HCG halflife

[Tapeworm]

I saw that HCG halflife is 29 hours.  If you're going to use small doses on cycle, wouldn't every day be best if it's that short lived?

[Van_Bilderass]

Emmortal posted this on promuscle

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/49/1/12?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=1&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&fulltext=hcg+male+hypogonadism&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=70&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

[Tapeworm]

Interesting.  Those findings contradict Bill Roberts' recommendations.  What's this guy's rep like generally?


----------------
by Bill Roberts - hCG is provided as a glycoprotein powder to be diluted with water, and acts in the body like luteinizing hormone (LH), stimulating the testes to produce testosterone even when natural LH is not present or is deficient. It therefore is useful for maintaining testosterone production and/or testicle size during a steroid cycle. Use of this drug in the taper is rather counterproductive, since the resulting increased testosterone production is itself inhibitory to the hypothalamus and pituitary, delaying recovery. Thus, if this drug is used, it is preferably used during the cycle itself. A daily amount of 500 IU is generally sufficient, and in my opinion usage should not exceed 1000 IU per day.

Daily administration is superior to less frequent administration.

Doses over 1000 IU are noted for their tendency to cause or aggravate gynecomastia, and also act to desensitize the testicles to LH.

hCG may be injected intramuscularly, subcutaneously, or in a shallow injection about 1/4" deep with the needle going straight in. A 29 gauge insulin needle is recommended.  Injection speed should be slow.

Some hCG products are diluted 5000 or even 10,000 IU per mL, while others are diluted 1000 IU per mL. So far as I know there is no need to make the preparation so dilute. Once mixed, the preparation should be refrigerated and used within a few weeks. The substance is also somewhat temperature sensitive before mixing and should not be exposed to excessive heat.

hCG does not correct the problem of progressively-decreasing ejaculatory volume that is typical during a steroid cycle. So far as I know the only cure is to go off-cycle and use Clomid, but it is possible that human menopausal gonadotropin  (hMG), a related drug which works analogously to follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) might be useful during a cycle to treat this problem. HMG supports spermatogenesis and is commonly used in conjunction with hCG to treat male fertility problems. (Consider use of HMG to maintain ejaculatory volume to be a strictly past-the-cutting-edge hypothesis: I have not yet had the opportunity to test the matter.)

The athlete who would otherwise fail a urinary ratio test because of low epitestosterone may find hCG useful in increasing epitestosterone and therefore improving this ratio. A 500 IU dose is sufficient, but on the other hand, hCG itself is also banned by the IOC and is readily detected in urine.

hCG can also useful for returning testosterone to normal levels should levels be low post-cycle, or, with care, to increase levels from normal to high normal.  Titration of the dose, by measuring T levels and then adjusting the hCG dose accordingly, is recommended for long term use.

http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:unA3jzsjwV4J:mesomorphosis.com/steroid-profiles/human-chorionic-gonadotropin.htm+hcg+dosing&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5


I saw a manufacturer's writeup (which I can't seem to find again) which said that HCG levels peaked after 6 and 16 hours for IM and SQ shots, respectively.  I don't know the time frame required for the HCG to T process, but 56-66 hours seems long.

[Van_Bilderass]

Interesting.  Those findings contradict Bill Roberts' recommendations.  What's this guy's rep like generally?

I haven't seen anything from Bill the past several years. I do remember that he formulated that faulty "Class I/Class II" steroid classification.

[Tapeworm]

Do you personally agree with the article from the Endo Journal, Van?  Put ya on the spot here...

It seems pretty conclusive but I'm having a hard time reconciling the short half life and mechanism of action (which seems quick and in proportion with hcg levels) with T levels peaking 72 hours after the injection.  Perhaps it's got something to do with their 1500iu dose?  I can't find a longer version of the article, but I would have liked to look at their methods.  Are leydig cells so slow to respond?  Or do they continue their work for a couple days after the hcg has peaked?  I figure there will be some lag time between peak hcg levels and peak T levels, but 2 days?

I'm considering bumping my hcg from 300 eod to 300 ed.

[Emmortal]

There's really no point to injecting so frequently because the response to LH or HCG is progressive, meaning the first injection is used as a primer and the response increases with following injections.  Personally, I'll take the findings of a scientific journal over bro-science any day.  There's a lot of confusion about HCG and how much and how often to administer it so I stick with what's proven.  Here's another article that's quite interesting that states what I just said:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/61/5/926?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=1&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&fulltext=hcg+male+hypogonadism&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=20&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

Swale has a good HCG protocol, he's a doctor, and his suggestions are pretty similar to the PCT/HCG usage I follow in Visions protocol.

[Tapeworm]

There's really no point to injecting so frequently because the response to LH or HCG is progressive, meaning the first injection is used as a primer and the response increases with following injections. 

[/b]

That is indeed what the article states, however they provide insufficient evidence.  The only blood level measurements provided are for prepubertal males and hypogonadal males whom the study says showed no early response.

