was so thoroughly unlike the world they were forced to live in that one could argue it was more like a waterfall defying gravity and moving upstream than a puddle naturally fitting into the crevice that holds it. The sacrifice of one innocent man can reverse the flow of history. Perhaps the kingdom of God is indeed among us, a spring of living water in a dry and weary land.



loco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19086
  • loco like a fox
Re: Nice Richard Dawkins Quote: why gods are so improbable....
« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2008, 12:12:49 PM »
Puddles, Rivers, and Waterfalls
Jill Carattini
from rzim.org


Great story, Colossus_500!

Colossus_500

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3993
  • Psalm 139
Re: Nice Richard Dawkins Quote: why gods are so improbable....
« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2008, 01:49:08 PM »
Great story, Colossus_500!
Thanks, loco!    :)

Deedee

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5067
  • They sicken of the calm, who knew the storm.
Re: Nice Richard Dawkins Quote: why gods are so improbable....
« Reply #55 on: May 28, 2008, 02:33:46 PM »
I can agree with that, a person who has lived with the pregnancy for 5 months and not taken action to end it has implied they have accepted responsibility for their pregnancy.

Are you against abortion in all cases: rape, incest, etc...

I guess everyone has their own personal moral threshold.  I'm not against early term abortion though.  It's very sad and traumatic for anyone to have to deal with that, but it exists for several reasons.

If you're against abortion, logically speaking I guess you would have to be against it for any reason, including rape or incest.

Deedee

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5067
  • They sicken of the calm, who knew the storm.
Re: Nice Richard Dawkins Quote: why gods are so improbable....
« Reply #56 on: May 28, 2008, 02:41:09 PM »
Thanks, loco!    :)

It is a nice story about hope.  :)

Not sure though, what anything in that story has to do with Dawkins.  You're confusing his descriptions of the natural world, with human characteristics.  Or at least, the author is.  It sounds like these men were Christians who lost their faith due to their awful circumstances until someone performed a heroic act and they found it again. 

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 63727
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Nice Richard Dawkins Quote: why gods are so improbable....
« Reply #57 on: May 28, 2008, 02:46:29 PM »
It's my personal opinion Beach, and I'm no expert.  I do think that, unless you're Polish and have to raise money to travel to Germany, if you were seriously desperate you'd take care of your problem within two months.  Waiting five months implies that you have serious qualms, to me. Also, I think there is difference between a potential life that is the size of pinprick, and one that is starting to form into a human.

15% of potential life is spontaneously ejected, without the woman even knowing about it, and flushed down the toilet.  :-\  Sounds crass, but it's true. What's the difference?

Preciousness of life is also relative.  Babies are killed in Iraq.  Their lives are precious, true, but not THAT precious. And, if you had to sacrifice one of your children so that 1.3 million potential lives currently the size of a pinprick could live, would you do it? No, probably not.  You would probably sacrifice your own life for that of any one of your children because their lives are more precious to you than your own.  And so on.  And I believe that if there were suddenly mass food shortages, most anti-choice people would suddenly suspend their belief in "all life" is precious and gladly sacrifice the 1.3 million unborn each year, so that their own toddlers could eat.   

Thanks for answering Deedee.  Very thoughtful response.  This is a very difficult issue.  Personally, I don't see a difference between an unborn baby and a newborn baby.  No easy answers to any of this.    

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Nice Richard Dawkins Quote: why gods are so improbable....
« Reply #58 on: May 28, 2008, 06:27:58 PM »
It is a nice story about hope.  :)

Not sure though, what anything in that story has to do with Dawkins.  You're confusing his descriptions of the natural world, with human characteristics.  Or at least, the author is.  It sounds like these men were Christians who lost their faith due to their awful circumstances until someone performed a heroic act and they found it again. 

From what I have gleaned of this Colossus fellow it seems that he has been blessed with amazing bodybuilding genetics and a comparative lack of cranial matter to boot.
I hate the State.

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Nice Richard Dawkins Quote: why gods are so improbable....
« Reply #59 on: May 28, 2008, 06:31:00 PM »
Thanks for answering Deedee.  Very thoughtful response.  This is a very difficult issue.  Personally, I don't see a difference between an unborn baby and a newborn baby.  No easy answers to any of this.    

