Author Topic: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes  (Read 8656 times)

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66343
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« on: May 24, 2008, 09:03:30 PM »
Study to crack evangelical stereotypes

Story Highlights
New study aimed at "evangelical intelligentsia"

Expert: Many wrongly equate evangelicals with fundamentalists

75 million evangelicals in U.S. emphasize personal relationship with Jesus Christ
     
BOSTON, Massachusetts (AP) -- For decades, Boston University sociologist Peter Berger says, American intellectuals have looked down on evangelicals.

Educated people have the notion that evangelicals are "barefoot people of Tobacco Road who, I don't know, sleep with their sisters or something," Berger says.

It's time that attitude changed, he says.

"That was probably never correct, but it's totally false now and I think the image should be corrected," Berger said in a recent interview.

Now, his university's Institute on Culture, Religion and World Affairs is leading a two-year project that explores an "evangelical intelligentsia" which Berger says is growing and needs to be better understood, given the large numbers of evangelicals and their influence.

"It's not good if a prejudiced view of this community prevails in the elite circles of society," said Berger, a self-described liberal Lutheran. "It's bad for democracy and it's wrong." Watch how evangelicals are branching out politically

The study is being directed by Berger and Timothy Shah, an evangelical political scientist at the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life. Shah is documenting the history of the evangelical movement, including its historical hostility to higher learning, a revival of scholarship, and the minds and ideas it has since produced.

Some aren't convinced evangelical scholars have made as much progress as they think.

Boston College sociologist Alan Wolfe, who wrote an article in The Atlantic, "The Opening of the Evangelical Mind" in 2000, said despite the success of some evangelical scholars, many have retained an insularity and defensiveness that limits their effectiveness.

"There isn't enough mixing in the larger world of ideas," he said.

An estimated 75 million Americans are evangelicals, people who emphasize a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and commit to spreading the message of salvation though his redemptive death.

Evangelicals say they often aren't well-understood beyond their Bible-banging, evolution-hating caricature.

Many equate evangelicals with fundamentalists, an evangelical subset that interprets the Bible literally -- as in the six calendar days of creation -- and is home to ardent evolution opponents. But Shah said most evangelical scientists believe in evolution guided by God.

A quote from a 1993 Washington Post article, describing followers of two leading evangelists as "poor, uneducated and easily led," remains infamous among evangelicals as an example of the bias they claim to face. After President Bush won the 2004 election, New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd wrote Bush had won the evangelical vote, in part, by appealing to their "fear of scientific progress."

Mark Noll, an evangelical and well-known historian at the University of Notre Dame, said the stereotype is perpetuated because both religious and secular thinkers have created an either-or choice between science and God.

"It's just false," Noll said. "You go back to (Isaac) Newton and (Johannes) Kepler, the founders of early modern science were theists of one sort or another."

Shah says a major split between evangelicals and popular culture came after the so-called Scopes monkey trial in 1925, in which a teacher was convicted of violating Tennessee's ban on teaching evolution -- a decision later overturned. Defense attorney Clarence Darrow told his opponent, William Jennings Bryan, that: "You insult every man of science and learning in the world because he does not believe in your fool religion."

Two years later, Sinclair Lewis's "Elmer Gantry" poked at the anti-intellectualism of leading evangelicals and cast them as corrupt frauds. At the same time, Shah said, the country's institutions of higher education were taken over by people hostile to Christian faith.

"(Evangelicals) felt totally besieged," Shah said. "They felt like the culture made fun of them."

Evangelicals began to emerge from "their self-imposed ghetto" in the 1950s and '60s after prodding from leaders such as Billy Graham, who urged a new intellectual boldness, Shah said.

They also became more prosperous and better educated, and produced more scholars as a result, Berger said.

Notre Dame is home to several of the best-known evangelical thinkers besides Noll, including philosopher Alvin Plantinga, whose "free will defense" takes on the logical problem of evil, and historian George Marsden, who won the prestigious Bancroft Prize for his book on colonial preacher Jonathan Edwards.

Other notables who identify themselves as evangelicals include federal judge Michael McConnell, a top constitutional law scholar, Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project, and Duke professor Peter Feaver, a former top director at the National Security Council.

