Author Topic: old dante  (Read 23234 times)

Brutal_1

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Re: old dante
« Reply #50 on: June 02, 2008, 01:36:27 PM »


candizzle....

seriously bro, just stop
just not good enough

candidizzle

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Re: old dante
« Reply #51 on: June 02, 2008, 01:37:35 PM »
Candy-ass.....The 19 year old 150lb.  BBing guru.

Only on Getbig.
candidizzle the 235 lb 19 year old who knows a very small amount of information

but to RETARDS seems like a guru, because they themselves dont know jacks hit

only on getbig

GROINK, the mid life crisis guy who posts pics of his average looking girlfriend in a desperate attempt to try to get attention
 ;D  ;D  ;D

TOO EASY

okay guys...especially van cause vans cool and i respect van.... post your thoughts id love to hear them... but i gotta go cook a couple meals and then head to work so ill be back later

Camel Jockey

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Re: old dante
« Reply #52 on: June 02, 2008, 01:39:39 PM »
I don't think that much protein is needed.

I made my best gains by eating a fairly high protein diet, but less than what I ate before. Only difference was that I ate more carbs. I find carbs to be just as benefitial, and every protein meal I eat contains carbs like rice, or oats. This has kept me leaner, but has also lead to my best gains. My metabolism is decent so I don't get fat even with plenty of carbs if I keep my calories in check.

I think even Blockhead said that much protein isn't needed.

wes

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Re: old dante
« Reply #53 on: June 02, 2008, 01:41:38 PM »
Just one of many artices I found:

Protein Won't Make You Fat: Myth #1

How many magazines have you read where they tell you to take in X grams of protein? How many times have you see .75g of protein per lb of bodyweight or 1g maybe 1.5 for the advanced athlete or better yet 2g for the guy who really wants to grow!
 

All of those calculations may or may not be correct but it depends on YOU!

FACT: The #1 protein mistake people make is: They ingest more then they need.

MYTH: Any excess won't be stored as fat so it doesn't matter.

That's right a formula needs some input to make it work for you. So here's how you can quickly and easily figure out how much protein you need. Keep in mind that protein has calories. And while it's true that protein isn't as easily stored as fat there still remains the truth that your body only needs so many extra calories to grow.

Any excess just don't disappear.

It gets stored. As fat.

And that can and will include protein.

Ingesting 10x more then you need will not make your muscles any larger but it might add to your abdominal area in a way you wish it didn't. So figure out how much protein you need and eliminate the excess calories that can potentially just turn into fat storage.

Protein Calculation Formula:

The secret to figuring out how much protein you need is not by just taking some number you found like 30g and apply it to yourself. If everybody had the same needs we would all be the same. And we both know that just isn't true. Each person is slightly different.

Let me explain. We've all heard that a person can only digest 25-30g of protein in one sitting. B.S.!

Just think about it. Does an IFBB professional bodybuilder intake the same amount of protein as the guy who's 135 lbs just starting out? Even if there is a 200 lb weight difference?

The answer might shock you. NO

Needless to say, so many people just take some number, multiply that by their body weight and that's what they think they need a day. Tell me, if a person is 35% body fat, should they use their weight or their lean weight to figure out how much protein they need?

Simple. Lean weight. Your daily protein requirements are based on your lean body weight. And how do you figure out your lean body weight?

Use the skin fold caliper home test. Go back to Question #2.

Step 1:

Take your body weight in pounds

Example: 194 lbs

Step 2:

Find your body fat % using one of the methods in Question #2

Example: 15.7% (which is .157 for the step below)

Step 3:

Take your body weight in pounds and subtract the % body fat

Example: 194 lbs - (194 x .157 = 30.45 lbs of fat) = 163.54 lbs of lean body weight

Step 4:

Take your lean body weight and multiply by 1.14

Example: 163.54 lbs x 1.14 = 186.4g of protein a day

Step 5:

Divide your daily protein requirements by 5-6 meals and that is what your protein target is for each meal.

Example: 186.4/6 meals = 31.07g of protein per meal

As you will see, a person who is 286 lbs of lean body weight will require a lot more protein. And a person who is 286 lbs should not be consuming the same amount of protein if their percentage of body fat is 35%.

But why use 1.14 for protein requirements?

The RDA recommends .75g of protein. But that's been shown to be too low for active athletes.

Some sites will recommend 2.0g of protein. But that seems a bit high and your body will have trouble absorbing that not to mention you will probably have a lot of excess calories which can lead to fat gains.

