Author Topic: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes  (Read 8696 times)

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2008, 09:47:06 AM »
Except the overwhelming majority of people in this country don't run around claiming Zorkhan is God.  Classic straw man. 

If you don't get how absurd it sounds to label the vast majority of the country, including the people in this article, as mentally ill, then your extreme anti-religious hatred has really blinded you.   

Or Zeus, or Woden or Thor....though there are some. Are Greek polytheists mad? I have said it before, I will say it again; socially sanctioned madness.
I hate the State.

loco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 20424
  • loco like a fox
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2008, 09:57:46 AM »
Or Zeus, or Woden or Thor....though there are some. Are Greek polytheists mad? I have said it before, I will say it again; socially sanctioned madness.


Deicide,
Do you feel like this about Christians only, or do you feel the same about anybody who believes in a higher power out there, all theists, all deists, etc.?

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2008, 10:11:03 AM »
Deicide,
Do you feel like this about Christians only, or do you feel the same about anybody who believes in a higher power out there, all theists, all deists, etc.?

No, all theists are fair game to my mind,  monotheists in particular.

Deism, well that was once a tenable position but is completely unnecessary now; if someone wants to believe in a totally uninvolved first cause, so be it; I have a bunch of deist internet allies.
I hate the State.

loco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 20424
  • loco like a fox
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2008, 10:14:52 AM »
No, all theists are fair game to my mind,  monotheists in particular.

Deism, well that was once a tenable position but is completely unnecessary now; if someone wants to believe in a totally uninvolved first cause, so be it; I have a bunch of deist internet allies.

What do you mean by allies?  Friends?

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2008, 10:17:25 AM »
What do you mean by allies?  Friends?

Allies in the fight against silly and dangerous religious ideas.
I hate the State.

loco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 20424
  • loco like a fox
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2008, 10:26:25 AM »
Allies in the fight against silly and dangerous religious ideas.

So in your opinion Deists are nut cases along with anyone who is not atheist, but you think is okay to have nut cases for allies as long as they join you in your fight against religion?

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2008, 10:30:28 AM »
So in your opinion Deists are nut cases along with anyone who is not atheist, but you think is okay to have nut cases for allies as long as they join you in your fight against religion?

I said deists are fine; they are essentially atheists. A first cause that has removed itself from the universe and doesn't interact with it in any way whatsoever...why not? Still an unnecessary position to advocate but it is far more rational than any sort of theism.
I hate the State.

Deedee

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5067
  • They sicken of the calm, who knew the storm.
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2008, 10:36:47 AM »
It's rather obtuse to think that brilliant people can't be mentally ill.  John Forbes Nash comes to mind, as do Hemmingway, Winston Churchill, Abraham Lincoln, Vincent van Gogh, for starters.  Many creative, intelligent people have mental problems.

That having been said, is it delusional for Mr./Mrs Neumann to keep their daughter from getting medical attention because they believe Satan is afoot and only God can oust the evil? Yeah, and even most religious people would condemn that.  The same people who think that if they pray hard enough with a group of businessmen, God will take time out of his busy schedge to smile upon them and their fiscal concerns.  Many atheists find that delusional as well. I don't, as it's harmless, but, some do.

Is it delusional to sit in front of the religion channel, (which is basically the home shopping channel for the spiritually bereft) writing checks to a man in a bad hairhat who, waving spiritual baubles in your face, tells you you'll be "planting seeds in heaven"?  Most atheists would say, yes it is. And sad, too. Yet millions give for "the harvest", and millions watch... rapt.

Is it delusional to hope the earth crashes and burns as soon as possible, so the "righteous" will have their orgasmic epiphany as God raptures them? Yes, and most atheists find that idea abhorrent.  Yet those people are out there.

Is it delusional to support Hagee the Obese when he proclaims that Bush is the Messiah and that Hitler was God's Great Hunter? Yes, most atheists would say so. Yet, the man has a large following.

That's why it is also great that a handful of people, like those above, and those who composed that new Manifesto, come along and try to bring people better role models... as well as to promote education and learning rather than feed into peoples' weaknesses.

loco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 20424
  • loco like a fox
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2008, 10:43:04 AM »
I said deists are fine; they are essentially atheists. A first cause that has removed itself from the universe and doesn't interact with it in any way whatsoever...why not? Still an unnecessary position to advocate but it is far more rational than any sort of theism.

So Deists are not nut cases in your opinion only because their "first cause" or "higher power" or "God" has removed itself/Himself?  