Shah is conducting detailed interviews with top scholars as part of the ongoing research. In December, the project hosted a conference in Boston where evangelicals discussed how their faith informs their work and how to create more room for a religious perspective in various academic disciplines. The research will eventually be published in a book.

As evangelical scholars seek greater influence, Wolfe warns that getting respect is a two-way street.

Evangelicals in the academy too often aren't open to truly engaging those who disagree, said Wolfe, who points to things like "faith statements" at evangelical colleges, which require professors to proclaim Christian belief. A prospering intellectual culture wouldn't make that requirement and shut other views out, he said.

"It's when you view your tradition with such confidence that you want to offer it to others ... that's when you've made it," Wolfe said.

"I don't see evangelicals having that pride in their own tradition, yet."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/05/22/evangelicals.ap/index.html

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2008, 10:07:43 PM »
Study to crack evangelical stereotypes

Story Highlights
New study aimed at "evangelical intelligentsia"

Expert: Many wrongly equate evangelicals with fundamentalists

75 million evangelicals in U.S. emphasize personal relationship with Jesus Christ
     
BOSTON, Massachusetts (AP) -- For decades, Boston University sociologist Peter Berger says, American intellectuals have looked down on evangelicals.

Educated people have the notion that evangelicals are "barefoot people of Tobacco Road who, I don't know, sleep with their sisters or something," Berger says.

It's time that attitude changed, he says.

"That was probably never correct, but it's totally false now and I think the image should be corrected," Berger said in a recent interview.

Now, his university's Institute on Culture, Religion and World Affairs is leading a two-year project that explores an "evangelical intelligentsia" which Berger says is growing and needs to be better understood, given the large numbers of evangelicals and their influence.

"It's not good if a prejudiced view of this community prevails in the elite circles of society," said Berger, a self-described liberal Lutheran. "It's bad for democracy and it's wrong." Watch how evangelicals are branching out politically

The study is being directed by Berger and Timothy Shah, an evangelical political scientist at the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life. Shah is documenting the history of the evangelical movement, including its historical hostility to higher learning, a revival of scholarship, and the minds and ideas it has since produced.

Some aren't convinced evangelical scholars have made as much progress as they think.

Boston College sociologist Alan Wolfe, who wrote an article in The Atlantic, "The Opening of the Evangelical Mind" in 2000, said despite the success of some evangelical scholars, many have retained an insularity and defensiveness that limits their effectiveness.

"There isn't enough mixing in the larger world of ideas," he said.

An estimated 75 million Americans are evangelicals, people who emphasize a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and commit to spreading the message of salvation though his redemptive death.

Evangelicals say they often aren't well-understood beyond their Bible-banging, evolution-hating caricature.

Many equate evangelicals with fundamentalists, an evangelical subset that interprets the Bible literally -- as in the six calendar days of creation -- and is home to ardent evolution opponents. But Shah said most evangelical scientists believe in evolution guided by God.

A quote from a 1993 Washington Post article, describing followers of two leading evangelists as "poor, uneducated and easily led," remains infamous among evangelicals as an example of the bias they claim to face. After President Bush won the 2004 election, New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd wrote Bush had won the evangelical vote, in part, by appealing to their "fear of scientific progress."

Mark Noll, an evangelical and well-known historian at the University of Notre Dame, said the stereotype is perpetuated because both religious and secular thinkers have created an either-or choice between science and God.

"It's just false," Noll said. "You go back to (Isaac) Newton and (Johannes) Kepler, the founders of early modern science were theists of one sort or another."

Shah says a major split between evangelicals and popular culture came after the so-called Scopes monkey trial in 1925, in which a teacher was convicted of violating Tennessee's ban on teaching evolution -- a decision later overturned. Defense attorney Clarence Darrow told his opponent, William Jennings Bryan, that: "You insult every man of science and learning in the world because he does not believe in your fool religion."

Two years later, Sinclair Lewis's "Elmer Gantry" poked at the anti-intellectualism of leading evangelicals and cast them as corrupt frauds. At the same time, Shah said, the country's institutions of higher education were taken over by people hostile to Christian faith.