1.14-1.5 is the most efficient range for most active, healthy adults. This range will help build muscle but not lead you into a high protein diet. Feel free to adjust within that range if you feel you need more protein.

Myth Busted!

Excess protein might not be bad for you but it's still excess calories and it doesn't just go away. It gets stored. So if you've ever heard that protein can't be stored as fat, that's simply not true.

Yours for Continued Success,

Marc David

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Re: old dante
« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2008, 01:47:45 PM »
candidizzle the 235 lb 19 year old who knows a very small amount of information

but to RETARDS seems like a guru, because they themselves dont know jacks hit

only on getbig

GROINK, the mid life crisis guy who posts pics of his average looking girlfriend in a desperate attempt to try to get attention
 ;D  ;D  ;D

TOO EASY

okay guys...especially van cause vans cool and i respect van.... post your thoughts id love to hear them... but i gotta go cook a couple meals and then head to work so ill be back later

235?.....235 what?  ounces?

I would expect you to not be impressed with my woman.......she's not a baboon with nostrils you can stick a quarter in 8)

Van_Bilderass

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Re: old dante
« Reply #55 on: June 02, 2008, 01:47:47 PM »
through what mechanims would protei have to go through to be stored as fat ? tunred into carbs, sure..(and its debateable whether ro not youll have have that happen unless you have a gluose demand that isnt being met by glucose itself), and then once turned into glucose it must by excesse glucose, you must have packed glycogen stores, and then it can be stored as fat.    i order for it to be excesse glucose, amino acids turn over rate into glucose would have to be very quick. which it is not. its a lengthy process and only yeilds a small amount of glucose.

Protein wouldn't be converted to fat in any normal setting. It would have to be converted to carbs first and then de novo lipogenesis would have to occur. Which I said doesn't happen to a large degree. What happens is that lipolysis stops and any fat you take in through the diet is deposited since carbs supply energy. The end result is the same = fat gain. Everyone knows gorging on carbs makes you fat but it isn't because the carbs themselves are converted to fat.

Single amino acids aren't carb free either. They contain the approx. 4 calories/gram that protein does. Supplements containing singular aminos don't list calorie count because for some reason the FDA only requires it for complete proteins. They aren't energy free.

DOGGCRAPP

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Re: old dante
« Reply #56 on: June 02, 2008, 01:53:02 PM »
Just for clarity reasons (Thermic Effect of Food ) it takes about 25-26 calories burned thru digestion to process every 100 calories of protein....while its roughly 4.6 calories burned for the digestion of 100 calories of fats and carbs.

Four hundred grams of protein for a large 250 pound bodybuilder results in about 400 calories burned thru digestion which is equal to a robust one hour walking cardio session on a treadmill (for that large bodybuilder).  

Van_Bilderass

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Re: old dante
« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2008, 02:06:43 PM »
Just for clarity reasons (Thermic Effect of Food ) it takes about 25-26 calories burned thru digestion to process every 100 calories of protein....while its roughly 4.6 calories burned for the digestion of 100 calories of fats and carbs.

Four hundred grams of protein for a large 250 pound bodybuilder results in about 400 calories burned thru digestion which is equal to a robust one hour walking cardio session on a treadmill (for that large bodybuilder). 

Yup, but you still have 75 calories for every 100 calories of protein that can cause fat gain, if not used for building muscle etc, if eating above maintenance. I'm sure some could read your last sentence and think eating protein is like walking on the treadmill.  :D

CT

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Re: old dante
« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2008, 02:07:22 PM »
You CAN store protein as fat. It is a more complex process, but it is possible and will only happen when your total caloric intake (from carbs and/or fat) is already above maintenance level.

To do it your body must:

1. Breakdown the ingested protein into amino acids (which happens every time you eat protein anyway).

2. Convert those amino acids into glucose (simple sugar) in the liver via a process called gluconeogenesis (it means creating new glucose).

3. The body can then convert glucose into fatty acids.

4. Finally those fatty acids can be stored into the adipocytes (fat cells).

Quite a long biochemical process, but it is possible. When is it likely to happen?

- When intramuscular and intrahepatic glycogen stores are full (they can contain anywhere from 300 to 600g og glycogen depending on the size of the individual) AND that protein needs are completely fulfilled.

When that happens the body cannot store the extra protein because the only storage places for protein is the muscle tissue/organs (and other structures), which cannot be rebuilt faster than a certain rate limited by your own natural biochemistry, and the free amino acid pool which can contain around 200g of protein at any given time.

When those stores are full the body has to either oxidize the amino acids (burn them as fuel) or preferably convert the amino acids into glucose for energy or storage.