The fact that you see no difference speaks volumes of your level of understanding of biology; one is a clump of cells with no nervous system, the other is a living, breathing primate. No difference?  ::)
I hate the State.

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 63727
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Nice Richard Dawkins Quote: why gods are so improbable....
« Reply #60 on: May 28, 2008, 06:46:56 PM »
The fact that you see no difference speaks volumes of your level of understanding of biology; one is a clump of cells with no nervous system, the other is a living, breathing primate. No difference?  ::)

So a baby at 36 weeks is a clump of cells with no nervous system?   ::)  The fact you see a difference tells me you probably don't have any kids, never helped your woman through a pregnancy, never looked at an ultrasound of a baby, never played with, talked to, read to, etc. an unborn child, never participated in a delivery, never cut an umbilical cord, never held a newborn baby, etc.  Same difference?   ::)

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Nice Richard Dawkins Quote: why gods are so improbable....
« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2008, 06:59:59 PM »
So a baby at 36 weeks is a clump of cells with no nervous system?   ::)  The fact you see a difference tells me you probably don't have any kids, never helped your woman through a pregnancy, never looked at an ultrasound of a baby, never played with, talked to, read to, etc. an unborn child, never participated in a delivery, never cut an umbilical cord, never held a newborn baby, etc.  Same difference?   ::)

Not 36 weeks; I was speaking of the first 2 weeks.

I work with kids every day. If more creationists would do that, they would see that we are indeed just apes.
I hate the State.

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 63727
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Nice Richard Dawkins Quote: why gods are so improbable....
« Reply #62 on: May 28, 2008, 07:23:12 PM »
Not 36 weeks; I was speaking of the first 2 weeks.

I work with kids every day. If more creationists would do that, they would see that we are indeed just apes.

I've lived and worked with kids for years.  They're not apes.  Smart, brutally honest yet born liars, impartial (i.e., not racist), selfish yet giving, and typically a joy to be around.   

Babies aren't aborted at 2 weeks.  Women don't typically discover they are pregnant until they are about 6 weeks or later.  By this stage (at least 7 weeks), the following have already developed: 

will have formed the heart
begins development of the brain and spinal cord
starts forming the gastrointestinal tract
the eyes move forward on the face and eyelids begin to form
the palate is nearing completion and the tongue begins to form
gastrointestinal tract separates from the genitourinary tract
all essential organs have begun to form

By 8.5 weeks, the following:

the embryo now resembles a human
facial features continue to develop
beginnings of external genitalia form
anal passage opens, but the rectal membrane is intact
circulation through the umbilical cord is well developed
long bones begin to form

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002398.htm

Nordic Superman

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6670
  • Hesitation doesn't come easily in this blood...
Re: Nice Richard Dawkins Quote: why gods are so improbable....
« Reply #63 on: May 29, 2008, 12:08:13 AM »
Beach Bum, are you saying Homo sapiens are NOT apes?
الاسلام هو شيطانية

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 63727
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Nice Richard Dawkins Quote: why gods are so improbable....
« Reply #64 on: May 29, 2008, 12:16:09 AM »
Beach Bum, are you saying Homo sapiens are NOT apes?

I said kids are not apes.  Are you saying kids are apes?

Nordic Superman

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6670
  • Hesitation doesn't come easily in this blood...
Re: Nice Richard Dawkins Quote: why gods are so improbable....
« Reply #65 on: May 29, 2008, 12:23:18 AM »
I said kids are not apes.  Are you saying kids are apes?

Not in the metaphorical sense no.
الاسلام هو شيطانية

Purple Aki

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1892
  • penisory contact with her volvo.
Re: Nice Richard Dawkins Quote: why gods are so improbable....
« Reply #66 on: May 29, 2008, 02:55:11 AM »
I saw a tramp reading a Richard Dawkins book only this morning.

True story.

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Nice Richard Dawkins Quote: why gods are so improbable....
« Reply #67 on: May 29, 2008, 05:22:14 AM »
I said kids are not apes.  Are you saying kids are apes?

We are apes and by default the children of our species are as well.
I hate the State.