So if I believed that Yahweh triggered the big bang, then seeded the earth with everything needed to send evolution on its course, then removed Himself from all of it and never again got involved, I would not be a nut case in your opinion?

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2008, 07:26:13 PM »
So Deists are not nut cases in your opinion only because their "first cause" or "higher power" or "God" has removed itself/Himself?  

So if I believed that Yahweh triggered the big bang, then seeded the earth with everything needed to send evolution on its course, then removed Himself from all of it and never again got involved, I would not be a nut case in your opinion?

That would be a pretty strange way of going about it, wouldn't it? All those millions and millions of years of waste...don't you think Angry Yahweh could have done a better job?
I hate the State.

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2008, 07:41:45 PM »
So Deists are not nut cases in your opinion only because their "first cause" or "higher power" or "God" has removed itself/Himself?  

So if I believed that Yahweh triggered the big bang, then seeded the earth with everything needed to send evolution on its course, then removed Himself from all of it and never again got involved, I would not be a nut case in your opinion?

Listen to Hitchens talk about it for the first bit; some design... ::)



I hate the State.

loco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 20424
  • loco like a fox
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2008, 06:30:39 AM »
That would be a pretty strange way of going about it, wouldn't it? All those millions and millions of years of waste...don't you think Angry Yahweh could have done a better job?

Even so, if that was my belief, that Yahweh triggered the big bang, then seeded the earth with everything needed to send evolution on its course, then removed Himself from all of it and never again got involved, I would not be a nut case in your opinion?

loco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 20424
  • loco like a fox
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2008, 06:46:40 AM »
Listen to Hitchens talk about it for the first bit; some design... ::)

Hitchens supports the US invasion of Iraq?  Why?  I thought secular people considered this a religious conflict and were very much opposed to it.  It has been referred to as a religious conflict by skeptics on this and the politics board.

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2008, 06:49:03 AM »
Hitchens supports the US invasion of Iraq?  Why?  I thought secular people considered this a religious conflict and were very much opposed to it.  It has been referred to as a religious conflict by skeptics on this and the politics board.

Many of us skeptics find Hitchens position on the Iraq war untenable, myself included. It is bizarre. It is the Hitchen's paradox.
I hate the State.

columbusdude82

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6896
  • I'm too sexy for my shirt!!!
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2008, 07:00:42 AM »
Hitchens supports the US invasion of Iraq?  Why?  I thought secular people considered this a religious conflict and were very much opposed to it.  It has been referred to as a religious conflict by skeptics on this and the politics board.

Hitchens has been pro-war from the start. He makes a very good and convincing case, then as now.

Shows you that you shouldn't stereotype "secular people" into one mindset :)

loco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 20424
  • loco like a fox
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2008, 07:14:28 AM »
Hitchens has been pro-war from the start. He makes a very good and convincing case, then as now.

Shows you that you shouldn't stereotype "secular people" into one mindset :)

You promote his anti-religion book, debates and speeches, don't you?  One of his arguments against religion is violence, yet he's pro-war from the start? 

Shows you that even if Hitchens, as many secular people would like, takes God and religion out of this world, if that were possible, you still have violence, war and suffering perpetrated and supported by so called "brilliant", "enlightened" and "civilized" secular people.  Not saying that Hitches would be perpetrating it necessarily, but that he would be supporting it just as he does now.

columbusdude82

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6896
  • I'm too sexy for my shirt!!!
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2008, 07:22:32 AM »
You promote his anti-religion book, debates and speeches, don't you?  One of his arguments against religion is violence, yet he's pro-war from the start? 

Shows you that even if Hitchens, as many secular people would like, takes God and religion out of this world, if that were possible, you still have violence, war and suffering perpetrated and supported by so called "brilliant", "enlightened" and "civilized" secular people.  Not saying that Hitches would be perpetrating it necessarily, but that he would be supporting it just as he does now.

You're missing the point by a mile. Have you read or heard his pro-war arguments? I doubt you have. You just want to make a narrow comparison here...

Before you talk, look up his articles or listen to his arguments on the war issue: from the Kurds onwards...

Once again, I find myself referring you to the library ;)

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2008, 07:27:47 AM »
You're missing the point by a mile. Have you read or heard his pro-war arguments? I doubt you have. You just want to make a narrow comparison here...

Before you talk, look up his articles or listen to his arguments on the war issue: from the Kurds onwards...