When that happens, if your glycogen stores are full and that you are not burning the extra glucose from protein, it will be stored as fat.

Van_Bilderass

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Re: old dante
« Reply #59 on: June 02, 2008, 02:11:29 PM »
Hey it's Christian Thibadeau

Count Grishnackh

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Re: old dante
« Reply #60 on: June 02, 2008, 02:14:33 PM »
Just for clarity reasons (Thermic Effect of Food ) it takes about 25-26 calories burned thru digestion to process every 100 calories of protein....while its roughly 4.6 calories burned for the digestion of 100 calories of fats and carbs.

Four hundred grams of protein for a large 250 pound bodybuilder results in about 400 calories burned thru digestion which is equal to a robust one hour walking cardio session on a treadmill (for that large bodybuilder).  

Really? You spread that one hour cardio session throughout the entire waking day Dante? That's effective?

The thermogenic effect of consuming that amount of protein would be the equivalent of walking to the kitchen and getting it.   ::)


_bruce_

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Re: old dante
« Reply #61 on: June 02, 2008, 02:22:07 PM »
excess calories (no matter where they come from) are or can be stored as fat


hope this helps genius

Gluconeogenesis?
.

DOGGCRAPP

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Re: old dante
« Reply #62 on: June 02, 2008, 02:27:45 PM »
And (I have no idea why Im talking about this on this board, because it pretty much is bash away regardless of what is said) what if you looked at this from another view point instead of "cant"

What if you did create a demand that required the supply?
What if you did add key fat burning supplements like green tea/7-keto Dhea/caffiene etc etc etc that dramatically raised the metabolism over what it normally is?
What if you did do cardio regularly to become a musclebuilding fat burning furnace and it was possible to overreach with the nutrition end of things.....so you wouldnt be stuck in this "a little bit over BMR" bullshit?

My guys are gaining 15, 20, 25 pounds on their onstage bodyweights and it sure as hell isnt because i believe that bodybuilding is about eating along the lines of Joe regular who wants to keep in shape at 190lbs and a little bit over the BMR. Sorry but that doesnt make a gigantic bodybuilder muscularly. Extremes do. And with that way of doing things (getting to point b from point a the quickest) you have to shore up the detrimental sides of things (fat gain, any bad blood lipid results, dehydration) responsibly. It really isnt a hard concept unless you paint a little box around you and are unable to think outside of it.


CT

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Re: old dante
« Reply #63 on: June 02, 2008, 02:29:40 PM »
Gluconeogenesis?

Gluconeogenesis is a metabolic pathway that results in the generation of glucose from non-carbohydrate carbon substrates such as pyruvate, lactate, glycerol, and glucogenic amino acids.

The vast majority of gluconeogenesis takes place in the liver and, to a smaller extent, in the cortex of kidneys. This process occurs during periods of fasting, starvation, or intense exercise and is highly endergonic. Gluconeogenesis is often associated with ketosis


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis

Van_Bilderass

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Re: old dante
« Reply #64 on: June 02, 2008, 02:35:12 PM »
What if you did create a demand that required the supply?
What if you did add key fat burning supplements like green tea/7-keto Dhea/caffiene etc etc etc that dramatically raised the metabolism over what it normally is?
What if you did do cardio regularly to become a musclebuilding fat burning furnace and it was possible to overreach with the nutrition end of things.....so you wouldnt be stuck in this "a little bit over BMR" bullshit?

Well it seems to work for you so whatever the mechanism that's what matters. Now if you want to talk about scientific evidence that's another matter. Like with your food combining/carb cut-off theory it's kind of hard to conclusively prove with scientific evidence it's reducing fat gain.

MisterMagoo

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Re: old dante
« Reply #65 on: June 02, 2008, 02:35:25 PM »
235?.....235 what?  ounces?

I would expect you to not be impressed with my woman.......she's not a baboon with nostrils you can stick a quarter in 8)

keep in mind he's been on steroids for a while now. no, i'm not kidding.

DOGGCRAPP

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Re: old dante
« Reply #66 on: June 02, 2008, 02:41:09 PM »
Well it seems to work for you so whatever the mechanism that's what matters. Now if you want to talk about scientific evidence that's another matter. Like with your food combining/carb cut-off theory it's kind of hard to conclusively prove with scientific evidence it's reducing fat gain.

Already have answered this too many times to count so im just going to cut and paste my last answer to this.
I can only control who I personally train....and thats why i dont talk much about specifics of diet at all. I typed this last month after someone asked me about separating fats and carbs.