"(Evangelicals) felt totally besieged," Shah said. "They felt like the culture made fun of them."

Evangelicals began to emerge from "their self-imposed ghetto" in the 1950s and '60s after prodding from leaders such as Billy Graham, who urged a new intellectual boldness, Shah said.

They also became more prosperous and better educated, and produced more scholars as a result, Berger said.

Notre Dame is home to several of the best-known evangelical thinkers besides Noll, including philosopher Alvin Plantinga, whose "free will defense" takes on the logical problem of evil, and historian George Marsden, who won the prestigious Bancroft Prize for his book on colonial preacher Jonathan Edwards.

Other notables who identify themselves as evangelicals include federal judge Michael McConnell, a top constitutional law scholar, Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project, and Duke professor Peter Feaver, a former top director at the National Security Council.

Shah is conducting detailed interviews with top scholars as part of the ongoing research. In December, the project hosted a conference in Boston where evangelicals discussed how their faith informs their work and how to create more room for a religious perspective in various academic disciplines. The research will eventually be published in a book.

As evangelical scholars seek greater influence, Wolfe warns that getting respect is a two-way street.

Evangelicals in the academy too often aren't open to truly engaging those who disagree, said Wolfe, who points to things like "faith statements" at evangelical colleges, which require professors to proclaim Christian belief. A prospering intellectual culture wouldn't make that requirement and shut other views out, he said.

"It's when you view your tradition with such confidence that you want to offer it to others ... that's when you've made it," Wolfe said.

"I don't see evangelicals having that pride in their own tradition, yet."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/05/22/evangelicals.ap/index.html

Because their views are wrong.
I hate the State.

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66343
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2008, 11:51:02 AM »
So how do you characterize these people, who are educated, accomplished, and highly intelligent?

Notre Dame is home to several of the best-known evangelical thinkers besides Noll, including philosopher Alvin Plantinga, whose "free will defense" takes on the logical problem of evil, and historian George Marsden, who won the prestigious Bancroft Prize for his book on colonial preacher Jonathan Edwards.

Other notables who identify themselves as evangelicals include federal judge Michael McConnell, a top constitutional law scholar, Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project, and Duke professor Peter Feaver, a former top director at the National Security Council.

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2008, 06:24:49 PM »
So how do you characterize these people, who are educated, accomplished, and highly intelligent?

Notre Dame is home to several of the best-known evangelical thinkers besides Noll, including philosopher Alvin Plantinga, whose "free will defense" takes on the logical problem of evil, and historian George Marsden, who won the prestigious Bancroft Prize for his book on colonial preacher Jonathan Edwards.

Other notables who identify themselves as evangelicals include federal judge Michael McConnell, a top constitutional law scholar, Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project, and Duke professor Peter Feaver, a former top director at the National Security Council.


It's called compartmentalisation of the mind; emotional neediness is not equivalent to intelligence and one can be very intelligent and still emotionally needy.
I hate the State.

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66343
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2008, 06:31:30 PM »
It's called compartmentalisation of the mind; emotional neediness is not equivalent to intelligence and one can be very intelligent and still emotionally needy.

Do you consider these people dumb, crazy, etc.? 

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2008, 08:01:52 PM »
Do you consider these people dumb, crazy, etc.? 

No, clearly such people as those are intelligent. However, they are emotionally needy. Their desire to be 'loved and cared for' by an all powerful father figure fulfills that neediness. Believers invariably believe for emotional reasons; the desire for protection in a hostile world, a sense of hope, wanting to be loved, being part of a community; none of these is a rational reason grounded in evidence.
I hate the State.

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66343
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2008, 09:11:17 PM »
No, clearly such people as those are intelligent. However, they are emotionally needy. Their desire to be 'loved and cared for' by an all powerful father figure fulfills that neediness. Believers invariably believe for emotional reasons; the desire for protection in a hostile world, a sense of hope, wanting to be loved, being part of a community; none of these is a rational reason grounded in evidence.

And you know all this about Judge McConnell, despite never having a single conversation with him? 

I thought you said people who believe in God are nuts? 

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2008, 09:13:08 PM »
And you know all this about Judge McConnell, despite never having a single conversation with him? 

