Soldier Suicide Rates at all time high: yeah, Iraq is a great thing...

[OzmO]

I see your point.  I don't agree that we have our freedoms or liberties b/c of the military.  We have those b/c of the constitution. 

And it can be argued that the military protects the entity that executes the constitution.  Also the Military has been responsible for stopping aggression abraod that might have changed the course of world history for the worst and protecting our interests as well as our borders.

Our country's philosophy and morality for war is predicated on self-defense and not on brutal, unprovoked and discretionary attacks.

The war machine can be used for good (defense) and for evil (conquering).

No disagreement here.

We can shield ourselves from criticism by heaping heroic accolades on the men and women of our military--and they do deserve that when they deserve it--but that's a dodge in this case.

I don't think so.   In my mind giving the those serving their due credit in no way interferes with the criticism of the war.

A man, who believes he is serving his country and fighting terrorists goes to voluntarily and puts himself in harms way, IS a hero in my eyes.  The fact the war was wrongly justified is irrelevant regarding his due respect for what he's sacrificed.  And to call him a murder is appalling and disgraceful.

Or we can integrate the reason for the US's attack into an analysis of the actions of the military soldiers.

Maybe the actions of the commanding Generals, but I'm talking about the common soldier who has no say in policy or military decisions.  Like HH6.  Fact is the Generals, maybe for the wrong reasons, do what they can to limit the death of innocent  people.   I don't think anyone of them are so Evil as to believe they are justified by killing children.  (Unless of course you are the Jews committing Genocide by Killing Amalikites)

Are the US soldiers defending america?  I think that's a fairly obvious 'no.'

Are the US soldiers defending an ally?  No.  Iraq attacked no one.

How can we still view the soldiers's actions in Iraq as heroic or moral or the like?

Simple, they are doing what they are ordered to do and doing what they believe is defending America.   Your point however is well taken,  but remember, this is about calling them murderers.   

Now the tactfulness with which someone tells a soldier or his family that they are doing wrong in Iraq is a different story all together.

At this point, in the war, i really believe if they leave so many will die as Iraq plunges into civil war.    They are needed there becuase our president made the worse foriegn policy decision in the history of America and we cannot just leave our mess and see hundreds of thousands die as a result.

[tonymctones]

Ok.  But technically military force did not create a thing.  It expelled and destroyed but offered nothing into the vacuum.  Those principles in the constitution are what created america.  The military made that creation possible and is currently a tool for preserving those principles. 

This is quickly getting bogged down.

 What are they going to do?  Join hands and swim across the ocean to storm our beaches?  They have no conceivable ability to attack the US.

If they try other means, like terrorist attacks, well, that's what the good ol' Dept of Homeland Security/CIA/FBI is for.

What's the alternative?  Worry about Iraqi terrorism while occupying Iraq or leave Iraq and secure our country.

Where is it written that attacking Iraqi citizens will prevent an Iraqi citizen from coming to the US to become a suicide bomber?

Agreed the military didnt create the constitution but without the military our constitution would have been replaced by another form of dictator/monarchy. So the military is a BIG reason why we have our freedoms today!!!

Again I never said Iraqi ppl would "Join hands and swim across the ocean to storm our beaches" in fact i said that wasnt probable, I said the insurgents (maybe you were confused by the farmer/insurgents comment but that was a comment on war-horses comment) wouldnt stop fighting the US even if we left and you didnt say whether you agree or not?

I never said it would prevent a further attack, in fact if the insurgents there were smarter they wouldnt fight on their land they would attack US resources and establishments, and im sure that there are ppl and groups planning that right now as we converse. However for some reason they feel that they must make a stand in iraq so I would much rather them make a stand there than make a statement over here.

what is the alternative? good question, I think its one of those we're damned if we do and we're damned if we dont kinda things.

The war on terror will never be worth it to some b/c it does not have tangible results, you never see the number of lives saved. The war in Iraq has very concrete consequences however so the cost/benefits are hard if not impossible to see.

[Deicide]

you really think that if we leave them alone they will leave us alone?

They would turn on their own governments; the US isn't even their prime target.

[OzmO]

They would turn on their own governments; the US isn't even their prime target.