It is a basic way i can put out a "generalized" cookie cutter diet (which everyone always wants from me) to everyone. Alot of people dont know about glycemic index's and such....so I try to give the "masses" a simple approach to eating big (and not getting fat) for the people who really dont want to get down to "the nitty gritty" of it all. Some of you guys are learned.....alot of people arent and think a protein is a protein and a carb is a carb regardless of the food. They want it simple and dont want to learn the inside guts of why and when.

Do I use some fats with carbs in the people I train personally? yes

Is it a good generalized rule to follow on a grand scale so Johnny in Idaho who reads me and Frankie from Alabama who reads me both dont get fat? (even though they are both entirely different bodybuilders on a genetics and mesomorphic scale) ...yes

I admire Palumbo in that he can put a "cookie cutter diet" out there....I cannot do that...I would feel irresponsible and feel that its not working for 100% of the people reading me across the board.....he sets up some good ground rules though and I respect him greatly for it. Personally it bothers me if I put something up and its helping a guy 175lbs get to 225 but its making some endomorphic guy who is an overweight 240 get even fatter.....I cant sign off on a post knowing that. So you really dont see me say much in the way of detail unless i know the individual who is reading it exactly.

So what did i do for a solution? A basic simple outline for the 1000's of different people who might be reading a post by me. I cannot go thru them individually. Said to someone else not you Van: So since your the guy with all the answers feel free to put up a diet for the masses....one that will have your name attached to it for the next 10 years and will be cut and pasted everywhere on different bodybuilding boards. Knowing that some obese guy weighing 340 who has type 2 diabetes will be reading it and some Stickboy weighing 145lbs who cant put on weight no matter what he does will be reading it.......go right ahead and be my guest.....lets see the official Sporto diet that will work for everyone universally.

Alot of people dont want to learn the in's and out's of something they just want to be told what to do. You can do that with training pretty much. Its virtually impossible to do that with diets unless you know the specifics of that particular person (and I personally refuse to put a detailed cookie cutter program out there to the masses in which i know is not going to work 100% of the time). For anyone I dont personally train, the responsibility is on them to figure out their diets.

jason armstrong

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Re: old dante
« Reply #67 on: June 02, 2008, 03:06:49 PM »
keep in mind he's been on steroids for a while now. no, i'm not kidding.

yea we know.
A few years now all drugs and bloat his mommy finds out and he's gonna shrink so fast it'll be like a pin stuck in a ballon.

pop goes the cageekzle!!

Little b*tch. :D
1

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Re: old dante
« Reply #68 on: June 02, 2008, 03:56:51 PM »
Candid is melting all over the place - must be burning calories like a proteinpowered jet-engine.
Some good ideas here.

Q for Candid:
How many grams of protein do you take in daily?
Will you try to eat yourself up to 600g a day?
Does anybody know how JayCutler is able to eat so much food (10 meals ala 1000kkals) and still be lean.... how can he burn 10000kkals a day???
.

slaveboy1980

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Re: old dante
« Reply #69 on: June 02, 2008, 04:00:26 PM »
Well it seems to work for you so whatever the mechanism that's what matters. Now if you want to talk about scientific evidence that's another matter. Like with your food combining/carb cut-off theory it's kind of hard to conclusively prove with scientific evidence it's reducing fat gain.

it simply makes people eat less food. simple as that.

as for dante: you dont need to defend everything you written on every board. some of us actually understand that things change and you learn new things as the years go by. so relax dante and dont waste your energy on defending you "system" on every board. just let it go.

and for candizzle,  ::)


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Re: old dante
« Reply #70 on: June 02, 2008, 04:07:17 PM »
OKAY SMART GUY EXPLAIN TO ME HOW PROTEIN IS GOING TO MAKE YOU FAT

WHAT YOU SAID IS HORSESHIT...  

TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE BODYS HIGH DEMAND FOR PROTEIN, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HOW THE BODY DEALS WITH HUGE SURGES IN AMINO ACIDS (EXAMPLE= WHEY) , TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE HUGE THERMIC EFFECT OF DIGESTING PROTEIN, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE SLOW RATE OF DIGESTION MEAT HAS, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE TURNOVER RATIO OF PROTEIN INTO GLUCOSE, AND TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE RATE AT WHICH THAT TURNOVER OF AMINO ACIDS INTO GLUCOSE OCCURS

AND AGAIN, I ASK YOU, EXPLAIN TO ME HOW PROTEIN IS GOING TO MAKE YOU FAT


FUCKING MORON

Protein is broken down to its amino acids during digestion.  Any amino acids that are not needed for various forms of protein synthesis, neurotransmitter synthesis, peptide hormones, etc., etc. are converted to glucose.  