Once again, I find myself referring you to the library ;)

His arguments are ok but point by point he loses and has lost debates on the Iraq issue; it is only his ego that keeps him on the issue.
I hate the State.

loco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 20424
  • loco like a fox
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2008, 07:37:05 AM »
You're missing the point by a mile. Have you read or heard his pro-war arguments? I doubt you have. You just want to make a narrow comparison here...

Before you talk, look up his articles or listen to his arguments on the war issue: from the Kurds onwards...

Once again, I find myself referring you to the library ;)

Yes, I read them on the Internet this morning.  No need to go to the library.   ;)

I guess the Bush administration should count Hitchens as an ally in justifying the US invation of Iraq.

Deedee

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5067
  • They sicken of the calm, who knew the storm.
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2008, 09:32:34 AM »
I don't think Chris Hitchens ever got over the fatwa placed on Salman Rushdie's head, and that his views are of a personal nature.  :)

I also believe human beings have a blood lust and will to survive that goes way back to our evolutionary tribal past. Religious people are no more or less apt to engage in slaughter and warfare than anyone else. The reasons are manmade but the urge is visceral.  When religious people engage in war in the name of God they're simply fulfilling their evolutionary instinct, same as everyone else.  Oil, God, borders, it's all the same.

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2008, 09:39:53 AM »
I don't think Chris Hitchens ever got over the fatwa placed on Salman Rushdie's head, and that his views are of a personal nature.  :)

I also believe human beings have a blood lust and will to survive that goes way back to our evolutionary tribal past. Religious people are no more or less apt to engage in slaughter and warfare than anyone else. The reasons are manmade but the urge is visceral.  When religious people engage in war in the name of God they're simply fulfilling their evolutionary instinct, same as everyone else.  Oil, God, borders, it's all the same.

But no other force on earth makes such a transcendental difference of people as does religion and thus a truely insane reason to wage war.
I hate the State.

loco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 20424
  • loco like a fox
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2008, 09:42:22 AM »
I don't think Chris Hitchens ever got over the fatwa placed on Salman Rushdie's head, and that his views are of a personal nature.  :)

I also believe human beings have a blood lust and will to survive that goes way back to our evolutionary tribal past. Religious people are no more or less apt to engage in slaughter and warfare than anyone else. The reasons are manmade but the urge is visceral.  When religious people engage in war in the name of God they're simply fulfilling their evolutionary instinct, same as everyone else.  Oil, God, borders, it's all the same.

Hi Deedee!  So if this is true, don't you think that we, religious and secular alike, are better off following, not our "evolutionary instinct", but instead following the 10 commandments, "thou shall not kill", etc., and the teachings of Jesus, "do unto others...", "love your enemies", "bless those who curse you", etc.?

Deedee

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5067
  • They sicken of the calm, who knew the storm.
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2008, 09:52:05 AM »
Hi Deedee!  So if this is true, don't you think that we, religious and secular alike, are better off following, not our "evolutionary instinct", but instead following the 10 commandments, "thou shall not kill", etc., and the teachings of Jesus, "do unto others...", "love your enemies", "bless those who curse you", etc.?

Hi loco! Yes absolutely I do think those rules are good.  I also think that as we evolved, the empathy instinct became instilled in our DNA to ensure our survival. Safety in numbers. This caused us to create a God whom we would fear and love, in order to further ensure that we would follow those rules and thereby flourish and multiply.  :) We kind of overdid it with the multiplying, but nevertheless, here we are.

Deedee

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5067
  • They sicken of the calm, who knew the storm.
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2008, 10:00:51 AM »
But no other force on earth makes such a transcendental difference of people as does religion and thus a truely insane reason to wage war.

It's all insane, really.  I do think if it weren't about religious elbow jostling, it would be something else. The point is, man, like all animals, must occasionally cull the herds. Imagine how over run the earth would be if Protestants and Catholics, muslims and christians, didn't slaughter each other at different points in history.

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Study to crack evangelical stereotypes
« Reply #49 on: May 28, 2008, 10:09:54 AM »
Hi Deedee!  So if this is true, don't you think that we, religious and secular alike, are better off following, not our "evolutionary instinct", but instead following the 10 commandments, "thou shall not kill", etc., and the teachings of Jesus, "do unto others...", "love your enemies", "bless those who curse you", etc.?

or this teaching of Jesus...

Luke 19:27-"But as for these enemies of mine who didn't want me to be their king-bring them here and slaughter them in my presence!'"

The alleged Jesus said many different things...that one is my personaly favourite...
I hate the State.