True.

And as they turn to their own governments.....   How many will die because we left a mess we created?

[tonymctones]

They would turn on their own governments; the US isn't even their prime target.

how do you explain the terrorist attacks on US establishments and resources before the war started?

[War-Horse]

I apologize for using the term murderer.   Iraq was and is no threat to us.  We were suposed to be in afghanastan until bush wanted a 51st state in the middle east as his legacy.......

It makes me sick to see kids dying for no reason at all.  Those sunnis and shias will fight a 1000yrs after were gone...its a way of life to them.

[Deicide]

how do you explain the terrorist attacks on US establishments and resources before the war started?

Mate, read a history book; blowback; Iran, bases in Saudi Arabia, Sanctions on Iraq for ten years; the US government killed 500,000 Iraqis under the Clinton administration.

[tonymctones]

Mate, read a history book; blowback; Iran, bases in Saudi Arabia, Sanctions on Iraq for ten years; the US government killed 500,000 Iraqis under the Clinton administration.

mate? I thought you were american? That somewhat goes against your statement that the US isnt a primary target...you stated that the US wasnt a primary target, but if that were true then we wouldnt have had so many attacks on US.

Your really think that they will just leave us alone if we pack up our shit and leave? that is even if they turn on the government, after one side wins you dont think there will be any terrorist attacks on the US?

[youandme]

Mate, read a history book; blowback; Iran, bases in Saudi Arabia, Sanctions on Iraq for ten years; the US government killed 500,000 Iraqis under the Clinton administration.

what    you just answered his question and said the US is the prime target...that is what blowback is, and what left wing nutbook said the US killed 500k people in Iraq 

[Deicide]

mate? I thought you were american? That somewhat goes against your statement that the US isnt a primary target...you stated that the US wasnt a primary target, but if that were true then we wouldnt have had so many attacks on US.

Your really think that they will just leave us alone if we pack up our shit and leave? that is even if they turn on the government, after one side wins you dont think there will be any terrorist attacks on the US?

The religious divisions of Islam and the Middle East are such that if the US were to disengage itself from the region they would just be killing each other; and that means stopping support for Israel. They are very insular societies. Please don't tell me you think they attack the US because it is 'rich and free'?

[Deicide]

what    you just answered his question and said the US is the prime target...that is what blowback is, and what left wing nutbook said the US killed 500k people in Iraq 

No, US disengagement would make them fight each other.

[tonymctones]

The religious divisions of Islam and the Middle East are such that if the US were to disengage itself from the region they would just be killing each other; and that means stopping support for Israel. They are very insular societies. Please don't tell me you think they attack the US because it is 'rich and free'?

No but i do think its very ignorant to think that these ppl would stop attacking the US if we just left. Do you really think there isnt resentment towards the US because it is so prosperous? you really think that there wouldnt be any groups out there that wouldnt still attack the US?

[Deicide]

No but i do think its very ignorant to think that these ppl would stop attacking the US if we just left. Do you really think there isnt resentment towards the US because it is so prosperous? you really think that there wouldnt be any groups out there that wouldnt still attack the US?

The rest of the world is boggled down with its own problems; without the issue of occupation we can be quite sure they wouldn't care aboout the US' prosperity (which is dwindling even as we write this). Where are the terror groups attacking Australia? They are wealthy and prosperous as well.

[tonymctones]

The rest of the world is boggled down with its own problems; without the issue of occupation we can be quite sure they wouldn't care aboout the US' prosperity (which is dwindling even as we write this). Where are the terror groups attacking Australia? They are wealthy and prosperous as well.

while im sure the majority of the world would mind its own business and deal with its own problems you think the radical groups in iraq right now would just stop and say ahhh you know what fuck it.

yes but they arent the big dick at the table we are.

[Deicide]

while im sure the majority of the world would mind its own business and deal with its own problems you think the radical groups in iraq right now would just stop and say ahhh you know what fuck it.

yes but they arent the big dick at the table we are.

Because they don't constantly intervene and meddle in everyone's affairs; 700+ military bases, 130 countries...it's seems plainly obvious.