The insulin will sense the rise in blood glucose and begin producing insulin in a level commensurate with the blood sugar level.  

The insulin will activate an enzyme called acetyl-CoA carboxylase.  There are acetyl-CoA carboxylase I and II.  
Acetyl-CoA Carboxylase will form malonyl-CoA.  Malonyl-CoA is necessary for fat synthesis.  Malonyl CoA is like the routing director for fat to the mitochondria.  
When ACoA Carboxylase is lowered, malonyl-Coa production is lowered, increasing fatty acid transfer to the mitochondria for fat burning.

When malonyl CoA is elevated, it increases the production of fatty acids.

So, protein is converted to glucose, which is then converted to pyruvate, which is converted to Acetyl-CoA.  If the glucose level exceeds the needs for energy through Kreb's, and exceeds the need for glycogen synthesis, it will be converted to fatty acids by the process shown above.

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candidizzle

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Re: old dante
« Reply #71 on: June 02, 2008, 04:11:01 PM »
justin harris show me something that shows me that protein is converted into glucose at any kind of rate tha would result in excess glucose. 

in fact, show me that gluconeogensis is dependant on the presence of amino acids and NOT the abcense of glucose

like ketosis, im mst certain that the process occurs with the abcense of glucose, NOT the presence of amino acids(gluconeogensis), or fats (ketosis)



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Re: old dante
« Reply #72 on: June 02, 2008, 04:11:42 PM »
Protein is broken down to its amino acids during digestion.  Any amino acids that are not needed for various forms of protein synthesis, neurotransmitter synthesis, peptide hormones, etc., etc. are converted to glucose.  

The insulin will sense the rise in blood glucose and begin producing insulin in a level commensurate with the blood sugar level.  

The insulin will activate an enzyme called acetyl-CoA carboxylase.  There are acetyl-CoA carboxylase I and II.  
Acetyl-CoA Carboxylase will form malonyl-CoA.  Malonyl-CoA is necessary for fat synthesis.  Malonyl CoA is like the routing director for fat to the mitochondria.  
When ACoA Carboxylase is lowered, malonyl-Coa production is lowered, increasing fatty acid transfer to the mitochondria for fat burning.

When malonyl CoA is elevated, it increases the production of fatty acids.

So, protein is converted to glucose, which is then converted to pyruvate, which is converted to Acetyl-CoA.  If the glucose level exceeds the needs for energy through Kreb's, and exceeds the need for glycogen synthesis, it will be converted to fatty acids by the process shown above.



In layman's terms, excess protein can lead to fat gain.   ::)

candidizzle

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Re: old dante
« Reply #73 on: June 02, 2008, 04:13:27 PM »
KE INTO ACCOUNT THE BODYS HIGH DEMAND FOR PROTEIN, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HOW THE BODY DEALS WITH HUGE SURGES IN AMINO ACIDS (EXAMPLE= WHEY) , TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE HUGE THERMIC EFFECT OF DIGESTING PROTEIN, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE SLOW RATE OF DIGESTION MEAT HAS, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE TURNOVER RATIO OF PROTEIN INTO GLUCOSE, AND TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE RATE AT WHICH THAT TURNOVER OF AMINO ACIDS INTO GLUCOSE OCCURS

AND AGAIN, I ASK YOU, EXPLAIN TO ME HOW PROTEIN IS GOING TO MAKE YOU FAT


^^^^^
the above is the argument

protein wont make you fat


as for the theoritical ability for ingested amino acids to go through the processes leading to some fat storage, THAT WAS NOT THE ARGUMENT

but, i will argue that that process is purely hypothetical. and gluconeogensis is depndant on lack of glucose not presence of amino acids

howver i could be wrong and im waiting for some kind of study from the EXPERTS  :D

candidizzle

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Re: old dante
« Reply #74 on: June 02, 2008, 04:15:44 PM »

in fact, show me that gluconeogensis is dependant on the presence of amino acids and NOT the abcense of glucose





once you can prove this, then prove that the process (gluconeogenesis) occurs at such a rate where a sedentary person would have a glucose demand that is slower than that turn over...

and alos you gotta take into account that the turn over rate of amino acids to glucose is 2=1

so lets say, hypothetically, youve got 20 grams excess amino's. all of that is converted into glucose. you only have 10 grams glucose.

and that is a slow process too !!