I thought you said people who believe in God are nuts? 

Some are; most are simply emotionally so needy that they need a father figure to give them a sense of 'hope' and to spare them from their annihilation.
I hate the State.

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66343
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2008, 09:18:36 PM »
Some are; most are simply emotionally so needy that they need a father figure to give them a sense of 'hope' and to spare them from their annihilation.

I'm specifically about Judge McConnell (or really any of the people identified in the article).  How do you know they are "emotionally needy"?  How do you know why they consider themselves evangelicals?  I guess these are really rhetorical questions, because clearly you don't know.  I understand you're just expressing an opinion, but you have to admit it's an uninformed opinion. 

And didn't you say people who believe in God are crazy?  Have you changed your mind? 

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66343
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2008, 09:47:32 PM »
In fact, you created a thread called "Do you ever wonder why genuine believers are not classed as being mentally ill?"  http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=197176.0

Some excerpts from that thread:

Quote
I wasn't asking for your opinion about theology.  You queried whether "genuine believers" are mentally ill.  I assume this is your belief?  I asked if you had the "same opinion of people who attend, graduate from, and teach at divinity schools?  What about those attending/teaching at parochial schools?"     


Quote
In a way they are. They have been brainwashed. What is the object of study in a divinity school? A forever unprovable entity. It is just plain silly. If they genuinely believe these things, whatever their schooling, I submit that they have some sort of mental illness; it is a cult after all.

Deedee

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5067
  • They sicken of the calm, who knew the storm.
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2008, 10:13:41 PM »
Nice to see that the movement is doing some housecleaning and PR work to rid themselves of that image the moronic plagues, fraudsters and closeted homosexuals have pervaded it with.

What is a "genuine" believer though? Someone who believes in evolution as does Francis Collins? It's all so complicated.  :-[

I also wonder why Ben Stein didn't interview him for his expose, since Collins seems to feel that there is no problem with faith and science in the academic community.  ???

For me, that leap came in my 27th year, after a search to learn more about God's character led me to the person of Jesus Christ. Here was a person with remarkably strong historical evidence of his life, who made astounding statements about loving your neighbor, and whose claims about being God's son seemed to demand a decision about whether he was deluded or the real thing. After resisting for nearly two years, I found it impossible to go on living in such a state of uncertainty, and I became a follower of Jesus.

So, some have asked, doesn't your brain explode? Can you both pursue an understanding of how life works using the tools of genetics and molecular biology, and worship a creator God? Aren't evolution and faith in God incompatible? Can a scientist believe in miracles like the resurrection?

Actually, I find no conflict here, and neither apparently do the 40 percent of working scientists who claim to be believers. Yes, evolution by descent from a common ancestor is clearly true. If there was any lingering doubt about the evidence from the fossil record, the study of DNA provides the strongest possible proof of our relatedness to all other living things.

But why couldn't this be God's plan for creation? True, this is incompatible with an ultra-literal interpretation of Genesis, but long before Darwin, there were many thoughtful interpreters like St. Augustine, who found it impossible to be exactly sure what the meaning of that amazing creation story was supposed to be. So attaching oneself to such literal interpretations in the face of compelling scientific evidence pointing to the ancient age of Earth and the relatedness of living things by evolution seems neither wise nor necessary for the believer.



http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/03/collins.commentary/index.html

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2008, 05:21:29 AM »
I'm specifically about Judge McConnell (or really any of the people identified in the article).  How do you know they are "emotionally needy"?  How do you know why they consider themselves evangelicals?  I guess these are really rhetorical questions, because clearly you don't know.  I understand you're just expressing an opinion, but you have to admit it's an uninformed opinion. 

And didn't you say people who believe in God are crazy?  Have you changed your mind? 

Clinically speaking it is a form of mental illness or to quote Sam Harris:

Quote
It is merely an accident of history that it is considered normal in our society to believe that the Creator of the universe can hear your thoughts while it is demonstrative of mental illness to believe that he is communicating with you by having the rain tap in Morse code on your bedroom window.

I hate the State.

columbusdude82

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6896
  • I'm too sexy for my shirt!!!
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2008, 05:26:37 AM »
Francis Collins is going to Hell for being a Darwinist. God doesn't like all those who don't read the BIBLE!!!