"T-G1 children and in patients with HH, the early response did not occur [T-G1, from 129 +/- 43 (SEM) to 288 +/- 127 pg/ml (P greater than 0.05); HH, 79 +/- 18 to 107 +/- 12 (P greater than 0.05) pg/ml]"

For whatever reason, they are simply misstating the facts.  Group T-G1 showed an average T increase of 223%.  How on earth can they call that a non response?  Is it compared to other more responsive groups?  Who knows?  They don't give us any data on the more responsive groups.

Moreover, their conclusion is based upon the fact that the second dose provided a response in groups which were unresponsive (apparently) to the first dose.  However, the second dose was twice that of the first (80iu/kg as opposed to 40iu/kg).  There is no mention of control groups receiving an 80iu/kg first dose and showing a non response.  There is no data showing a proportional or greater than proportional response to the second shot (or any data on the "responsive groups" response to the first shot.  In the absence of these controls, I find their conclusion that the first shot primes for the second to be shaky.

Even if we accept their findings, I don't see how it relates to whether it is best to shoot HCG ed, eod, e3d, etc.

Personally, I'll take the findings of a scientific journal over bro-science any day.

Are you pointing that at me?  I am not a bro scientist by any stretch.  I try to be accurate in ascribing cause and effect relationships and I require the same of scientists and their articles. I try to take the causal field into account.  I try not to let spurious correlations pass as cause and effect.  I tend to over research and I value data over assertion.  I readily admit it if I've drawn a bad conclusion and am grateful for the correction.

Swale has a good HCG protocol, he's a doctor, and his suggestions are pretty similar to the PCT/HCG usage I follow in Visions protocol.

This is from Swale's Protocol on Steroidology, fifth paragraph down:

"If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive."

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22584


Please accept this little meltdown in the academic spirit in which it is intended.  Not trying to harsh on you or your article, and I enjoy your posts man.  In fact, it was you and 4th AD talking about HCG on cycle which got me looking into things, and for that I am grateful.

[Emmortal]

I wasn't insinuating that you were talking bro-science at all, sorry if that was misunderstood.  There's just a TON of misinformation out there about HCG, let alone everything else and that was what I was referring to.  No need to apologize about anything, I didn't take it in a negative way, I believe it's good that we have on going discussions about protocols and what works best for people.  The biggest thing to keep in mind with any of this is how YOU respond to it so experimentation with your own body is by far the best way to look at it.  Some guys are opposed to running HCG on cycle and prefer it in PCT, while others are the opposite, is anyone wrong? Not at all.  They found what works for their own bodies and go with it.  I'm by far no doctor or scientist, I try to research as much as possible, but I also realize that getting too complicated with things can muck it up as well.  This is an ever evolving field and I believe even it's important to keep updating and experimenting to see if there are more efficient ways of doing things.

[Van_Bilderass]

Do you personally agree with the article from the Endo Journal, Van?  Put ya on the spot here...

I don't know man  I would err on the side of conservative and infrequent dosing.

I know of some bodybuilders who have worked with an endocrinologist who does research on steroid using bodybuilders trying to restore the HPTA and this endo puts these guys on 3 months of HCG, starting at
15, 000iu a week 

[Tapeworm]

I wasn't insinuating that you were talking bro-science at all, sorry if that was misunderstood.  There's just a TON of misinformation out there about HCG, let alone everything else and that was what I was referring to.  No need to apologize about anything, I didn't take it in a negative way, I believe it's good that we have on going discussions about protocols and what works best for people.  The biggest thing to keep in mind with any of this is how YOU respond to it so experimentation with your own body is by far the best way to look at it.  Some guys are opposed to running HCG on cycle and prefer it in PCT, while others are the opposite, is anyone wrong? Not at all.  They found what works for their own bodies and go with it.  I'm by far no doctor or scientist, I try to research as much as possible, but I also realize that getting too complicated with things can muck it up as well.  This is an ever evolving field and I believe even it's important to keep updating and experimenting to see if there are more efficient ways of doing things.

Thanks man.  Some guys get insulted if you question an article, like you've questioned the word of God or something, lol.  I agree there's a lot of contradictory info out there and we have to interpret it as best we can and find what produces the desired result through careful and informed experimentation.

One of the things I don't understand is the biphasic action of hcg.  The initial response makes good sense to me, but I don't get where the second peak comes from when there's only about 12% (I'm guessing) of the hcg left in the system 72 hours after dosing.  Clearly, I've got some more learning to do.

I don't know man  I would err on the side of conservative and infrequent dosing.

I know of some bodybuilders who have worked with an endocrinologist who does research on steroid using bodybuilders trying to restore the HPTA and this endo puts these guys on 3 months of HCG, starting at
15, 000iu a week 

Lol, I'm not going anywhere near doses like that.  Think I'll stick with 300 eod for now.  Thanks Van.

[4thAD]

I don't know man  I would err on the side of conservative and infrequent dosing.

I know of some bodybuilders who have worked with an endocrinologist who does research on steroid using bodybuilders trying to restore the HPTA and this endo puts these guys on 3 months of HCG, starting at
15, 000iu a week 

  is right seems like a pretty hefty dose. I wouldn't even attempt that insane dose.