[tonymctones]

and just so you know...australia is a target as well

http://www.vialls.com/terrorists/melbourne.html
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200703/s1873090.htm
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/29/1054177672945.html

http://www.theage.com.au/news/war-on-terror/asio-chief-warns-of-attacks-in-australia/2005/10/13/1128796656176.html

[tonymctones]

and just so you know...australia is a target as well

http://www.vialls.com/terrorists/melbourne.html
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200703/s1873090.htm
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/29/1054177672945.html

http://www.theage.com.au/news/war-on-terror/asio-chief-warns-of-attacks-in-australia/2005/10/13/1128796656176.html

Because they don't constantly intervene and meddle in everyone's affairs; 700+ military bases, 130 countries...it's seems plainly obvious.

guess that doesnt hold up huh?

[Deicide]

guess that doesnt hold up huh?

Was Australia a target before it became a member of the 'coallition of the willing'? No. It allied itself with the invaders.

[Dos Equis]

Look,

I don't agree with most of HH6's political views. 

However, there is nothing dishonorable about joining the military.  And it takes some serious balls to do what they do in Iraq.  They took an oath and 99.99% are making good on that oath.  Those that strongly don't agree with the war leave the military honorably.  Many people make a career out of being in the military.  There is nothing wrong with that either.  It's an honorable profession.

At some point, many of you haters need to realize that's it's the American Military that is responsible for many of our freedoms we enjoy, namely to criticize the government. 

I, for one, am vehemently opposed to the Iraq war/occupation but do not for one second DISGRACE myself by calling an honorable person in the military a murderer.   They are doing what they took an oath to do and believe they are protecting our country.  No wyou can argue all day long about the justification of the war but you cannot argue the integrity of our fighting men.  And i'm not talking about the bad apples you get from any group of people.  I'm talking the people in the military who are sacrificing soo much to fight what they believe is a worthwhile fight. 

So stop fvcking disgracing yourselves while you sit in your cozy ass homes.  You need to get your ass out fo the house and talk with some of the broken shattered families of wounded or KIA's.   Tell them they are murderers.  Or better yet, go over to Iraq, and get you arm blown off by some farmer/insurgent.

**Applause**

[calmus]

At some point, many of you haters need to realize that's it's the American Military that is responsible for many of our freedoms we enjoy, namely to criticize the government. 

THis is what is known in some circles as a conclusory statement

[tonymctones]

Was Australia a target before it became a member of the 'coallition of the willing'? No. It allied itself with the invaders.

http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page7930.asp
what about france and any number of other countries the islamic terrorist have performed acts of terror in? face it bro your proving my point there will always be a reason for these ppl to attack the US b/c they will justify it in anyway they can.

[Deicide]

http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page7930.asp
what about france and any number of other countries the islamic terrorist have performed acts of terror in? face it bro your proving my point there will always be a reason for these ppl to attack the US b/c they will justify it in anyway they can.

France? Are you kidding me? Decades of imperialism in Islamic countries has earned France great enmity amongst Muslims. UK as well.

[tonymctones]

France? Are you kidding me? Decades of imperialism in Islamic countries has earned France great enmity amongst Muslims. UK as well.

LOL ok well apparently the entire world has wronged the islamic community in some way so we are all targets, so i guess the war is justifiable then? there will always be a reason for them to attack us, making us a prime target like i said it goes against your first statement. They wont stop if we leave...

[War-Horse]

LOL ok well apparently the entire world has wronged the islamic community in some way so we are all targets, so i guess the war is justifiable then? there will always be a reason for them to attack us, making us a prime target like i said it goes against your first statement. They wont stop if we leave...

tony, if we left theyd turn on eachother full force.    However we have opened a can of worms in that they will have the chance to hold the USA in their sights forever......and justifyiably so.   

The point is there will never be a "Right" time to leave.  It will only get worse as we spend resources we dont have to build their country while we destroy our own.....

[Dos Equis]

LOL ok well apparently the entire world has wronged the islamic community in some way so we are all targets, so i guess the war is justifiable then? there will always be a reason for them to attack us, making us a prime target like i said it goes against your first statement. They wont stop if we leave...

I agree.  They hate us.  Pure and simple.  Wouldn't matter if we removed every armed forces member from the region.  They would still hate us.