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2008, 05:51:42 AM »
Francis Collins is going to Hell for being a Darwinist. God doesn't like all those who don't read the BIBLE!!!

Collins is a quack and the reasons he gives for becoming a Christian are pretty pathetic.
I hate the State.

columbusdude82

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6896
  • I'm too sexy for my shirt!!!
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2008, 05:55:57 AM »
Collins is a quack and the reasons he gives for becoming a Christian are pretty pathetic.

STFU, fundy nutcase ::)

Jesus is coming soon and He will shut you up Himself...

*Singing* "Jesus comes with clouds descending..."

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2008, 06:04:26 AM »
STFU, fundy nutcase ::)

Jesus is coming soon and He will shut you up Himself...

*Singing* "Jesus comes with clouds descending..."

Fuck Jesus... ::)
I hate the State.

columbusdude82

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6896
  • I'm too sexy for my shirt!!!
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2008, 06:05:25 AM »
Fuck Jesus... ::)

He heard that!!!

Remember, He knows when you are sleeping, He knows when you're awake, He knows if you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness' sake!!!

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2008, 06:08:41 AM »
He heard that!!!

Remember, He knows when you are sleeping, He knows when you're awake, He knows if you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness' sake!!!

Blah, blah, blah...
I hate the State.

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66343
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2008, 09:57:08 AM »
Clinically speaking it is a form of mental illness or to quote Sam Harris:



Are the following people mentally ill because they are evangelicals? 

Alvin Plantinga, George Marsden, Judge Michael McConnell, Francis Collins, and Professor Peter Feaver.

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2008, 06:36:13 PM »
Are the following people mentally ill because they are evangelicals? 

Alvin Plantinga, George Marsden, Judge Michael McConnell, Francis Collins, and Professor Peter Feaver.

Clearly many forms of religion are indeed socially sanctioned forms of madness. Read Collins' book; his reasons for becoming are not only non-scientific but also stupid.
I hate the State.

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66343
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2008, 08:12:03 PM »
Clearly many forms of religion are indeed socially sanctioned forms of madness. Read Collins' book; his reasons for becoming is not only non-scientific but also stupid.

I understand why you don't want to answer.  :)

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2008, 10:16:10 PM »
I understand why you don't want to answer.  :)

I did answer the question; those people are mentally ill.

I don't know why you claim I haven't or presume to know why I allegedly 'do not want to'.
I hate the State.

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66343
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2008, 11:00:37 PM »
I did answer the question; those people are mentally ill.

I don't know why you claim I haven't or presume to know why I allegedly 'do not want to'.

I just assumed you weren't really going to say some of the most educated, accomplished, intelligent people in the country are mentally ill, because you realized how absurd that would sound.  But I was wrong. 

Pretty extreme way to rationalize your dislike of God and religion. 

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2008, 06:01:45 AM »
I just assumed you weren't really going to say some of the most educated, accomplished, intelligent people in the country are mentally ill, because you realized how absurd that would sound.  But I was wrong. 

Pretty extreme way to rationalize your dislike of God and religion. 

I don't rationalise anything.

If someone ran around claiming that Zorkhan the Alien Emperor of the Xenox Galaxy were communicating with him telepathically, he would correctly be labled a nut. Change Zorkhan to Yahweh and all bets are off; you can say whatever you like and no one will think you are 'crazy'. If you don't get how absurd THAT is, then you are forever lost...
I hate the State.

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66343
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2008, 09:07:38 AM »
I don't rationalise anything.

If someone ran around claiming that Zorkhan the Alien Emperor of the Xenox Galaxy were communicating with him telepathically, he would correctly be labled a nut. Change Zorkhan to Yahweh and all bets are off; you can say whatever you like and no one will think you are 'crazy'. If you don't get how absurd THAT is, then you are forever lost...

Except the overwhelming majority of people in this country don't run around claiming Zorkhan is God.  Classic straw man. 

If you don't get how absurd it sounds to label the vast majority of the country, including the people in this article, as mentally ill, then your extreme anti-religious hatred has really blinded you.